I should just shut up but my blood is boiling right now. >_<
It was obviously a huge mistake to accept L to the developement team before 2.5's release. He has done amazing job with those awesome features and items, sure, but what's the point in adding them if it causes so much instability and makes the 2.5 release seem like a far away dream now? Sigh, oh how I wish L would just take it easy for a while and let the developers release a stable beta so we all can breathe a sigh of relief. Yeah, ZC is a free project you guys do on your free time for us "progmrammingly challenged" game builders so you devs really owe nothing to us and no oblications to do anything, but just sit down for a while and think about it: There has been no real stable release in YEARS. That has to hurt ZC, and it is making some respected questmakers frustrated and ready to leave, like Freedom for example, and I'm starting to be on the same boat too.
It may sound like I don't have faith in your (developers) abilities, but every time something new is added, loads of bugs appear. And with all these additions that still are planned for 2.5 everyone with brains surely realizes that a STABLE 2.5 is not possible in a long time, and I mean STABLE.
And you Shoelace, can't you just keep building your quest and add those dialogues later? And if it would take too much time for the editor to be added, well just live with it and use scripts or good old strings! Don't make it all about your quest and "oh how I cant build my quest unless there isn't a dialogue editor, sniff".
Petoe, I agree with you on several points, and dissagree on others, but one of the things you said was the reason for MY personal wish for the new features to be put in now.
There has been no real stable release in YEARS.
And there may not be a stable release for year/s to come. Which is why I think we should get these (reletivily) simple features out of the way, rather than wait forever.
Amaster42 wrote:Petoe, I agree with you on several points, and dissagree on others, but one of the things you said was the reason for MY personal wish for the new features to be put in now.
And there may not be a stable release for year/s to come. Which is why I think we should get these (reletivily) simple features out of the way, rather than wait forever.
Yea right, let's just all wait for a few more years in hopes we get a stable release, cause we might not get all the features we want otherwise.
Just like the dog that raced by the first bone he saw in hopes of getting a bigger one, and ended up with none.
I've been beta testing these betas for two years waiting for a stable release, and the betas coming out now are the worst I've ever seen.
I'm not building quests or beta testing any more until I see the focus change to working towards a stable release over adding more more more.
Other folks can do what they want, but I've had enough of it.
I didn't get involved in this because I wanted to beta test, I got involved to build quests, and it's gotten to the point that is no longer possible.
That might sound like a bad attitude, but it's also FACT.
It doesn't matter how many cool features a program has, if it doesn't work to serve it's basic function, and ZC hasn't done that for a good while now.
It's way past time to stop adding more more more and FIX what is there.
And you Shoelace, can't you just keep building your quest and add those dialogues later? And if it would take too much time for the editor to be added, well just live with it and use scripts or good old strings! Don't make it all about your quest and "oh how I cant build my quest unless there isn't a dialogue editor, sniff".
I am not making it all about my quest, I am just telling my side of the story. I was writing the reason why I want the Dialogue Editor so badly. I didn't mean to get you mad, but I feel strongly about this.
Since you asked, I will answer. I have restarted my quest over 3 times because 2.11 kept getting upgraded. I want this game to be good and use all of the features in 2.11. And since my game is almost 100% storyline driven, when jman mentioned the Dialogue Editor, I knew right away I would restart my things again. So I decided to stop making my game until 2.11 or now 2.5 is released so I wouldn't have to deal with redoing things. Again the main reason was the Dialogue Editor and because I got sick of upgrading my quests. So I stopped making it.
I still think it is needed and I will stand by it.
But of course I am a huge supporter of a STABLE release. I disagree with Amaster42 when he said that a stable release was years to come. I think it is more like months (1-3) to come (which I know doesn't make a lot people happy either, but it is realistic). But yeah, the goal of the new years may not be met, but the devoplers are doing a great job and getting all of the features out before the big bug testing. I think all of their resolutions for New Years is no more additions. Get the ones that you are doing right now out, but after New Years, that is it. The Cut off date. I think that would be a good way to do it.
But I think this debate won't be over until the devolpers shut us up with the STABLE release.
Shoelace wrote:But of course I am a huge supporter of a STABLE release. I disagree with Amaster42 when he said that a stable release was years to come. I think it is more like months (1-3) to come (which I know doesn't make a lot people happy either, but it is realistic). But yeah, the goal of the new years may not be met, but the dev
that was what everyone was told months ago... IT SHOULD BE F!#@ING OUT BY NOW!
I'm not saying we add any new features now. That would be insane, I must admit. But the ones that are already in progress should be completed.
And for the record, I agree that our focus now needs to be de-bugging. I think somewhere along a 70-30 split focus on bugs-features would be ideal.
franpa, will when they said a new years release date, I was thinking it wasn't going to happen. So I actually thought they were going to release it in January because I know how releases dates are. They aren't like official Video game deadlines, they are goals. Goals that they try to reach. I was hoping for a stable release in December but I was realistic thinking it would be January if not February.
It was obviously a huge mistake to accept L to the developement team before 2.5's release.
There I must disagree.
I don't think you meant it "like that" either Peteo - but, EVERYONE,
yes there are things that could have been done differently in ZC development but you can't blame it all on _L_ .
Look whats happening at this moment with ZC .......The zelda questbase is down for almost a year .........the 2.10 bugfree version everybody asked for and could be done in only a short time ( that was what was told ) never heard from it again ...............the beta releases are filled with bugs and new features constantly.............. so questmakers stop making quests .......what will we have at the end ...........maybe sometime there will be a new stable release but no questmakers around to make a quest and no players cause there is never a new quest in the questdatabase .........We can't blame the developers they do it all in their free time .........we can't blame the questmakers everytime they work on a quest they can throw half away what they made because of a new release that messes up all the work they have done till then............we can't blame the players they found other games to play because there is nothing new to gain here ..............No we can't blame nobody but it's still a sad process to see happening :shrug:
Perhaps you are right Elise, but it is rather hard to say, some people will come back and play with ZC again after a couple years. It has happened to many people. I think the developers are just doing the best they can, but I also think that maybe they are shooting for targets that are too far out of reach just now. They've got a hookshot, but keep aiming for the Longshot target. And maybe they'll hit it. I'll stick around for a while and see, but I also have other projects I am working on alongside of this one, so we'll see what happens
Yeah, I know Elise. I was really mad that 2.10 wasn't stable. I was madder at myself that I switched to it, and couldn't go back. Same thing with 2.11. I switched to it when it became semi-stable, but then it went downhill from there. But I was okay with it because it is a beta and that is what happens. But I was just mad at myself for moving to it, because now there are bugs that prevent me from doing things. The Bugs and the constant upgrading made me finally stop as I couldn't go back to 2.10. But I do believe that their goal is a STABLE 2.5 release, and I believe there will be. Because if there isn't, there will be a major backlash. Probably even me being one of them.
Well, you can't really say that our fan base is declining so much. Sure we've lost some people, but were getting new members almost constantly, and those are just the one who bother to join the forum.
Shoelace, you can still upgrade your quest without starting over. That's what Lost Isle is doing. Hell, it started off as a beta 183 quest! It transfered overly nicely to a 2.11 quest and right now its running off of a (albeit EXTREMELY BUGGY, CAN'T FINISH QUEST WITHOUT CHEATING) beta 16. But it seems the quests can survive the upgrades to each new beta. (unless they decide to totally change the way the quest is loaded/is read/or wahtever in Zquest. In which case Lost Isle is screwed and you're never going to see it.) But you don't have to quit because 'oh, I want a dialogue editor! *pouts*' As proven by my quest, it can survive the rigors of upgrading, you just have to roll with the punches. What it can't stand though....is the bugs. >_>
No, you aren't understanding what I meant... I mean, my game is 100% storyline driven. Meaning if there are new ideas, new features, they will be added to the storyline which will change the game. New features = me redoing things. So I kept redoing things as the features came. Then when I heard about the Dialogue Editor I stopped because I knew I would change the storyline to fit things. Roc's Feather came in too, so there is another change that I may do (I am iffy about that one as it is limited right now).
All I meant was if the Dialogue editor didn't make it, It would make me sad and mad at MYSELF for stopping to wait for it. But this is all so I don't have to redo things again and again.
If you want to postpone your quest because of that, its your choice. Just worried by the time you start it up again, you'll be worn out from waiting. :P
Well for me, I script things for people because I like helping out. If someone wants something, and I believe I can get it done, I'll do it. Not everyone feeds you the "go learn to script yourself" crap. Scripting isn't easy, and not everyone gets it, but to be able to "plug-in" a script is just as good as having it hardcoded into the software IMO so long as it compiles efficiently. Why, you could get many more scripts out of scripters than you could get features programmed by busy developers who should be making things stable instead of scripting in "Link does this this this etc..with his sword now!"
Just my thoughts, I'm sometimes wrong but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.
DarkFlameWolf wrote:Shoelace, you can still upgrade your quest without starting over. That's what Lost Isle is doing. Hell, it started off as a beta 183 quest! It transfered overly nicely to a 2.11 quest and right now its running off of a (albeit EXTREMELY BUGGY, CAN'T FINISH QUEST WITHOUT CHEATING) beta 16. But it seems the quests can survive the upgrades to each new beta. (unless they decide to totally change the way the quest is loaded/is read/or wahtever in Zquest. In which case Lost Isle is screwed and you're never going to see it.) But you don't have to quit because 'oh, I want a dialogue editor! *pouts*' As proven by my quest, it can survive the rigors of upgrading, you just have to roll with the punches. What it can't stand though....is the bugs. >_>
Then I have two questions about this....
Where did you get beta 16, I haven't seen it.
And how many FFC's have you got in your game, because I have dozens and dozens and they are all screwed, and the new flag system doesn't even work to repair them.
How many times should I redo these, they are quite a lot of work, just to be wiped out with a next beta, and I've already had to completely redo them before, only to have them trashed again now.
Link can fly, but he can't even walk.
Freedom wrote:Yea right, let's just all wait for a few more years in hopes we get a stable release, cause we might not get all the features we want otherwise.Just like the dog that raced by the first bone he saw in hopes of getting a bigger one, and ended up with none.
I've been beta testing these betas for two years waiting for a stable release, and the betas coming out now are the worst I've ever seen.
I'm not building quests or beta testing any more until I see the focus change to working towards a stable release over adding more more more.
Other folks can do what they want, but I've had enough of it.
I didn't get involved in this because I wanted to beta test, I got involved to build quests, and it's gotten to the point that is no longer possible.
That might sound like a bad attitude, but it's also FACT.
It doesn't matter how many cool features a program has, if it doesn't work to serve it's basic function, and ZC hasn't done that for a good while now.
It's way past time to stop adding more more more and FIX what is there.
sorry, i should read more... um... the more we wait the more requests appear... and i fully agree with freedom... i wouldve done a bit more towards learning stuff in zquest and continued working on my quest (which i admit is pretty crappy) but nothing works as intended or just doesnt work or will corrupt the quest or something.
DFW... the problem lies in them changing ques formats and having a bug in the parser that updates old quest formats to newer quest formats... its normally nothing to do with loading and/or saving... its normally to do with how a quest is updated. (altho i think it gets parsed as part of the loading process... it gets parsed before it stores it in memory for working on...)
Freedom, I'm sure Wolfie meant beta15, not beta16 like she accidentally typed.
And we've tried to not add many FFC combos to Lost Isle because that one damn developer is constantly changing how things work and that would screw things up like it has screwed up for you. 😞 So what I am doing now is to wait for the final 2.5 release to add the rest of the FFC combos because it's a FINAL release and then I know nothing will change and the quest will be all right.
Oh and sorry koopa, maybe you're right, maybe I didn't mean to blame it all on L like that but his actions, some people's comments on this thread and everything else related to ZC makes me very sad and angry at the moment. I know I am not making many friends with my furious comments but understand me, I am a passionate quest designer who hates unstability more than anything. Now if you still decide to go and add those features you plan to add, I know for sure tons of new bugs will be born and it will take forever to sort those out and at that point I am starting to fear that 2.5 will never happen especially if something goes horribly wrong adding those new features and admit it, it may happen.
Oh and Freedom, just hang in there. I know you are very frustrated but don't quit just yet. The ZC community needs your great quests and it would be a shame to see a questmaker like you leave. But you can be sure if all our cries are going to waste and the developers screw something up by adding those new features to ZC 2.5, I and probably many more quest developers will be gone for good. Yeah, I'm that close of just giving up as well, can't stand this anymore, but I will still try to patiently wait and see what happens because I haven't given up hope just yet.
Elise: There will always be someone to play ZC and make quests. There are hundreds, no, millions of Zelda fans, and someone will stumble on to ZC even if everyone who's here now leaves. ZC isn't the kind of project that can just die. I feel confident in saying that ZC has reached, if not surpassed, the level of widely respected development tools like rm2k and Game Maker (both of which I used to use before finding ZC).
Petoe: Hey, there was a time Roc's Feather was a pipe dream, right? There'll be a stable ZC soon enough. 'Sides, I'm sure the developers keep backups of old ZCs just in case something does go horribly wrong.
Everyone: Let's try to calm down, okay? It's Christmas time! Even if you don't celebrate Christmas, New Years is soon. So you have no excuse not to be happy. Get happier. Now. I demand so. If you don't, I'll have my army of Iron Knuckles poke you with their axes until you get happier. 😉
(Off-topic-ish, but the scripting system uses C/C++ or is quite similar, right? If so, I can try to contribute some scripts and stuff, though I'm only a student programmer. Of course, I'm horrible with ideas, so if anyone has a script suggestion I can try my hand at it *hint-hint*. I might never finish a quest... but I'll try my hardest to help in other ways.)
Check the script request forum, I know some are in there.
Petoe wrote:Freedom, I'm sure Wolfie meant beta15, not beta16 like she accidentally typed.................
Oh and Freedom, just hang in there. I know you are very frustrated but don't quit just yet. The ZC community needs your great quests and it would be a shame to see a questmaker like you leave. But you can be sure if all our cries are going to waste and the developers screw something up by adding those new features to ZC 2.5, I and probably many more quest developers will be gone for good. Yeah, I'm that close of just giving up as well, can't stand this anymore, but I will still try to patiently wait and see what happens because I haven't given up hope just yet.
There are several things that have gotten me to the point I am now.
For one, right now my time is kind of precious, and I feel the time I've put into beta testing is being wasted since it isn't a stable release they seem interested in.
Also when "L" first started he said there was NO freeware program that could be expected to be bug free, and if that's his attitude then my attitude is then why should I waste my precious time with zelda classic.
I have several other freeware programs that haven't given me a minute of trouble, like my Eudora email program just to name one.
It's attitude and persistance that get a bug free program, and the drive to do what isn't the fun part, like fixing the bugs, instead of continuing to do the fun part of adding more and more.
I built industrial machines for years, building the machines was always a lot more fun than working out the bugs and tweaking them, but in that business, when a bug came up people lost body parts, so it HAD to be done.
Here it doesn't HAVE to be done, so there seems to be little interest in doing it.
I'm not getting paid for this either, so that excuse seems pretty shallow to me, but yet several have mentioned it.
I've been careful not to blame any one certain developer for the problems here, but I guess if I had to I'd have to say DN is the CEO of the developers, and they should be taking their lead from him.
All we need to know in that case, is what is DN's vision for ZC from here on out.
Yes, I mistyped, beta 15 is the correct beta. But you're right, Lost Isle is going through the updating process quite smoothly, probably because we aren't using any features that get changed every single time a beta rolls around, so it doesn't nearly effect us.
This sucks. I won't have internet hooked up at my house until December 29th. I'll keep working on ZC, but without proper version control along with _L_'s predicament pretty much kills any chance of ZC coming before the end of the year. January is the new date I guess :/
Take your time with ZC. Rushing through projects isn't a good idea. We'd rather have a comprehensive, working version of ZQuest and ZC than a buggy and incomplete version. Good luck, folks.
if they are not going to rush through they should disable the suggestion areas of this board so that they can focus on bugs and whats already been suggested.
Actually, at this point, I don't think turning off the suggestion board would do any good. All the ideas are wither wayyy to unreal, or else things the dev's have already decided to do, and this theres not point in giving the medicine after the sickness(Not that new features are a disease or anything, I just needed a good metaphor.)
Amaster42 wrote:Actually, at this point, I don't think turning off the suggestion board would do any good. All the ideas are wither wayyy to unreal, or else things the dev's have already decided to do, and this theres not point in giving the medicine after the sickness(Not that new features are a disease or anything, I just needed a good metaphor.)
its always easier to treat someone already sick then to prevent the sickness from occuring in the first place.
as you said... suggestions are pointless thus why have that board segment anymore?
jman2050 wrote:This sucks. I won't have internet hooked up at my house until December 29th. I'll keep working on ZC, but without proper version control along with _L_'s predicament pretty much kills any chance of ZC coming before the end of the year. January is the new date I guess :/
Heh, I didn't know you were down, too. I'm recovering from a hard drive crash, myself. Shouldn't keep me down more than another day or two, but still. Clearly, we're just not meant to get it done this year.
franpa wrote:as you said... suggestions are pointless thus why have that board segment anymore?
Well, this version should be pretty much finished, feature-wise, but we can always have suggestions for the next version. The Beta Suggestions board would still seem to be the appropriate place for those if they're related to features introduced in 2.5.
Saffith wrote:Well, this version should be pretty much finished, feature-wise, but we can always have suggestions for the next version. The Beta Suggestions board would still seem to be the appropriate place for those if they're related to features introduced in 2.5.
Don't forget the really easy suggestions which only take an hour to implement. Like the Peril Beam scroll. Or the "Don't show Link's position on subscreen map" Screen Flag.