Gleeok wrote:This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...
While I am not particularly fond of the hookshot or the flippers there is currently nothing in the rules against using them or removing NES items from being accessible in the quest. Are you suggesting we add that to the rules?
Gleeok wrote:We probably should. We could reserve a room on the OW for secrets which no entrants can use, except for writing "RESERVED".
While I think adding a screen for DN is a great idea, I don't think we should force it on entrants. I like what c-a-d said about using DarkNation or DN to access the quest or maybe DarkN.
Gleeok wrote:To remedy this I'm thinking of a possible joint judging process. The entrants are publicly released and after a period of months, are voted by the community as well as official judges. In order for this to be fair, there needs to be options for: "Completed", "Played Most Of", "Played Some", "Didn't Play", as well as various categories relevant to the 5th.
I like the idea of a hybrid system of dedicated judges and community voting(which you know because I suggested just such a method to you in chat). Maybe we could merge the two ideas. Each judge awarding their choice a point and each category in community poll awards. Quest with most points wins.
Gleeok wrote:This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...
SUCCESSOR wrote:While I am not particularly fond of the hookshot or the flippers there is currently nothing in the rules against using them or removing NES items from being accessible in the quest. Are you suggesting we add that to the rules
My thoughts real quick on some of these item issues:
Boomerang: I agree that the boomerang should be present (more on that in a bit), but since it trivializes many of the enemies, it might not be a bad idea to bury it a little deeper so that it isn't accessible too soon.
Hookshot: I'll admit to being a lifelong fan of the hookshot, but I don't really see it as lame.
The raft and the stepladder are already lame "you need item to cross" gimmicks, but the hookshot serves that purpose and more.
It makes the stepladder become obsolete in certain situations the same way the book+wand makes the red candle obsolete in certain situations.
Hookshot is pretty powerful though, so it should probably not be available until later when most of the enemies are immune to the thing.
Flippers: I just don't feel that the flippers jive well at all with the Z1 style. It would feel weird being able to swim in the eastern ocean where you would need to be forced from swimming off the overworld map, or worse.. colliding onto unwalkable sections upon screen transitions while swimming. I'm not saying to ban it... maybe someone can pull it off well and prove me wrong. I'm just saying I feel very iffy about it.
Lastly, the idea of not having items from Zelda 1 be present doesn't sit well with me at all.
What I'm envisioning is some poor quest player whittling away dozens of hours of his or her life trying desperately to find that red candle, or that boomerang, that the quest creator thought would be cool to not include in the game.
This game has a screen that scrolls down after the title screen advertising all the items... they should all show up somewhere.
Glenn the Great wrote:Lastly, the idea of not having items from Zelda 1 be present doesn't sit well with me at all.
What I'm envisioning is some poor quest player whittling away dozens of hours of his or her life trying desperately to find that red candle, or that boomerang, that the quest creator thought would be cool to not include in the game.
This game has a screen that scrolls down after the title screen advertising all the items... they should all show up somewhere.
"NOBODY WANTS THAT STALE OLD MEAT. MAYBE YOU CAN USE IT SOME OTHER WAY."
Goriya after finding the bait in a dungeon room. If you press the B button with it equipped...
By which I mean, perhaps we restrict the APPEARANCE of the classic equipment, but not its function.
Glenn the Great wrote:
Lastly, the idea of not having items from Zelda 1 be present doesn't sit well with me at all.
What I'm envisioning is some poor quest player whittling away dozens of hours of his or her life trying desperately to find that red candle, or that boomerang, that the quest creator thought would be cool to not include in the game.
This game has a screen that scrolls down after the title screen advertising all the items... they should all show up somewhere.
That is for 1st quest. Does that list of items lead you to believe those are all in every custom quest you play?
Gleeok wrote:Idea: How many times can you listen to the same 7 measures of the NES dungeon music without going insane? 200 times? 500 times? 5,000 times? How about an NES dungeon midi contest to replace the 3rd - 5th defaults? The arrangement should be in the NES style and soundfonts, must start with the NES dungeon theme, and include at the least a B and C section with a coda at the composers discretion, and be at least 3 minutes without loops.
What do you guys think?
Would LOVE this. It'd go great for any new stuff.
-James
Guys, guys. Glenn's point is extremely valid, and essentially similar to something I mentioned on page 2:
"This is not a custom quest contest, this is a 5th quest contest."
There is a difference. :tongue2:
Nightmare wrote:Would LOVE this. It'd go great for any new stuff.
-James
There's enough musicians and music savvy people in the ZC community where this could actually work I think. I actually did a Zelda Overture of sorts way back in 2005 with symphonic VST sounds.
Gleeok wrote:Guys, guys. Glenn's point is extremely valid, and essentially similar to something I mentioned on page 2:
"This is not a custom quest contest, this is a 5th quest contest."
That's hardly a point. You think not having a boomerang breaks the NES game more that having say 10 extra custom items? The hookshot adequately replaces the boomerang. forcing the boomerang to be in game forces the quest maker to adjust the subscreen for and and design enemy placement around it when it is unnecessary. What is the difference between the boomerang being stashed in lvl 9 and it being left out?
Can we avoid unnecessary rules? If someone submits an entry that sucks then it can be rejected or receive no votes. The more unnecessary rules the more people will be put off by this contest. The people interested in this competition will be people who have a very good understanding and love of LoZ gameplay.
I dunno, personally, I think it's a good point. The second quest may have added SOME things, but it was still essentially the same game. I'm not really sure how you can call it a "fifth quest" if the items aren't the same as the first.
lineas wrote:I dunno, personally, I think it's a good point. The second quest may have added SOME things, but it was still essentially the same game. I'm not really sure how you can call it a "fifth quest" if the items aren't the same as the first.
So you are saying if 1st quest had the hookshot instead of the boomerang it would be a completely different game?
I think instead of forcing a strict rules involving items and such we I think a better option is to let judging keep people on the right path. We already talked about community voting and categories. Something like:
- Most faithful to NES
- Most Creative
- Best overall experience
This way if someone makes a decision that might lose them a vote in Faithfulness to NES (like leaving out or severely limiting a staple NES item) they'd have to make up for it. Obviously creativity is still limited by the rules.
Somewhat, yes. The hookshot has different things it can do that the boomerang can't, and vice versa. But also, in my personal opinion, the items used in a given quest help to determine the overall feel of the game. If we're trying to make a game that is a successor to the original NES game, and we're touting it as the "fifth quest", I think it should be kept (mostly) within the constraints of what the NES game was capable, the whole point of a "second quest" is that it's supposed to be the SAME game, but with altered item placement, dungeons and harder enemies. You add the hookshot, then you HAVE to redesign the overworld to accommodate it, and that WOULD, in my opinion, change the feel of the game.
Besides, the same argument could be said about if people nerf weapons or place them too late in the game to be useful. If they do that, people won't vote for the game, cuz it's not fun.
lineas wrote:Somewhat, yes. The hookshot has different things it can do that the boomerang can't, and vice versa. But also, in my personal opinion, the items used in a given quest help to determine the overall feel of the game. If we're trying to make a game that is a successor to the original NES game, and we're touting it as the "fifth quest", I think it should be kept (mostly) within the constraints of what the NES game was capable, the whole point of a "second quest" is that it's supposed to be the SAME game, but with altered item placement, dungeons and harder enemies. You add the hookshot, then you HAVE to redesign the overworld to accommodate it, and that WOULD, in my opinion, change the feel of the game.
There would be a [very] small impact on gameplay if the hookshot was swapped with the boomerang. You don't have to redesign the overworld to accommodate the hookshot and doing so wasn't part of the hypothetical situation I asked you about. The only change is the item swap. There are no boomerang triggers in Z1 and it isn't required to defeat any enemies. The Nth quests have continued in the tradition of 1st and 2nd but have also become more lenient to fit in with more modern ZC quests. Letting 5th quest entrants have the ability to alter or 86 staple Z1 items that have little effect on gameplay is just fine in my book. The boomerang, red candle, and wand only serve to make the game accessible to beginners and people with little skill without being overly difficult. This is why many skilled players consider these items to be almost game-breaking.
lineas wrote:Besides, the same argument could be said about if people nerf weapons or place them too late in the game to be useful. If they do that, people won't vote for the game, cuz it's not fun.
That is a decision they will have to make isn't it? You can make strict rules about items but it will only discourage possible participants or have them looking for loopholes. Fun in your book might mean "too easy" but some people like a fair challenge and the absence of overpowered items.
My quote from my roommate:
"If it was in the NES, it should be in the 5th Quest and follow the NES"
This comes from a player.
-James
Nightmare wrote:My quote from my roommate:"If it was in the NES, it should be in the 5th Quest and follow the NES"
This comes from a player.
-James
Tell your roommate that if he isn't a registered and active member of AGN his opinion doesn't matter. >😃
How about this then: No.
Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not.Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.
Granted, this was not exactly entirely clear on the matter. It only said "Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay", which didn't outright say you couldn't remove said item from existence.
Items
New items are also allowed provided they are used sparingly and with extreme prejudice[1]. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay provided it is in line with NES mechanics. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not okay. Replacing existing items with another item type is not allowed.
Better?
Okay then (so much for using the bait as a bludgeon!).
I'll find a different way to restrict secret access until certain dungeons are cleared. I recommend others do the same (If anybody else had ideas that were rendered ineligible because of this declaration, fret not! You can still use them in the "Brave New World" quest contest or a collaborative 'close to NES' quest)
There are still tons of ways to restrict access to places:
Bait, Ladder, Raft, Bracelet, Bow, Wand(or potion), Whistle, Magic Key, Candle, Triforce, etc. That's already one for each Level right there!
Also you might not want the quest too linear. Having to do all the levels in order is lame! Sometimes protecting items with lots of strong enemies is just as effective!
Gleeok wrote:There are still tons of ways to restrict access to places:
Bait, Ladder, Raft, Bracelet, Bow, Wand(or potion), Whistle, Magic Key, Candle, Triforce, etc. That's already one for each Level right there!Also you might not want the quest too linear. Having to do all the levels in order is lame! Sometimes protecting items with lots of strong enemies is just as effective!
Well, I was talking more about 'Heart or Potion' rooms on the overworld, but okay. You've given me another idea which may be better.
What's the idea, you ask? Well...
It's a secret to everybody!
SUCCESSOR wrote:Tell your roommate that if he isn't a registered and active member of AGN his opinion doesn't matter. >😃
Gleeok wrote:How about this then: No.Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not.
Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.
Granted, this was not exactly entirely clear on the matter. It only said "Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay", which didn't outright say you couldn't remove said item from existence.
New items are also allowed provided they are used sparingly and with extreme prejudice[1]. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay provided it is in line with NES mechanics. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not okay. Replacing existing items with another item type is not allowed.
Better?
I think that was my point. From a player's perspective they're expecting an NES quest with NES items.
This is also why I think we should've done a custom quest contest instead of a 5th, but oh well. Guess that's what "Brave New World" is for.
-James
Simple poll: Either say "yes", or "no", and please be honest.
Just getting a rough idea of how many entries there will be in order to figure out the fairest and most reasonable method of judging them. Right now judges are in short supply, so a community review and voting process would seem like a good way to help choose the top xx percentile of entries and also help choose the winner if there are more than what would be reasonable otherwise. After all, the quest is by the community, for the community, so I think that it is only fair they get a vote. Of course, anyone is free to help improve this process as well, so feel free to post your suggestions here as well.
Nightmare wrote:
This is also why I think we should've done a custom quest contest instead of a 5th, but oh well. Guess that's what "Brave New World" is for.
One problem is that a good custom quest with all the bells and whistles could take years. It just doesn't make for a good contest because it is an almost impossible task for one person. By comparison, a (many) good 5th quest(s) is totally doable in a reasonable amount of time, and because the tools are all rudimentary and easy to use ZQuest features, it can be a fun and not all-consuming experience as well.
Take a look at neofirst, which was in development since 2006, and that may or may not be completed anytime soon.
Gleeok wrote:One problem is that a good custom quest with all the bells and whistles could take years. It just doesn't make for a good contest because it is an almost impossible task for one person. By comparison, a (many) good 5th quest(s) is totally doable in a reasonable amount of time, and because the tools are all rudimentary and easy to use ZQuest features, it can be a fun and not all-consuming experience as well.Take a look at neofirst, which was in development since 2006, and that may or may not be completed anytime soon.
Then why don't you put a development cap on it, say, six months? I know there will be the people that wait until the last minute, but if you give them a scope of six months they can plan it out and start planning things out and determining what they can and cannot do: That's how I'd approach it.
-James
Gleeok wrote:
Better?
No. It is still strict and I disagree with it. It will only discourage possible entrants.
Argh, now that I've seen it, I must answer!
This is a toughie, because psychologically, if I say 'no', that will make me want to do it. However, if I say 'yes', I'll feel like I'm doing it out of obligation instead of fun, so I'll begrudge it. I have some good ideas for dungeons and such, and the challenge of working within the restrictions of the slightly-beyond-4th-quest rules does appeal to me, but am I going to have the time? Probably not.
I could certainly make a good dungeon or maybe 2. I have no trouble tuning it to be easy or hard. But a whole quest? I'm not sure if I'll have time to do it to the level of quality that is needed.
So... I'd probably be better as a player or judge. And maybe I'll decide to throw a hat in the ring, but probably not. For now, put me down as a 'no.'
How are judges in short supply for a contest that hasn't started? I also don't see how you can get an estimate anywhere close considering it hasn't been announced officially or announced at all at PureZC. Judges and Judging method don't even need to be set until entries are starting to be accepted. If people are given a month(at least) to make their entry then we have a month to get judges and decide on the best way for the community to vote. The contest needs to be officially announced(here and at purezc) before this poll/thread will yield any relevant information.
SUCCESSOR wrote:How are judges in short supply for a contest that hasn't started? I also don't see how you can get an estimate anywhere close considering it hasn't been announced officially or announced at all at PureZC. Judges and Judging method don't even need to be set until entries are starting to be accepted. If people are given a month(at least) to make their entry then we have a month to get judges and decide on the best way for the community to vote. The contest needs to be officially announced(here and at purezc) before this poll/thread will yield any relevant information.
Well for starters, entrants cannot also judge because there would be bias. Secondly, how would you like to play through 10 full length quests in a limited amount of time? If the time restraints on the 4th contest weren't so tight we would've seen 8 entries for that, and even with the 6 that made it, real life issues crept up on half of those responsible for judging the thing, with a few dropping out entirely. This led to the longest "waiting for a result" period only trumped by Duke Nukem Forever. On top of that some of the quests were so close, each in a different way, it was very difficult to decide. I'm just trying to not repeat past mistakes here.
Plus, isn't there the matter of possibly organizing a community quest in the future?
...Wait, weren't you one of the people that suggested a similar voting method in chat?
Imzogelmo wrote:Argh, now that I've seen it, I must answer!This is a toughie, because psychologically, if I say 'no', that will make me want to do it. However, if I say 'yes', I'll feel like I'm doing it out of obligation instead of fun, so I'll begrudge it. I have some good ideas for dungeons and such, and the challenge of working within the restrictions of the slightly-beyond-4th-quest rules does appeal to me, but am I going to have the time? Probably not.
I could certainly make a good dungeon or maybe 2. I have no trouble tuning it to be easy or hard. But a whole quest? I'm not sure if I'll have time to do it to the level of quality that is needed.
So... I'd probably be better as a player or judge. And maybe I'll decide to throw a hat in the ring, but probably not. For now, put me down as a 'no.'
lol. The "no" is mostly useless anyway. :tongue2: You are not obligated either way.
Or encourage entrants to be more creative with how they use the items they've already got.
I'd really like to say yes, but honestly, I'm not sure I'm up to doing it, I'm not a very good player, so making a "challenging" quest is really hard for me to judge, and I usually end up giving people something way beyond hard. Like Wizzrobes in level one or some stupid shit like that. (Ok, I usually don't do that, but I HAVE been known to give people a room with 2 level 3 stalfos, 2 level 3 goriyas, 2 L2 ropes, 2 bomb octoroks, although I DID cut their HP to 8, and 2 bats... in level 2), Plus, I'm really very busy with Trials of the Gods. Still I really would like to give it a try... I tend to have really good idea, it's just my execution that's lacking. Maybe if I find the time I'll try to do one. I guess put me down as a "maybe"
Gleeok wrote:Well for starters, entrants cannot also judge because there would be bias. Secondly, how would you like to play through 10 full length quests in a limited amount of time? If the time restraints on the 4th contest weren't so tight we would've seen 8 entries for that, and even with the 6 that made it, real life issues crept up on half of those responsible for judging the thing, with a few dropping out entirely. This led to the longest "waiting for a result" period only trumped by Duke Nukem Forever. On top of that some of the quests were so close, each in a different way, it was very difficult to decide. I'm just trying to not repeat past mistakes here.
Obviously entrants cant judge...
I misunderstood the point of this thread when I replied.
lineas wrote:Or encourage entrants to be more creative with how they use the items they've already got.
I guess. Don't look for the boomerang early on in my quest though.
Oh, I totally agree, I'd be putting it in level 5-6, and the magic one in 8 or 9, if it were me.