Lost Isle RELEASED

Wow. You people really didnt get along. I am more with you Peteo. Custom Bosses. I really think it would have been a good idea to have the angry mother and father digdogger custom boss after you kill the normal ones. But I agree with DarkFlameWolf about the red mail in the master dome. Level 3 arrows aren't much of a reward. And it was kind of mean for you to change it behind her back.

Indeed. We both did and said stupid things, and hopefully those quotes showed that we both are to be blamed of the problems of LI, not just Wolfie or me.

But it is kind of fun to go through these old conversations and think how close the quest was to being cancelled, and how many times. Oh boy, and we still released the quest, and TOGETHER! We gave birth to a beautiful baby, didn't we Wolfie? ^_^

Petoe wrote:Indeed. We both did and said stupid things, and hopefully those quotes showed that we both are to be blamed of the problems of LI, not just Wolfie or me.

But it is kind of fun to go through these old conversations and think how close the quest was to being cancelled, and how many times. Oh boy, and we still released the quest, and TOGETHER! We gave birth to a beautiful baby, didn't we Wolfie? ^_^

Those conversations are one of the two reasons I've always been cynical of group quests. The first reason that I believe group quests are doomed is that no one has the time or dedication to finish quests anyway, and having a partner just means more talking and planning and less questing. The second is that ego and design will get in the way of accomplishing much. Thankfully, these two somehow beat the odds and produced a polished result.

If you're going to do a quest, someone's got to be totally in charge, and they have to be able to barrell ahead alone. Other people's help should be purely incidental, not a vital part. Hence why I'm happy to help with scripting on demand for someone who would finish the quest anyway, but wouldn't want to be in charge of any other part of a group quest.

While yall 2 are here, tell me something:

[spoiler]In the ending, it is revealed that orlach, in his morlach form attacked the village along with some grasps and flamgors, possibly magma lords too but none were pictured. The only thing about that is, how the fuck did he do that when he wasn't able to due to being sealed in the volcano, was it because of the town's proximity to it? And if so, how come he didn't at least try to kill link when he walked through it? He was clearly keeping a close eye on him and had to have detected his presence at least one of the times he was going through it.[/spoiler]

Ahahaha!!! That's some amusing conversation right there. Why the heck would you not want a custom boss in every level though? So far that's the only part I can't figure out.

I do disagree that group quests are doomed from the start though. It seems to me that this is a case of two very different quest makers working on a huge quest for so long that each has developed a unique vision of the end result. If you look back at some of those arguments they seem rather trivial and border on childish behavior at times.

Any more to post?

Yeah Gleeok, the conversations were extremely childish sometimes.
I can post more today as I'm sure people are interested and maybe we all can learn something from our battles and how we managed to solve them.

C-Dawg, after releasing LI I agree that if you start a group quest, someone must be in charge. It was a big mistake to "co-develop" Lost Isle together. Even though Wolfie seems really humble, we both have big egos and we both want to have things our way. At first I was supposed to only build a couple of dungeons for her, and I was okay with it, but then Wolfie had less and less time for the quest and in the end I ended up being the one to do most of the quest making and finishing the quest.
Now of course since I got so much responsibility and the status of a "co-developer", I grew attached to the quest so much that it felt like it became my quest. So of course I started adding my own ideas to the quest and kept questioning Wolfie's ideas and plans and things went downhill from there between us.

Anarchy:
[spoiler]Morlach led the attack to the village, true, but as you probably remember, Morlach isn't strong in his "out of Volcano" form so instead of doing the killing, he led his minions to the village to kill the villagers. You remember how Morlach attakcs Link after Lv4? Well it is possible for Morlach to ventrue outside of the volcano in this black cloud form and even do some harm, but he is not strong in that form because the physical form of Morlach is stuck inside the volcano, and he didn't really hurt Link, he just stunned him in frustration.[/spoiler]

My only request, Peteo, don't post the really harsh and extreme ones with the extreme cursing and massive fights. But you have to understand (to everyone else), that at the time, these issues may now seem trivial now that the quest is out, at the time, these were key design points for the quest. At one point, he wanted to expand the item base and add items like the hammer, hookshot, etc. because he wanted to expand the quest more than it already was. I wanted to keep it on the base-line items and keep it simple. You can still make a complex and deep quest without having to stuff it to the brim with every item imaginable. And I think we've proven that with Lost Isle. Anyhoo Peteo, do let me know next time which conversations you're posting, thanks.
Furthermore, that was correct what Peteo said, due to my training and induction into the military, I did have less time and had to turn more responsibility over to Peteo to help finish up the quest. But he was initially signed on to the quest 'not' as a co-developer but as a helper for the dungeons and graphics. But his position grew as a result of my absence and there is when the visions of ours clashed.

Indeed Wolfie.
And I will ask you next time before posting more of our convos. You're just not around much these days... or at least it seems like it.

PM on AGN or PureZC always works, I always respond to those. 😉 As well as email, you know how to contact me. :P

I emailed you. See if there's anything you don't want the public to know about....

Yeah that clarifies quite a bit and also:

[spoiler]I did know about the post LV4 attack on link, although as you said, it did little if any harm, so I considered it irrelevant[/spoiler]

Ok, here are a few more bits from our AIM convesations. With Wolfie's permission this time, so I had to leave the nastiest stuff out:

-Apr 14th 2007-
TOPIC - After threatening leaving the project (because of the Red Mail and MIDI debates we had), Wolfie is willing to talk again, and many topics are discussed in this conversation:

[06:10] DarkFlameWolfie: Petoe? you're sitting there acting silent and its unnerving me
[06:11] Peteo: What? Umm... I thought it was YOU who didnt want to talk to me... 😛 blarg
[06:11] DarkFlameWolfie: depends
[06:11] Peteo: Agh! Stop! not this again... >_<
[06:11] DarkFlameWolfie: XD
[06:12] Peteo: I guess you dont want to have anything to do with LI anymore, but I want to thank you for showimg some support for the quest at AGN. I still love you... 😊
[06:12] DarkFlameWolfie: look, about the music, about the mirror robe battle, about the red tunic, about all the things I've pissed you off on, here is my explanation for all of it:
[06:13] Peteo: yes?
[06:13] Peteo: and Im not pissed off at the mirror robe battle, thats wrong :P Isn't it you who is pissing off all the time? :P
[06:14] DarkFlameWolfie: yes, you are finalizing the quest, yes you should have a say in how it gets finalized, but the few things I've been putting my foot down on, are my LAST BITS of creativity as a co-partner in the quest to get some of my ideas in to still have it be 'mine' as well as 'yours.' But you over-ruling my fond ideas for the quest every single time now, really doesn't make me feel a part of the process anymore and makes me feel like that I no longer have any creative input on how the rest of the quest should go. I feel its been stolen away from me. So I would at least like some say in these last few bits that I have 'some' control over. That's all.
[06:20] Peteo: overruling your ideas every single time? >_<
Overreacting once again, are you??? why these minor things have to be so important for you? i just cant get it! I have respected your 12 point list well and I try to respect it definitely to the very end.
The red tunic wasnt on the list at all, and neither was the last boss midi... I really thought you wouldnt get upset over such minor changes... I mean, hell, all your caves and overwolrds are still pretty much intact... but youre getting upset over a few small changes... wtf? >_<
[06:21] DarkFlameWolfie: well, I should have left the 12 points open for more. Because I couldn't think that far ahead as to what would be important to me by the end of the project and which wouldn't.
[06:24] Peteo: Hey, I dont wanna lose you, and every day Im starting to understand you more and realizing that even the smallest changes I am making seem to be driving you away. But my intention is not to drive you away and upset you. I love you too much and youre a too valuable asset to LI!
But... I guess we both are such drama queens and overrect too easily. :P I guess we never meant to be togehter... but no matter what the God almighty intended, I wanna get LI released and i hope you will be part of it. i just have to wonder what all our problems are making our testers think... >_<
[06:25] DarkFlameWolfie: well, we're a married couple to them
[06:26] Peteo: Indeed! Always fighting, but in the end... it's hugs and kisses 😉
[06:26] DarkFlameWolfie: not entirely, I'm still not all happy.
[06:27] DarkFlameWolfie: my requests aren't that big, but you over-react that they are these huge things
[06:27] Peteo: okay, sorry for that 😞 but you can rest assurred that I will not add anything to the quest anymore... not change a thing anymore... the final things I wil still do to the quest:
- fix bugs of course
- build 4 Triforce dungeons
- build 3 bonus levels
[06:27] Peteo: thats all, no changes, no extra additions anymore. That's all I'm gonna do, that's a promise.
[06:27] Peteo: and if thats not enough for you, then I dunno what to say really.
[06:28] DarkFlameWolfie: I'm still lost in level 4. got a key on the outside of the fortress with a metal octorok
[06:28] DarkFlameWolfie: and now lost on what to do next
[06:29] Peteo: well doh, the point of Lv4 is that it is a huge, free dungeon. there are many ways around it. None of them are obvious though, but it makes the level better IMO.
[06:29] DarkFlameWolfie: well, I'm lost. I've drawn a map and still can't find new ways out of the old areas I've explored
[06:29] Peteo: as always with my levels... good god what Im gonna do! You truly suck at my levels, yet you wanted me to make levels for you in LI. :P
[06:34] DarkFlameWolfie: but maybe level 4 is too open. please, make a walkthrough
[06:34] Peteo: OMG! Dark nation!!! I got a PM from him! 😊
[06:34] Peteo: i love him! DN rules!
[06:35] DarkFlameWolfie: hmmm?
[06:35] Peteo: he said he would make a LI Beta for us if there's nothing major to fix!
[06:35] Peteo: ^_^
[06:35] DarkFlameWolfie: mirror robes *cough*
[06:36] Peteo: heh, well that's one issue. I have to PM back to him. I'm so glad he is expressing some interest to help us getting a stable Lost Isle released. ^_^ if we get a LI specific beta, then _L_ can do what ever the **** he wants to do with ZC... I don't care anymore.
[06:37] DarkFlameWolfie: and the others?
[06:39] Peteo: well the biggest ZC issue for me would be the fixation of the spin attack so we could use it in LI... Gleeok neck is another nasty bug... then the rest are very minor things... If DN is able to fix even one of these bugs, I'm more than happy.
[06:39] DarkFlameWolfie: yes, gleeok 2 has a nasty neck
[06:48] DarkFlameWolfie: ...
[06:50] Peteo: sorry, Im typing a leghty PM to DN.... I'll be back in a moment.
[06:51] DarkFlameWolfie: gotta go then, bye
[06:51] Peteo: you gotta go? Right now? Argh!!!
[06:51] *** "DarkFlameWolfie" signed off at Sat Apr 14 06:51:57 2007.

- Apr 3rd 2007 -
TOPIC - Another interesting debate, which eventually led to the heated MIDI battle in our later conversations that resulted in Wolfie quitting the project for a moment:

[16:13] DarkFlameWolfie: whats on your mind?
[16:14] Peteo: well for startes, how about adding some more Magic Shields? even one more? I beg!
[16:14] DarkFlameWolfie: O_o
[16:14] DarkFlameWolfie: whyez?
[16:15] Peteo: well, I got this idea after talking to synbios and playing the game myself.. it's so easy to have your shield eaten by a like like... er, Grasp :P
[16:15] DarkFlameWolfie: well, reduce them a bit silly boyo
[16:15] Peteo: Dammit! You just won't change your bloody mind. >_<
[16:15] Peteo: well anyhoo, another idea: the Final Boss midi could be better. I hate the current one you picked.
[16:16] DarkFlameWolfie: O_o
[16:16] DarkFlameWolfie: blarg it Petoe!
[16:16] DarkFlameWolfie: took me forever to find that one. 😞
[16:16] Peteo: no, Im serious about the midi
[16:16] Peteo: it sounds too "techno-ish" and it's a bit too... well... joyful in a way :P
[16:16] DarkFlameWolfie: I already agreed you could have a second midi as part 1 of his battle. But you said I could keep the second midi!
[16:16] DarkFlameWolfie: techno-ish? total bullshit on that reason
[16:17] DarkFlameWolfie: you have techno all for level 4's boss battles. :P
[16:17] Peteo: well thats a techno level you silly girl! :P
[16:17] DarkFlameWolfie: true, but the theme of techno has already been introduced and associated with Morlach's army
[16:17] Peteo: but really, the last midi has to go. Morlach deserves a better midi.
[16:17] DarkFlameWolfie: I told you that ice palace midi was the last midi swap, or did you miss that memo? >_<
[16:18] DarkFlameWolfie: I agree on the ice palace. And I fixed it. But I stand firm on this one. We will not change this midi.
[16:19] Peteo: no, believe me, as a maker of the final battle, it just doesnt work!
[16:19] DarkFlameWolfie: blarg
[16:19] DarkFlameWolfie: but I want that song in somewhere! O_o
[16:20] DarkFlameWolfie: it must be in, somewhere, somehow. So make THAT work. :P
[16:20] Peteo: well, its not a bad midi at all, but its not good for the awesome final fight... if you can somehow figure a way to use that midi somewhere else, Im all ears 😊
[16:20] DarkFlameWolfie: well, boss level 4? and the death knight battle of MD?
[16:21] Peteo: well, MD is like totally made by you so if you wish then of course! ^_^
[16:21] DarkFlameWolfie: what music did you use for boss 4?
[16:21] DarkFlameWolfie: if you say mine is techno-ish
[16:21] DarkFlameWolfie: wouldn't it work for him too?
[16:23] Peteo: well, not really, I think it's just a bit too upbeat and.. lightweight... lol, Im bad at explaining music but yeah, not quite right for a serious and tough battle like Lv4 boss.
[16:24] DarkFlameWolfie: >_> I was right, I got no say over you!
[16:24] DarkFlameWolfie: anyhoo...fine, put it down as the music for the death knight battle. and let me hear replacement midis for the final battle before you go choosing one. ok?
[16:24] Finnishflesh2: agh, shut up! Im not saying no just for fun. and I will let you have the current last boss midi as the Master Dome boss midi if you wish.
See? Im not all that bad! Ha! 😊
[16:25] DarkFlameWolfie: :P

- Jun 3rd 2007 -
TOPIC - Here we are talking about one of our side levels: The Catacombs. This conversation shows that sometimes we had pleasent and friendly conversations as well. 😉

[18:38] Peteo: Oops, more typos. Damn typos! >_< Im such a bum :P
[18:38] DarkFlameWolfie: you are a bumz, but you're a loveable bumz
[18:38] Peteo: thanks, dear
[18:38] DarkFlameWolfie: so how big is the catacombs gonna be?
[18:38] Peteo: 300 screens and 9 floors!
[18:38] DarkFlameWolfie: O_O
[18:38] Peteo: well not quite, just foolin with ya :P
[18:38] DarkFlameWolfie: you're kidding right?
[18:38] DarkFlameWolfie: max, 100 screens, the floor count doesnt matter
[18:39] Peteo: Im still planing that level.
[18:39] DarkFlameWolfie: well the floor count can go to 100, one for each screen if you REALLY wanted
[18:39] Peteo: Hey! Good that you spoke about catacombs!
[18:39] DarkFlameWolfie: but I don't want it THAT big
[18:40] DarkFlameWolfie: OMG
[18:40] DarkFlameWolfie: major idea burst
[18:40] DarkFlameWolfie: wanna hear? its about the catacombs
[18:40] Peteo: Wel here's my idea: The basic idea is the same as it was, except for the bottom floor... I want to make it a cave. You know... the dungeon part would be like a big tube going down to a hellish bottom cave.... Yeah, I had same kind of a hellish cave in MMDWR DC but I want to make a better one for LI!
[18:40] DarkFlameWolfie: Ok. I'll go with that, but about the 'big tube' up above
[18:40] Peteo: well?
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: I want to have that part live up to the 'catacombs' namesake
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: here's my idea
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: maybe 3 floors minimum, a maze on each floor, now here is how it'll work
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: maze can be varying size, up to you really
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: and you can get lose easily thanks to sidewarps taking you back the way you came if you make a wrong turn.
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: now, each floor has a special trick to finding your way through
[18:41] DarkFlameWolfie: like the number of torches on the walls for one maze
[18:42] DarkFlameWolfie: or the type of coffins in another floor, you go the direction which has the unqiue coffin on the screen, things like that
[18:42] DarkFlameWolfie: each catacombs maze has a quirk you must exploit to get through it safelty
[18:42] Peteo: a maze? you mean like the Zelda 1 maze that we used on wastelands? Up, down, down, left etc...?
[18:42] DarkFlameWolfie: god no
[18:42] Peteo: phew! ok, that would have been lame.
[18:42] DarkFlameWolfie: each maze 'screen' is unique
[18:43] DarkFlameWolfie: you just use sidewarps back whenever they make a wrong turn
[18:43] DarkFlameWolfie: so there may be multiple paths through several mazes, but you use the visual clues on screen to find your way through
[18:43] Peteo: Nice! My original plan was to make the Catacombs a very confusing, maze-like level, so your idea fits perfectly, lol ^_^
[18:44] DarkFlameWolfie: yes, but I say 3 floors
[18:44] DarkFlameWolfie: the mazes can be small to medium sized
[18:44] DarkFlameWolfie: each floor maze has its own UNIQUE clue on how to solve it
[18:44] Peteo: Noo! 😞 only 3 floors? what happened to the B1-B9 plan? Huh? :P
[18:44] DarkFlameWolfie: I think the players may get tired after 3 mazes
[18:44] DarkFlameWolfie: let's not test their patience shall we?
[18:46] Peteo: true, 3 mazes is enough, but I'd like to have smaller "extra floors" in between them if thats ok... I mean, the deeper you go, I think it just adds to the feeling that you're going down to the hell 😉
[18:46] DarkFlameWolfie: now if you want a few intermediate, smaller inbetween floors between mazes, then go ahead
[18:47] DarkFlameWolfie: LOL
[18:47] DarkFlameWolfie: wow, we think alike
[18:47] Peteo: Dammit, we do! This is one of those rare moments when we both agree on something! Haha!
[18:48] DarkFlameWolfie: ^_^
[18:49] Peteo: Allrighty!

Okay, so I finally figured out the little secrets in level one and was able to beat it; I got the ocarina and the gauntlets, I think I'm up to seven hearts and found the large quiver. I got to level 2, and have been wandering around but for the life of me can not figure out how to get anywhere! I saw the sign about "taking the fall" to get into the dark, but don't see anywhere to fall. Can anyone give me some clues as to how the devices in level two work? For example, what's with the flashing, multi-colored tiles? It seems like I can get on top of one of them, but can't with the rest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Great quest; extremely challenging, and I'm loving how detailed the mazes are!

The flashing tiles can be moved with the wand. Once you get on top of that one south of the entrance, go up the stairs and on the raised platform untill you get one screen above the entrance. Shoot the switch with an arrow. Then go back to the entrance, go north one screen, and jump into the pit. You will land in the dark side of the level. And the red and blue blocks go up and down when you hit the red and blue switches. I think that's all the mechanics of the level.

Petoe wrote:Ok, here are a few more bits from our AIM convesations. With Wolfie's permission this time, so I had to leave the nastiest stuff out:

Maybe you were too subtle, seeing as I had to do almost that entire level via trial and error. I STILL need to figure out what the clues were >_>

EDIT - Talking about the catacombs, of course.

jman2050 wrote:Maybe you were too subtle, seeing as I had to do almost that entire level via trial and error. I STILL need to figure out what the clues were >_>

EDIT - Talking about the catacombs, of course.

1st - the door that the knight statue gaurds.

2nd - This was particularly hard to pick up one, but there's a blood trial leading from the start of the maze, to the end, and it leads you to each respective door. What's so hard about it? Well it's not a solid trial, in fact, it's "spots" are scattered enough that you can easily look at a room over and over and miss it.

3rd - It's where the wind is coming from. To know where the wind is coming from, check the lights on the big torches, they should point opposite of wind direction(and a skinny light means up).

Indeed jman, the hints were subtle, but she wanted it that way... 😉
But I wonder why so many people went through the Catacombs via trial and error instead of asking help on the forums. Oh well, I guess beating the Catacombs feels more rewarding without any help.

stigmata: Getting anywhere on Level 2?

I figured the first one out, it wasn't hard to do. But the other two was simply trial and error for me.
I was told there is something else in the cultivists cave, yet, I've searched, and searched, and have yet to find anything but shop selling normally expensive stuff for a cheaper price and the mirror shield.
Other than that, is there something else I should look for? (Don't tell me what it is though, I want to be suprised! 😃)
Does it have something to do with a wall you can walk up?

Blaman wrote:
I was told there is something else in the cultivists cave, yet, I've searched, and searched, and have yet to find anything but shop selling normally expensive stuff for a cheaper price and the mirror shield.
Other than that, is there something else I should look for? (Don't tell me what it is though, I want to be suprised! 😃)

Ah, that something else was the super secret shop. Sorry, nothing else in there... 😃

Petoe wrote:stigmata: Getting anywhere on Level 2?

Petoe, yes starting to. I'm still just wandering aimlessly. I'm keeping my eyes open for the giant plant monster that I keep reading about in the forums. I'm sure I'll be posting for help again soon. 😃

Ah, the plant monster. That thing is a pest. When roots start coming out of the ground and hurting you, you know you're getting close. This plant monster was the closest DFW would let Peteo get to a custom boss for the level. Although the boss is semi custom. And trust me, don't worry about wandering aimlessly. That is how you get through the level. If you get stuck, Peteo has videos on how to get through the level on youtube.

Yeah, there are a couple of good help videos on Youtube, though some of them are a bit spoiler-ish so I don't advice watching them unless you really need help.

Level 2 can be confusing, but surprisingly many have hard time figuring out the level even though there are multiple ways of beating it. O_o

Thanks guys. I'm hoping to get some serious time to play tonight and tomorrow, so I'll let you know how the level goes.

All right. Good luck. Oh and a hint: When you're low on life, just walk a few screens south of the entrance and slash the bushes and grass in the garden. 😉

Okay, I wandered around for two h ours last night but did not get very far. I watched the youtube videos on finding the compass (which I already had) and the wand (which I need a key for) and I found the map, but wanted to know if I should be looking for a key first to get the wand and then get to the plant monster, or vice versa? Can I get some direction as to where each of those are?

the key you need requires you to beat said plant monster 😉

franpa wrote:the key you need requires you to beat said plant monster 😉

Ah, but where is said plant monster?

I believe it is on the northen part of the light side. Somebody else may be able to give you more specific directions.

russadwan wrote:I believe it is on the northen part of the light side. Somebody else may be able to give you more specific directions.

Found it, thanks Russadwan. It helps when you bomb in the right place.