Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

These are just my opinions, but here are some things I'd like to see:

- The overall format of the quest stays the same: 9 dungeons, must complete 1-8 to access the 9th.

- Standard quest rules (1st + 2nd quest) and classic tileset.

- All of the classic Z1 items should be present, but new items such as the hookshot are allowed. I'm not sure what items are available nowadays, so there may be need to be some exceptions to this rule.

- No scripting or cutscenes. This is to keep the presentation consistent with Zelda 1.

- Overworld should be the same as in the 1st and 2nd quest, with the allowance for 2 screens to be modified. Modifications should be free-form (not have to be a copy of some other screen on the overworld).

- Dungeons design (block placement, enemy types) should be up to the quest creator. New enemies should be allowed (within reason, as with new items). Any dungeon can have up to 2 items, to make room for any new items included.

- Link starts in the same screen as usual, and the first cave contains the Wooden Sword. Please none of this "swordless Link" bullshit!

I was mostly waiting until 2-week mania subsided at pzc, since the best/most entrants would arguably come from there. Regardless of that, we need a team of volunteer judges and a workable rule-set. While we have until the end of the contest to stock up on judges, the rules need to be priority one.

For judging, the minimum requirements should be that you have to be able to beat 3rd and 4th quests. ...And for some reason I can't find the 4th quest contest thread. :\

[edit] Ninja'd by Glenn while I was looking for the 4th quest thread.

Scripting should be allowed. In fact, scripting is the only way to do more subtle changes to rooms/puzzles, etc.

I would have to say no to the requirement to being able to beat the 3rd quest, primarily because of how crazy it is. While the difficulty should still be there (I somehow specialise in crazy difficulty. Anyone who played my old Platinum and Diamond quests can tell you how!), but having to beat the 3rd shouldn't be a requirement.

I agree to many of the other restrictions, including the starting screen one. Swordless is fun for a while, but then it gets old.

Also, can we edit existing enemies and items (so long it is reasonable). If so, then anyone who actually played Zelda's Last Wish will know exactly what I am going to do to the Lynels :evil:

I for one would like to see the Wooden Sword NOT be on Screen 1. Use your head!

Anyway, enemy editor yes (providing the enemies are NES-like, use your head), start on the same screen, classic palette, no improved music and stuff, NES rules.

I haven't played through the 4th, but I think the enemy "groups" should be the same as the NES. Example: Goriyas, Stalfos, Ropes, Wall Masters in Lv. 1 color, Lv. 2 color, and Lv. 7 color, Darknuts, Gibdos, Pols Voice in Lv. 3, Lv. 5, and Lv. 8 color, Wizzrobes, Vires, Like-Likes, Lanmolas in Lv. 4, Lv. 6, and Lv. 9 color. Bosses can be used anywhere. If you're having issues with balance use the enemy editor to correct it!

No dual or more bosses!

I think scripting should be OK, as long as "it's in the spirit of the NES" (like if you do a BS Aquamentus, it's passable). From what little in the 4th I played I saw scripting and enemy editor use.

I gave a teaser to SUCCESSOR about a possible 5th Quest. I'm waiting to hear back on it.

-James

Glenn the Great wrote:These are just my opinions, but here are some things I'd like to see:

- The overall format of the quest stays the same: 9 dungeons, must complete 1-8 to access the 9th.

- Standard quest rules (1st + 2nd quest) and classic tileset.

- Dungeons design (block placement, enemy types) should be up to the quest creator. New enemies should be allowed (within reason, as with new items). Any dungeon can have up to 2 items, to make room for any new items included.

I agree with these. I would say the graphics included in 2.5 are all fair game. NES rules and NES style dungeons.

Glenn the Great wrote:
- All of the classic Z1 items should be present, but new items such as the hookshot are allowed. I'm not sure what items are available nowadays, so there may be need to be some exceptions to this rule.

- No scripting or cutscenes. This is to keep the presentation consistent with Zelda 1.

- Overworld should be the same as in the 1st and 2nd quest, with the allowance for 2 screens to be modified. Modifications should be free-form (not have to be a copy of some other screen on the overworld).

- Link starts in the same screen as usual, and the first cave contains the Wooden Sword. Please none of this "swordless Link" bullshit!

Not so much these. I don't agree with requiring all Z1 items. If someone doesn't want to include the wand or boomerang what would it matter much? I'd personally like to see new items with the item editor. I also would like to see more leniency with the overworld. Maybe a limit on original screen but also allow some rearranging and tweaking. I think scripting should not only be allowed but encouraged or required. We are finishing the Nth quests with a bang! Obviously items or scripts that interfere with the with Z1 gameplay or feel would be barred. Definitely no cutscenes. Do we really need to force people to start Link and the sword at the same place? I agree with you on the no swordless Link thing. The sword should be easily available at the start of the quest..

Gleeok wrote:I was mostly waiting until 2-week mania subsided at pzc, since the best/most entrants would arguably come from there. Regardless of that, we need a team of volunteer judges and a workable rule-set. While we have until the end of the contest to stock up on judges, the rules need to be priority one.

This topic is just to get the rules layed down. Once we do then we will start figuring who, when, and how. In any case the 2 week contest is about over right? People are playing the quests and voting so that should be wrapped up soon, right?

Orithan wrote:I would have to say no to the requirement to being able to beat the 3rd quest, primarily because of how crazy it is.

I'm sorry but I agree with Gleeok. A judge for this contest should be able to complete 3rd and should have also completed 4th. We don't want a judge who will trash quests because they are too difficult for him/her.

[edit] Yeah, the 2-week think should be over in a week or two.

SUCCESSOR wrote:
I'm sorry but I agree with Gleeok. A judge for this contest should be able to complete 3rd and should have also completed 4th. We don't want a judge who will trash quests because they are too difficult for him/her.

Yeah. I also meant they had to of completed them. For example: QuestWizard basically won the 4th contest[1] *see below*, and you really get a feeling in a few spots of the 3rd quest sort of lingering on in a few dungeons, kind of like the second quest quoting the first, but to a lesser extent.

[1]: QuestWizard was the winner, however it was slightly undecided because of the fact that QW had "the worst overworld" and HoF had "the best". Hence the proposed merger and quest file by _L_.

Also, can anyone find the blasted 4th quest contest thread!!? Gah! ...it had the previous rules in it.

I couldn't tell you where the Fourth Quest topic is because frankly I've never seen it. It happen during my absence from AGN and ZC.

I think it would be interesting if 5th quest had the freedom to change the classic 'lost woods' maze screens. Any screen with four exits at a choke-point on the Overworld should be fair game for a new maze, especially one that breaks the two classic "up, up" and "north, west, south, west" paths.

Two that come to mind are the screens just before the classic entrance to Level 2: 4D and 5D.

Screen 68 is another good choke-point that would work well for a maze. You can navigate around it, but only by braving the beach.

There are a few others spots where modification for the purpose of adding a maze should be allowed. For example, screen 3B (the upper corner of the four-screen desert) would make a good maze choke-point with just some slight layout modification (to fix walkability problems from wraparound).

Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

CJC wrote:I think it would be interesting if 5th quest had the freedom to change the classic 'lost woods' maze screens. Any screen with four exits at a choke-point on the Overworld should be fair game for a new maze, especially one that breaks the two classic "up, up" and "north, west, south, west" paths.

Two that come to mind are the screens just before the classic entrance to Level 2: 4D and 5D.

Screen 68 is another good choke-point that would work well for a maze. You can navigate around it, but only by braving the beach.

There are a few others spots where modification for the purpose of adding a maze should be allowed. For example, screen 3B (the upper corner of the four-screen desert) would make a good maze choke-point with just some slight layout modification (to fix walkability problems from wraparound).

I'm all for this.

Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

I don't know how I feel about this.

CJC wrote:
Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

Someone did that before! It was not fun and I quit playing it. No! :P

...I'm starting to think the 4th thread was archived and/or deleted. Google also fails, and archive.org did not archive much of early 2009 (january?)

Is there anyone around who judged or participated in Fourth Quest Contest?

I don't know where it would have been archived. Not that I looked through all of it I just didn't see anywhere that it would be.

Personally, if I could use the Demo Tileset for the 5th Quest that'd be a godsend, but honestly, that would be asking for too much.

-James

Good question. I was. QuestWizard is around at purezc still. I don't know of anyone else, though, probably because of name-changes becoming all the rage, but I could be wrong.

I swore it was started by jman2050 or _L_, so I also did a thread search for them as well. Oh well. I should be able to recreate them (which will need to be updated for sure).

Doesn't [MENTION=38700]jman2050[/MENTION] poke his head around every now and then?

What tiles are there in the Demo Tileset? Personally I think editing the palette would be okay if it stayed within the same number of colors. I don't know how anyone else feels about that.

Gleeok wrote:...I'm starting to think the 4th thread was archived and/or deleted. Google also fails, and archive.org did not archive much of early 2009 (january?)

SUCCESSOR wrote:I don't know where it would have been archived. Not that I looked through all of it I just didn't see anywhere that it would be.

It could be in one of the forums under Private Archives. You can only see them in the Admin CP, they are not indexed by search, and are also set up currently to be browseable only by Super Administrators.

Yeah, I am aware. I was speaking of the forums that have been archived. I don't see why it would be in ZC Suggestions, Bugs, or Scripting.

It wasn't. Guess where it was?! That's right: Beta Discussion. (*Smacks whomever put that into the private archive with a giant rubber mallet*)

Anyway, I've fixed it. It's viewable here: http://armageddongames.net/showthread.php?90847-The-Official-4th-Quest-Contest

Give me a few minutes to work up a rough draft.

CJC wrote:
Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

I'm actually doing something similar to this in my quest... Although, I'm not so sadistic as to make people piece out and memorize all 12 mazes...

May we please have Slash->Nothing and "Slash->Secret" combos if possible and maybe for dungeon entrances? (Slash->Item is definitely out). This would make for some interesting puzzles and add some flavor.

-James

Whew! Okay guys, lets weed out and append to it. I've removed outdated or redundant rules, and added in new rules and requirements. They are also categorized by sections now as well.

5th-Quest-Contest-Rules-First Draft

Quest rules
The following rules may be turned on or off at the quest designers discretion:
"Fast Dungeon Scrolling", "Smooth Vertical Scrolling", "FFC Are Visible While Screen Is Scrolling", "Use Warp Return Points Only", "Invincible Link flickers", "Warps Ignore Arrival X/Y Position When Setting Continue Screen", "Can't push blocks into unwalkable combos", "Push blocks don't move when blocked", "Damage Combos Work On Layers", "Combo cycling on layers", "Scrolling warps don't set the continue point", "Use Old-style warp detection", "Rings affect damage combos", "Multi-directional traps", "Fast Heart refill".

The following rules must be ENABLED: "Items Disappear during hold-up".
All other quest rules must be DISABLED.

Graphics
The original NES Zelda graphical style must remain intact. What this means is that you must use the Classic NES tileset, and are allowed
to create new graphics as long as the changes are minor (judges discretion) and said changes maintain the aesthetic style of the original
game (also judge's discretion).

Shops
You can edit the Shop Types, but shops can't sell "+Max" items (heart containers), Triforce fragments, the big Triforce, the Dust Pile, the Rupee items (?!), Arrow Ammunition or Magic Jars (because the True Arrows / Magic rules are off), and Misc items.
* The same restrictions apply to "Take Only One" Room Types, but they can have "+Max" items in them.
* The same restrictions also apply to Item Drop Sets. Also, Item Drop Sets can't contain items with the "Equipment Item" flag checked.

Enemies
New enemies ARE allowed, and are in fact, mandatory. At least three new enemy types must be introduced. (In the same spirit as 2nd quest which introduced Sword-Stalfos, and Blue/Red Bubbles.) New enemies introduced from the 4th quest are not to be considered "new" and will not count towards this total, or otherwise detract from your own customized creations as well. (You've played the 4th quest, right?)
However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.

Specific Enemy Rules
* No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid). Also, no enemies that split into bosses, and no enemies that grow into bosses.
* Custom bosses (defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.

Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is likely not.

Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.

Overworld
In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place. You can change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool.

Specific Overworld Rules
* One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
"Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
* One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
* One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.

Dungeons
Dungeons may be made as large or small as one wants and with any room configuration one wants, but the design of any particular room must be consistent with the first four quests. This means one wall on each side, one door of any type at most situated on a wall. The contents of a particular room are left to the designs of the quest maker, but as with the graphics and added items/enemies, faithfulness to the NES design is paramount. Conveyors may be okay. Large superstructures that require the use of several items to destroy may not.

Specific Dungeon Rules
* One DMap per dungeon level! And all DMap Flags must be disabled for dungeon DMaps.
* The Continue screen must be the dungeon's inner entrance screen.
* The Compass Marker screen must be the Triforce Fragment's screen.
* The Triforce Fragment's screen must warp Link to the dungeon's entrance in the overworld. (This is done by setting Side Warp A, by the way.)
* The statue combos in the dungeon's inner entrance screen and the Triforce Fragment's screen cannot shoot fireballs.
* No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.
* All dungeon DMaps must be "NES Dungeon". So no Interiors with persistent secrets and non-functioning doors.
* Don't use the "Treat as Interior Room" flag to bypass various limitations of the "NES Dungeon" DMap type, either.
* There must be exactly 9 levels; no more, no less. Each level must have a map and a compass. You must use boss keys and boss doors. Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss, one triforce piece, and at least one collectable item. The ninth level must only be accessible by collecting all eight triforce pieces. The boss of level 9 must be Ganon, and the
final goal of level 9, and the quest, is to save Zelda.
* Levels must use one of the NES dungeon palettes, and two or more levels can't use the same palette. Level 9 must use "White/Red".
* One Ganon per quest, and one Zelda per quest.
* A "Level 9 Entrance" screen must appear somewhere in Level 9 between the dungeon entrance and Ganon's screen, and can only be used once.

FFCs and Scripts
FFCs and scripts ARE also allowed (Heck even the first quest uses a script to simulate a bug found in the NES version!) with the following exceptions:
* Scripts may not be used to bypass or otherwise ignore any other contest rules.
* Scripts should be used sparringly.
What is permissible script usage you say? Well, for starters, scripting a giant man-eating plant or a wall that shoots streams of fireballs will not be acceptable. Scripting a door that spawns enemies will likely not be allowed. Adding a script to simulate a puzzle found in 2nd quest where you can only go to the nearest three of four immediate rooms without requiring to fill the room with push blocks might be okay. (honestly, I don't know!)

Other
Link can only use NES-style movement and cannot use any of the 2.5 specific modifications (16x16 Link, big link, etc).
Sound Effects cannot be changed.
The Sub-screen may be edited to accommodate new items but must retain the general structure of the original.
New music may be used as long as long it fits in the context of an NES game.
No string control codes, and no lowercase characters in strings. No DMap Intro strings, and no DMap-specific custom minimaps. And no DMap item disabling!

Other misc. criteria for rejection
* If your quest is too easy it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too hard it wil be rejected. (Although I have to note that the hardest entry to date was AlphaDawg's entry... and that won!)

* Note - Rejected quests are not disqualified. If your quest is rejected for one of possible various reasons (also reserved for judges discretion) that doesn't break any obvious rules stated above, you will have an opportunity to fix any problems and resubmit the quest, no questions asked.

Thoughts?

Gleeok wrote:However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.

There goes my idea to use Death Knights and enemy placement flags to create deadly enemy barriers on the overworld map!

...Just kidding, I think this contest is a little too restrictive for me. Plus, I've never made a quest that was more difficult than eating a sandwich.

CJC wrote:There goes my idea to use Death Knights and enemy placement flags to create deadly enemy barriers on the overworld map!

...Just kidding, I think this contest is a little too restrictive for me. Plus, I've never made a quest that was more difficult than eating a sandwich.

I'll have you know that this is the least restrictive guideline yet!

(What is too restrictive, exactly?)

Gleeok wrote:(What is too restrictive, exactly?)

It's not something that can be changed, given the nature of the contest. The classic overworld and tileset are just tools that I'm not comfortable using.
But if it makes you feel better, I WILL be actively participating in the other bundled quest project, "Brand New World"

On an unrelated note, I think Fifth Quest's icon should be Link and Zelda doing a high-five! ...Or maybe just holding their hands in the air, like at the end of the game.

A couple of questions:
Are you allowed to create multi-stage enemies? Say I want to recreate the Kandokyan enemy from Oracle of Ages (that candle-head enemy seen in levels 6 and 8) and I want to use three separate slots in the enemy editor to create it; A first stage where you must light it's wick up (with a Candle or something similar) where it "splits" into a second stage where it runs around madly and is invincible until it "tribbles" into a 0hp "third stage" enemy with its death effect set to "Explode", would that be allowed?
Are you allowed to modify existing enemies or items. Say I want to nerf the Wand to put into Level 3 and make the Blue Lynel immune to the Boomerang, would you allow that?

Gleeok wrote:* No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.

This is actually the only one I disagree with. I think, properly done, this could be used as an extension to the classic feel.

And on the topic of mazes, I once made a dungeon with a maze to solve in it, and I felt like that worked really well.

As for scripting, would it be acceptable to make a scripted fireball shooter, to more closely match the behavior of the original LoZ statues?
(At one time I had modified Saffith's Homing Fireball Shooter script to add parameters for their safe zone and firing angle, but I seem to have lost that file with my old computer).

Just a quick note that I am only responding based on the current state of the 5th rules, which may change until the contest actually begins. (And probably will slightly change)

Imzogelmo wrote:This is actually the only one I disagree with. I think, properly done, this could be used as an extension to the classic feel.

And on the topic of mazes, I once made a dungeon with a maze to solve in it, and I felt like that worked really well.

Mazes are fine! (Just don't overdo it.)

Imzogelmo wrote:
As for scripting, would it be acceptable to make a scripted fireball shooter, to more closely match the behavior of the original LoZ statues?
(At one time I had modified Saffith's Homing Fireball Shooter script to add parameters for their safe zone and firing angle, but I seem to have lost that file with my old computer).

Orithan wrote:A couple of questions:
Are you allowed to create multi-stage enemies? Say I want to recreate the Kandokyan enemy from Oracle of Ages (that candle-head enemy seen in levels 6 and 8) and I want to use three separate slots in the enemy editor to create it; A first stage where you must light it's wick up (with a Candle or something similar) where it "splits" into a second stage where it runs around madly and is invincible until it "tribbles" into a 0hp "third stage" enemy with its death effect set to "Explode", would that be allowed?

Orithan wrote:
Are you allowed to modify existing enemies or items. Say I want to nerf the Wand to put into Level 3 and make the Blue Lynel immune to the Boomerang, would you allow that?

I'm all for having a 'fixed' shooter class, but since this bug has been around since the beginning of (ZC) time, my suggested fix would be to have the projectile shooter enemy class have miscellaneous attributes that will cover the needed functionality. And really, I don't expect that to be fixed anytime soon, so I have a workaround.

Specifically:
1. Safe zone distance. This is a distance that, if Link is inside of it, the shooter will remain idle. For compatibility purposes, this is a square around the position of the shooter (which is not aligned with the statue, you'll notice). (Also note, a square is a lot easier to figure than a circle). By default this is 32 pixels.

2. Permissible directions. This is the number of divisions of a circle that the shooter is allowed to choose from. For instance, using 4 would allow it to pick one of the 4 cardinal directions. I believe the NES game could choose 16ths of a circle, meaning there were some spots where you were always safe even outside the safe zone, due to rounding. Yep, that's right, it's not always able to point directly at you.

3. Angle offset. This goes along with the one above, but, imagine you want it to fire in 4 diagonals instead of cardinals. Use an angle offset of 45 to achieve that.

And I'm sure there are countless other options that people may want, but that's what scripting is for. 😊

EDIT: I'll put the modified version up somewhere but for now just search on purezc for Saffith's HomingFireballShooter script if interested. All options but angle offset are included.

Okay I see what you are saying now. Yes, that's one of the reasons scripting should be allowed. Not to add grandiose changes, but as a means to subtly change behaviors that may be otherwise difficult using the predefined mechanics of ZQuest.
Not entirely sure if some limit should be imposed to the use of scripts though. (It's a tricky subject and some things may have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.)

I know the rules are a bit long, but the aim is to make sure entries follow suite within the style of the first 4 quests and NES designs, but still allow a great amount of freedom and leeway for users. (The quest rule section might need a rewrite though.) We'll definitely leave this open for a few weeks in order to fine tune. All opinions and suggestions are welcome.

Are you implying scripting cannot be used for scripted enemies and bosses? I mean nothing outrageous but most the built in bosses are pretty lame.