Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

Imzogelmo wrote:How can one judge how hard is too hard?

And let me step back and say this "taking enemies out of the equation," as enemies are often artificially pumped up as a crutch (which I do not intend to do).
At what point is a puzzle "too hard"?

What if, at some advanced point in a quest, you are in a room, where you must bomb to get out, but for some reason the player ran out of bombs? Is that bad design?
I mean, at some point, isn't is just *expected* that you have stuff on hand that is needed?

Testers

A puzzle is too hard or badly designed when it stalls the flow of gameplay.

Yes, that is bad design. Bombs run out so you always have to deal with the possibility that the player doesn't have any.

8 blue wizzrobes in LV1 is probably "too hard" if you have to kill them all to get a key, unless it's not necessary or an optional room. It's a hard thing to gauge since good players will probably slice up the quest no problem, and crappy players will complain it's "too hard".

Bomb conservation sucks (it's no fun not being able to use items) so just give some out in nearby rooms, or if you can get stuck at all, make it a walk-through wall.

Well, analyzing my paths, I've been careful to leave a way out, except in this one place where you have to bomb to get out (due to a one-way path going in). I have 2 nearby open rooms with enemies that frequently drop bombs, and then a room just before the one-way shutter that gives you a bomb prize. Even so, I can envision someone foolhardy enough to waste all those bombs, or just never pick them up, and unlucky enough to not get any from the enemies. I know I would hate that, so I'm trying to come up with some way to work around it (and I consider it too much hand-holding to give them the bombs in the very room where they are needed). The walk-through option may be doable, I'll just have to think on it.

And I hear ya on the Blue Wizzrobes. I had some in my Level 5, and they were killing me more that I liked, so I took a few out. 😊

Imzogelmo wrote:Well, analyzing my paths, I've been careful to leave a way out, except in this one place where you have to bomb to get out (due to a one-way path going in).

There are ways to ensure a player never gets trapped without ruining your puzzle. Include an 'exit' walkthrough wall that leads to a previous room, or a passageway staircase that takes the player back to the dungeon entrance. Or... a push-block that'll re-open the shutter. The escapes don't have to be obvious, but they should be there to prevent the player from being forced to reset their game.

Yes, just advancing will be non-obvious in some cases. The path I mention is a punishment-path, for someone who went the wrong way. At any rate, I've edited that part so that it's impossible to get permanently stuck (but it will be quite a bit harder if you did run out of bombs).

I plan on entering, but this will be my first ever created quest, so it might show big time and I'll be extremely pleased if I don't finish dead last in any of those catergories that Nightmare listed

I have so many little ideas that just translate bad into the big picture of a completed quest. I wish I got in on this sooner that I could tag team with someone

Updated: Gleeok and SUCCESSOR out, DQ possibilies added

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. BigJoe
2. Chris Miller
3. Nightmare

In Progress:
1. DCSyxx 9still haven't finished Lv. 1 so I don't know where to place his difficulty yet, so far looks like large levels and hard bosses)

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. ZCFan
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

Sorry for the double, but thought I'd re-iterate this so even the PureZC people can see this:

JUST BECAUSE YOUR QUEST IS DQ WORTHY DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T POSSIBLY GOOD OR EXCELLENT! I in particular LOVED CJC's quest, but sad to say it didn't follow the specs very well and time's becoming a serious issue in playing all of these. I know there's an audience to deal with, but some of these might make for awesome custom quests down the line. It's just, just as in a real game making, there's a design document that people have to follow when making a game, and this one was specifically a Zelda style quest.

I think there could be some serious custom quests made, hell, I'd like to see CJC's with a modified set and the Z1 Overworld, it'd be awesome. I'd play it again.

-James

Updated:Through Shoelace's

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare
4. DCSyxx

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe
4. DCSyxx

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. DCSyxx
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. Nightmare

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. Shoelace
2. ZCFan
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

Nightmare wrote:Didn't follow the specs
...
Serious custom quests made, hell, I'd like to see CJC's with a modified set and the Z1 Overworld, it'd be awesome. I'd play it again.

-James

But I follow you. I'm doing some spriting in passing towards a pseud0-cl4ssic tileset (flat colors, but more of them) that I'll debut with this quest as the seed. I actually feel most of the classic overworld and dungeon tiles are really good... the overall presentation suffers do to the undeatailed nature of the moving components (admittedly a shortcoming of the system that bore the original game).

Anyway, more people have to play and reject my quest before it can be disqualified! I've made a minor palette correction (for the save icon, it was inconsistent) and some small tweaks to make Level 2 less of a murderbox (there are now three entrances to both the bow and arrow item rooms, the last being blatantly obvious if you somehow get past the Pols without it) and I will supply an updated file when I get a chance.

CJC wrote:I'll have you know I did not break a single rule in the contest! My palettes, scripts, and tiles are all presented in the Z1 style. The only thing that's wonky is my dungeon floors.

But I follow you. I'm doing some spriting in passing towards a pseud0-cl4ssic tileset (flat colors, but more of them) that I'll debut with this quest as the seed. I actually feel most of the classic overworld and dungeon tiles are really good... the overall presentation suffers do to the undeatailed nature of the moving components (admittedly a shortcoming of the system that bore the original game).

Anyway, more people have to play and reject my quest before it can be disqualified! I've made a minor palette correction (for the save icon, it was inconsistent) and some small tweaks to make Level 2 less of a murderbox (there are now three entrances to both the bow and arrow item rooms, the last being blatantly obvious if you somehow get past the Pols without it) and I will supply an updated file when I get a chance.

Hold up just a second. I decided to have a meeting with Gleeok over certain things, he will announce them soon. Get in chat if you can.

-James

I still think I didn't break any rules as I was very careful with all of the wordings. However, the one part of the rules of: "Rules can change based on Judges." This is where I feel the judges will say I found work arounds. But I still think I stuck to it. 😉

Either way, I am happy I made a good game and I hope people enjoy it. It is not Hero of Dreams, but with the limitations, I think it is awesome. 😃

Well it seems that Gleeok wants a quest that looks very much like it would appear in the original game if you beat it four times previously. I don't even understand for sure what it is he wants though. I generally try to keep out of all this and have little interest.

The rules are simply a more lenient and up-to-date version of the 4th quest rules taking into account all the newer features of 2.5 (which [the 4th rules] were an up-to-date ruleset of the 3rd contest -- which was based on the 2nd quest etc.). The current rules and ZC features still allow for an unprecedented amount of creativity and customization over the 3rd quest rules, for example. I certainly don't have a predisposed idea of an archetypal 5th that quests must conform to or face the consequences. Don't assume that [MENTION=40954]King Aquamentus[/MENTION]. :P

Sorry, I've been either out-of-town or busy the last 3 weeks so I haven't been to very active during that time... Anyway, as it stands now there's a few issues with some entries (I haven't had time to go through all of them yet, sorry) which need to be fixed:
CJC: Overworld contains additional maze paths.
Shoelace: Dungeon screens were required to have 4 walls and not be freeform.
Pete&Wally: Custom Overworld issue (displaced and modified screens).

Edit: Ninjad

Shoelace: Dungeon screens were required to have 4 walls and not be freeform.

I did follow that rule. 😉

Gleeok, it wasn't a freeform thing, Shoelace had a lot of custom tiles (around the tune of a good 25-50%).

Sorry for not being clear enough.

-James

Shoelace wrote:I did follow that rule. 😉

....

Well... technically if you can't swim you've basically got four walls. Whether or not it's freeform depends on how 'freeform' is interpreted, though I'd guess that most would call that freeform.

I didn't think that would be freeform. Well that is an easy fix. If that is all in my game that is wrong I can fix that in a half hour. Just let me know.

About custom tiles. I really only made like a couple but kept it true to nes. That would be like less than 1% custom.

Again if it minor things like the water thing that is fixable, then that's no problem. But if my combo cycling is too much and such then I will have to eat it. But I can't see using layers as a problem because of the quest rules that were allowed. 😊

Here's my pathetic entry

http://hornet.sandhills.edu/mcswainte/zeldaI/T5%20(2).qst

Gleeok wrote:Sorry, I've been either out-of-town or busy the last 3 weeks so I haven't been to very active during that time... Anyway, as it stands now there's a few issues with some entries (I haven't had time to go through all of them yet, sorry) which need to be fixed:
CJC: Overworld contains additional maze paths.

Gleeok wrote:Overworld
In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place. You can change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool.

Specific Overworld Rules
* One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
"Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
* One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
* One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.

Gleeok wrote:Judging
* The first round of judging will be performed by judges, entrants, and the community, ideally eliminating all but the top three or four candidates. Picking a winner from the finalists will be handled much in the same way except with much more diligence. Anyone voting for the final quest should have played every entry in it's entirety. Public votes will be tallied and weighed as appropriately by any official judges and developers, and a winner will be decided. Finally, everyone can have a vote!
(Disclaimer: Some possible issues from this method may arise when a very strong 5th candidate does not make the first cut due to being underplayed or unpopular for any unknown or unforeseeable reason. Therefore, in order to maintain complete fairness for all entrants, no entry will be able to lose simply from lack of votes (lack of vote does not also imply non-vote), and judges reserve the right to un-eliminate any quest deemed worthy.)

Other misc. criteria for rejection
* The biggest changes here is obviously the fact that scripting is allowed. I cannot stress enough that you don't want to "over-script" or alter landmark LOZ mechanics in any way, in which case it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too easy it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too hard it will be rejected. (Although I have to note that the hardest entry to date was AlphaDawg's entry... and that won!)

* Note - Rejected quests are not disqualified. If your quest is rejected for one of possible various reasons (also reserved for judges discretion) that doesn't break any obvious rules stated above, you will have an opportunity to fix any problems and resubmit the quest, no questions asked.

CJC wrote:I think it would be interesting if 5th quest had the freedom to change the classic 'lost woods' maze screens. Any screen with four exits at a choke-point on the Overworld should be fair game for a new maze, especially one that breaks the two classic "up, up" and "north, west, south, west" paths.

Two that come to mind are the screens just before the classic entrance to Level 2: 4D and 5D.

Screen 68 is another good choke-point that would work well for a maze. You can navigate around it, but only by braving the beach.

There are a few others spots where modification for the purpose of adding a maze should be allowed. For example, screen 3B (the upper corner of the four-screen desert) would make a good maze choke-point with just some slight layout modification (to fix walkability problems from wraparound).

Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

Gleeok wrote:

CJC wrote:Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

Someone did that before! It was not fun and I quit playing it. No! :P)

The rules regarding the overworld say nothing about maze restriction. I explicitly asked about changing the mazes when we first discussed the rules. Your only response was in rejection of two adjacent maze paths. Therefore, your claim that my placement of mazes on the overworld disqualifies my entry is a judge ruling, which means it requires approval of the majority of the judging panel to be grounds for disqualification. Since no judging panel will be established before the general vote is complete, my quest cannot be disqualified on these grounds at this time.

On another note, I think it�s pretty bogus that you would drop these additional rules as proclamations on competitors who submitted early (in my case, a MONTH before the deadline) with three days left in the contest. So I stand by my original statement: any additional rules you would levy at this point in the contest are judge rules and need to be approved by majority vote.

If people hate the mazes on my overworld, I'll be eliminated by the popular vote. Don't dump me from competing before the contest even starts.

I just want to bring up one thing bugging me about this contest. I thought I'd elaborate on this more:

I have found almost all of the entires following more of a New Quest'ish type of power curve for enemies rather than levels sticking to mostly enemy groups that were presented on the NES. While this is very cool in a custom quest, for a Legend of Zelda quest this is kinda bad news and part of an NES limitation by memory and I think people have been abusing the heck out of this.

For everyone's information, I thought I'd post this to make it more clear (according to the 1st Quest groups):
Level 1, 2, 7: Blue and Red Goriya, Stalfos 1 and 2, Rope and Flashing Rope, Keese and Bat, Zol and Gel
Level 3, 5, 8: Blue and Red Darknut, Pols Voice, Gibdo, Keese, Zol and Gel
Level 4, 6, 9: Blue and Red Wizzrobe, Vire, Keese, Zol and Gel, Like-Like

While this isn't going to get anyone disqualified by any means, this is perturbing me a bit as a judge that people didn't seem to follow this at all. I know there is a line "Rules are made to be broken" (which I even posted in my quest), but there should be a little more respect given to this fact. The fact it's been thrown out of the window, and this is a real NES restriction, bothers me quite a lot.

Megamixing 9 isn't going to hurt much. The other levels, probably.

It also might be OK to switch colors, as long as the enemy groups are respected to some degree (as I did in my quest because my Level 9 was blue instead of white/red, so I put a Goriya level in the place of that).

Just thought I'd pass this on, since I'm probably going to have a pretty big say in judging from playing most of these.

-James

I admit, I have thrown that restriction out for the most part as well, but I have tried to have vaguely "themed" enemy groups per level. I didn't do anything crazy like put Wizzrobes and Darknuts together. I chose enemies on two criteria: difficulty and terrain. Basically, involving the controlling of when certain enemies get introduced, and keeping certain groups as the primary go-to enemy of the level. And, if that weren't confusing enough, I generally have one room in a dungeon that completely throws that out the window. It's part of the whole "keep them on their toes" mentality. I have sometimes used the old NES strategy of downgrading enemies by leaving and returning to the advantage of the player (at the cost of backtracking and taking more time, you increase your survivability--seems a fair tradeoff. If I don't want you to do that, I make it impossible or impractical).

My understanding is that it has to "look" NES-like, but if ZQ can do it, and no rules prevent it, then it is legal. Of course, authenticity is part of the grading, but pushing the limits just a bit beyond 4th quest is also one of the goals, yes?

On a different note, isn't one of the "rules" that level 9 must be the white/red color scheme?

I don't see why White/Red is one of the rules, as I've brought this up to Gleeok before. There is nothing on the NES cartridge restricting this for the hardest enemy group and is I think mostly there for tradition.

And to clarify: It's not a DQ, but enemy groups are a big part of the grading according to the people I've talked to or heard from so far.

I think it should be out. I know in my quest I used Lv. 1's color for a reason (if you play my quest you'd understand why, integral to the story)

-James

Updated:Through Travster's

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller
4. Travster
5. DCSyxx

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare
4. Travster
5. DCSyxx

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx
5. Travster

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe
4. Travster
5. DCSyxx

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. DCSyxx
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. Travster
5. Nightmare

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. Shoelace
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

Updated judging scores (excluding my own for bias reasons): (updated after BigJoe's revamp)

1. BigJoe: 90.0%
2. Chris Miller: 80.0%
3. CJC (if he fixes his maze paths): 51.0%
4. DCSyxx: 49.67%
5. Travster: 46.67%

I look forward to playing it, but I gotta put the finishing touches on mine first (time's almost out!) 😊

I know I took the level enemy theme and just definstreated it

[MENTION=39330]CJC[/MENTION]: I know what it says:

"In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside [from] that must be the same."

I don't know why it's such a big issue. Personally, I don't really care one way or another; it's just that the rules need to be changed if they are allowed. (They were off-limits in the previous contests as well)