Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

It'd be nice if some common scripts were made available, but didn't break the game (like example, unblockable fireballs on Aquamentus, blockable fireballs on Gohma, etc. etc.), as well as example quests for newcomers.

-James

SUCCESSOR wrote:Are you implying scripting cannot be used for scripted enemies and bosses? I mean nothing outrageous but most the built in bosses are pretty lame.

Where does it say that you have to use the default bosses? Even the 4th quest had beefed up bosses.

For "custom" enemies, I think I am not alone when I say I am a little hesitant to allow completely scripted enemies. The Enemy Editor already can augment enemies in tons of different ways without scripts. As much as ghost.zh is really cool, it might be a bit much for this particular contest. Although if used very, very judiciously, and in the classic NES context it could be fine also. Will people actually use it for good instead of evil? Probably not. I don't even think neofirst had any scripted normal enemies in it.
That said, there is no rule that does not allow scripts and enemies to be used simultaneously. (As you can probably tell by now there are already many loopholes in play simply by allowing scripts.)

Go ahead and try to make a case for scripted enemies in a classic 5th quest contest built from a tool designed to edit just about every aspect of LOZ, and then try to make it sound not ridiculous! :P

[edit] appended to the script and enemy sections.

Nightmare wrote:It'd be nice if some common scripts were made available, but didn't break the game (like example, unblockable fireballs on Aquamentus, blockable fireballs on Gohma, etc. etc.), as well as example quests for newcomers.

-James

Good point. Example 1st and 2nd should be made available.
Script request would be your best bet. (Someone will usually help you out, especially for simple scripts.)

Gleeok wrote:Where does it say that you have to use the default bosses? Even the 4th quest had beefed up bosses.

...Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss...

What Gleeok was meaning was more like a non-scripted boss. Who said you can't modify the existing bosses?

To access 5th quest, instead of Ganon or Zelda you type DarkNation or DN, obviously.

Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)

I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.

I'm not necessarily saying to get rid of the rule, though. Actually, if I were a participant (I won't be, because Zquest map creation goes over my head), I would use this as the opportunity to make a new enemy species or two. An idea I had was for an enemy that had DR/Wand in the same way Pols Voice have DR/Arrow. Put Link's items through their paces.

Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.

...Huh. I could've sworn there were a lot more. Ah well, if I think of any others, I'll either edit this or make a new post. In any case, included items should be playtested carefully to make sure they don't trivialize the quest.

I'd like to conclude this with one thing that I should not really have to mention, but given the stories I've heard outside of the ZC community about the average quest, I'll mention it anyway. Play time is not an accurate measurement of fun.

(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

aturtledoesbite wrote:Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)

Of course it is. Thanks for posting.

aturtledoesbite wrote:
I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.

Obviously forcing requirements like that doesn't guarantee quality results. The quest maker will have to remember that he will be judged on how well he makes use of it. Also the submission can be rejected if the "new" enemies aren't sufficiently different from the original. I personally don't see a darknut with more HP as a new enemy. We can only hope that the contest will inspire people to put in thought and effort and that rejected quests will be resubmitted with improvement.

aturtledoesbite wrote:
Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.

This is also a concern but entries will be judged on their difficulty. If an item makes the quest too easy it will likely be rejected.

aturtledoesbite wrote:
(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

It's "magic."

Great discussion going on.

All I have to say at this point is to be conservative/flexible with advanced features that are "required". What comes to mind are all those great Nintendo DS games that were ruined because the developers thought they had to squeeze in every gimmick. The other custom quest contest should be the one that puts a stronger emphasis on new features.

"Hmm, this game is nice and all, good gameplay, nice graphics, but we noticed that you never have the player shout into the microphone. Lot of missed opportunity there... go see what you can do with that and come show me again later."

Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?

I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

CJC wrote:Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

I couldn't tell you. The 4 quests are protected by a magical force known only to the Devs. When they join rings and say a key phrase only then can the quests be opened.

CJC wrote:Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?

There are no rules against it currently. Personally I don't think the flippers would ruin the NES experience.

CJC wrote:Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

I don't mean this to be funny, and I'm no dev, but I have example_3rd and example_4th (as well as the first 2). Clearly they were at some point available. I could put them up somewhere if there's a need.

Imzogelmo wrote:I don't mean this to be funny, and I'm no dev, but I have example_3rd and example_4th (as well as the first 2). Clearly they were at some point available. I could put them up somewhere if there's a need.

Actually Example_4th is the only one that I'm missing. I don't know when they were available without password, but I do have the first three unlocked on my computer.

In fact, I was shocked that the 'example' versions of the quests were not bundled after 2.5 came out.

EDIT: What I mean to say is yes, it would be awesome if somebody could make those files available. Maybe we could put them on the quest database?

OK. Quick and dirty:

http://imzogelmo.webs.com/news.htm

EDIT: Oh yea, if you see that Hitting Jello wav file on my site, its timing works perfectly for a Zol splitting into Gels. Feel free to use it. 😊

Thanks.

I actually had no idea there was even an example 3rd or 4th. :shrug: I know we had proposed versions in the alpha builds (up to rev.1200 where they were finalized) for some years though.

Wow... fourth only has two pages of tiles? How efficient.

Thank you Imzogelmo. It gives us the power to transfer maps to new 'classic tileset' quests, which is really important considering the Overworld needs to remain the same.

EDIT: I was thinking about what CAD said for accessing the quest (Type DarkNation or DN), and I have a few follow-up questions.

First, should you be able to reach this quest by beating Third OR Fourth (either one, but not both since they aren't sequential)?

Second, should we include a memorial room for DarkNation in the quest, and if so what should the string say?

SECOND EDIT: I notice one of the rules is to set the continue point to the dungeon entrance. If my dungeons have more than one entrance, does that break the rules? (I intended to set the continue point to the most obvious Overworld entrance)?

Can someone post the example 3rd and 4th?

-James

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Nightmare wrote:Can someone post the example 3rd and 4th?

-James

-

Well you can get the unpassworded 'fourth' from Imzogelmo's site:

Imzogelmo wrote:OK. Quick and dirty:

http://imzogelmo.webs.com/news.htm

As for the others (1st through 3rd), you'll need to wait for somebody to give permission for them to be uploaded.

====================

Gleeok wrote:* No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid). Also, no enemies that split into bosses, and no enemies that grow into bosses.
* Custom bosses (defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.

EDIT: Bummer, it doesn't look like you can set death behavior for bosses. ARGH!

[spoiler]I've got a really cool idea for the Ganon fight which will require the ability for bosses to change into other bosses.
[spoiler]The battle starts with Ganon floating around the center, surrounded by 8 flames (Manhandla 2). When the flames are extinguished, he vanishes and reappears on the right side of the screen, firing swords (Aquamentus). Beat him there and he switches to the left side of the screen (Aquamentus again). If you beat him THERE, then he moves to the top of the screen and, with the Triforce of Power hovering in front of him, sends streams of fire across the room (Gleeok 2 w/One head). Finally, if you beat him at this point he turns invisible, floating around the room launching fireballs until you wound him and shoot him with the Silver Arrow (Ganon).[/spoiler][/spoiler]

CJC wrote:Bummer, it doesn't look like you can set death behavior for bosses. ARGH!

That's where scripting is handy. I can write you a script that spawns an enemy(boss) when a boss dies.

SUCCESSOR wrote:That's where scripting is handy. I can write you a script that spawns an enemy(boss) when a boss dies.

Could said script prevent the boss from dropping its item until the chain of fights has been completed? (Actually, it probably could if an invisible intangible enemy was included on screen and only killed when the final boss is slain).
I did see LoadNPC in the documentation (it appears to function based on enemy ID), but I wasn't sure how I was going to check if the previous stage had been defeated yet. I'm also worried that if I script a boss swap the first one will drop the Big Triforce before the second one spawns (or is that something only the Ganon enemy type can do?)

My other thought was the classic boss stage trick, wherein the boss triggers secrets that turn the floor into pit warps that transport the player to the next phase of the boss. That probably falls under the umbrella of cutscene though.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. I suppose the first step I should take is plotting out the map layout of the dungeons with empty rooms. I guess I was focusing on enemies/bosses so early because I want to compress the tiles into as tight a space as possible (it's so elegant that fourth quest only uses two pages of tiles; it must really save on file space).

SUCCESSOR wrote:Doesn't [MENTION=38700]jman2050[/MENTION] poke his head around every now and then?

What tiles are there in the Demo Tileset? Personally I think editing the palette would be okay if it stayed within the same number of colors. I don't know how anyone else feels about that.

sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...

There is a function in the last quest file I posted that spawns any enemy, including bosses, while a)the number of current enemies is less than X, b)there's a trigger variable int Z that is less than Y. The script sets Y to +=1 of what it was when the enemy dies, and Y can be set to a number >1 so that the spawning happens as many times as desired.

"In Loving Memory of Dark Nation."

It wouldn't be difficult to modify one of the item spawning functions in there to drop the item desired when Z==whatever number of bosses get defeated in the room.

Zim wrote:There is a function in the last quest file I posted that spawns any enemy, including bosses, while a)the number of current enemies is less than X, b)there's a trigger variable int Z that is less than Y. The script sets Y to +=1 of what it was when the enemy dies, and Y can be set to a number >1 so that the spawning happens as many times as desired.

"In Loving Memory of Dark Nation."

It wouldn't be difficult to modify one of the item spawning functions in there to drop the item desired when Z==whatever number of bosses get defeated in the room.

...Unless you mean your big scrolling project, but that's not what you're talking about... is it?

CJC wrote:Would you mind posting that script in a code box here? I couldn't find the quest you were referencing.

...Unless you mean your big scrolling project, but that's not what you're talking about... is it?

Actually it was, I think. 😊
void E(enum,xpos,ypos,numnpc<this,triggerflag#toset,iftriggerflagis<=thisnum,setflagtothisnumwhenscriptruns)
It was something like that.

jman2050 wrote:sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...

Schweet. I'd like to play through all the 4th contest entries. What do you think of the rules so far? I think we've got em down and ready to go. Edit, also sup.

[MENTION=39330]CJC[/MENTION] I can PM or chat with you about specifics on the script to keep from derailing this thread.

Actually the rules need a minor facelift. They need to offer more freedom with what you can do, but at the same time place more restrictions on the NES side of it. This sounds kind of stupid, I know, but what's most likely to happen is some otherwise great entries (possibly winners) that just don't "feel" like an NES quest so its score drops considerably.

I'm going to quickly run through the 4th with cheats on first, though.

CJC wrote:
Second, should we include a memorial room for DarkNation in the quest, and if so what should the string say?

We probably should. We could reserve a room on the OW for secrets which no entrants can use, except for writing "RESERVED".

CJC wrote:
Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?
I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...

jman2050 wrote:sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...

To remedy this I'm thinking of a possible joint judging process. The entrants are publicly released and after a period of months, are voted by the community as well as official judges. In order for this to be fair, there needs to be options for: "Completed", "Played Most Of", "Played Some", "Didn't Play", as well as various categories relevant to the 5th.

Gleeok wrote:Actually the rules need a minor facelift. They need to offer more freedom with what you can do, but at the same time place more restrictions on the NES side of it. This sounds kind of stupid, I know, but what's most likely to happen is some otherwise great entries (possibly winners) that just don't "feel" like an NES quest so its score drops considerably.

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...

On the Flippers:
[spoiler]My plan was to convert all shore combos to 'ladder only' and make only the open water combos swimmable (so the Ladder would still be viable in these situations, and without it the only way into the water is a raft pier). The addition of flippers exists primarily to hide more secret entrances in the water, and to ensure said entrances cannot be reached until the flippers are acquired.
If I could find or construct a script that would let Link move freely on water tiles when he has the raft (probably just needs to check for the item, then combo type, then draw the raft on layer 0), the flippers will no longer be necessary.[/spoiler]

On the Bait
[spoiler]Feed the Goriya rooms don't really add a whole lot to the quest for me. I have a more interesting solution to these roadblocks which I think will be favorable.
As for the bait itself I suppose it's frustration because it is essentially useless in every other room (yeah, there's hunger, but how often is that going to be viable in combat?). I intended to remove the Bait so I could make room for the Hammer, which will play a significant role in Overworld secrets (break those rocks) as well as dungeon combat (Large groups of Darknuts in certain dungeons will be a sign that the hammer is necessary).
I suppose I can adjust my level 2 bomb to serve most of the hammer's functions, though it will complicate matters when hiding secrets on the overworld.[/spoiler]

Perhaps we should just let contestants build the quests using the current rule proposal and then--if the 'Classic Zelda' feeling is insufficient (as rated by the public who play the quest)--make suggestions for correcting the issue on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of places where the Classic feel could be broken, but that is a matter of opinion and it might be better to make corrections rather than restrictions. In other words, leave it up to the majority. Since the quest is for everybody, we should poll if the quest is 'classic' enough.

AH, that's it! Contestants should open a thread when they make the submission and said thread should have poll/feedback to determine how to make the quest 'more' classic.

CJC wrote:On the boomerang:
[spoiler]My desire to remove the boomerang comes mainly because it seems to be a pariah item: Quests hide it until late dungeons because it makes the game 'too easy'. My goal in switching it for the hookshot was to maintain the stun mechanic while limiting it to orthogonal directions. It would also add the ability to throw in 'uncrossable' rooms that require the hookshot, yes, to make the item required for progression (I guess that's the equivalent of a ZQuest trope, huh?)
I can work around this removal by adding a 'boomerang block' that triggers secrets in a room, which I could then use to make a bridge appear in a room that would normally be impossible to cross.
[/spoiler]

On the Flippers:
[spoiler]My plan was to convert all shore combos to 'ladder only' and make only the open water combos swimmable (so the Ladder would still be viable in these situations, and without it the only way into the water is a raft pier). The addition of flippers exists primarily to hide more secret entrances in the water, and to ensure said entrances cannot be reached until the flippers are acquired.
If I could find or construct a script that would let Link move freely on water tiles when he has the raft (probably just needs to check for the item, then combo type, then draw the raft on layer 0), the flippers will no longer be necessary.[/spoiler]

On the Bait
[spoiler]Feed the Goriya rooms don't really add a whole lot to the quest for me. I have a more interesting solution to these roadblocks which I think will be favorable.
As for the bait itself I suppose it's frustration because it is essentially useless in every other room (yeah, there's hunger, but how often is that going to be viable in combat?). I intended to remove the Bait so I could make room for the Hammer, which will play a significant role in Overworld secrets (break those rocks) as well as dungeon combat (Large groups of Darknuts in certain dungeons will be a sign that the hammer is necessary).
I suppose I can adjust my level 2 bomb to serve most of the hammer's functions, though it will complicate matters when hiding secrets on the overworld.[/spoiler]

Perhaps we should just let contestants build the quests using the current rule proposal and then--if the 'Classic Zelda' feeling is insufficient (as rated by the public who play the quest)--make suggestions for correcting the issue on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of places where the Classic feel could be broken, but that is a matter of opinion and it might be better to make corrections rather than restrictions. In other words, leave it up to the majority. Since the quest is for everybody, we should poll if the quest is 'classic' enough.

AH, that's it! Contestants should open a thread when they make the submission and said thread should have poll/feedback to determine how to make the quest 'more' classic.

Upon reading this post I have come upon the realization that a 5th quest should not add or subtract from any previous game mechanics of tLoZ and be a rearrangement of the original LoZ map with absolutely no changes in game mechanics. That's my final opinion and vote on this matter.

Zim wrote:Upon reading this post I have come upon the realization that a 5th quest should not add or subtract from any previous game mechanics of tLoZ and be a rearrangement of the original LoZ map with absolutely no changes in game mechanics. That's my final opinion and vote on this matter.

BOOOOO-RING! I would rather eat plain white rice 3 meals a day for a month.

SUCCESSOR wrote:BOOOOO-RING! I would rather eat plain white rice 3 meals a day for a month.

I actually did that once.. Except for it was only 1 or 2, and I had some butter and sugar, and I skipped some days.
Not recommended PoA.

I just started thinking that if it were me, I'd make the 5th quest as if it were made within the limitations of the NES LoZ, and as if it were a quest that was in the original NES game. Isn't that the point of calling it 5th Quest anyway?

I'll be glad to see whatever comes of it either way.

Idea: How many times can you listen to the same 7 measures of the NES dungeon music without going insane? 200 times? 500 times? 5,000 times? How about an NES dungeon midi contest to replace the 3rd - 5th defaults?

The arrangement should be in the NES style and soundfonts, must start with the NES dungeon theme, and include at the least a B and C section with a coda at the composers discretion, and be at least 3 minutes without loops.

What do you guys think?