jman2050 wrote:The thing is, I am confident enough in my abilities and the abiliies of my companion developers to have a stable version of ZC out before the end of the year. I also have another reason for setting such a deadline, though many of you will probably be very unhappy at said reason.Moving and vacation has been difficult for progress, but starting with he release of beta 16 (which will be soon), I'll ramp up my side of the development to incredible proportions. _L_ is doing he best he can, though I'm sure he wants an extended deadline (which right now, isn't happening). DN will also be doing the best he can once his hiatus is over. We're gonna be clicking on al cylinders, and though I can no longer GUARANTEE a New Year's release date, I can say it's pretty likely.
We need your help too though, which is why I made this topic in the first place. Instead, it became a place of petty bickering, with no one paying attention to said purpose of the topic. So instead of arguing about release dates, let me and DN and _L_ and every other developer argue about the merits of a New Year's release, while you all do what you're here to do and find some bugs and make sure quest compatibility is maintained. Doing anything else doesn't help us any.
Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I'm slightl stressed out right now
Doesn't sound harsh at all to me.
I've wanted just one thing since the release of 2.10, and that's a stable version, but every time one of these threads gets started you have a handful of people wanting stable and the rest wanting more more more.
It got to me to the point I made an ass of myself bitching about nothing but bug filled betas, I'm wondering what's kept you from pulling your hair out.
The truth is, the devs just need to ignore what everyone says, and do what they do, and the rest of us will have to live with it.
I agree Jman, I think everyone should just STFU and beta test.
Freedom wrote:
I agree Jman, I think everyone should just STFU and beta test.
Yeah, agreed. I will be doing tons of testing once b16 is released.
I will definitely shut up now because after readin jman's comment I am confident that he knows what he is doing and that he won't be influnced by people's opinions and cries for more features/quick release date.
Well *looks at developer's log* I might get this done before the end of the year if certain deveLopers stop adding new features that wiLL need to be debugged and tested thoroughLy before reLease...
Looks Like me and this deveLoper need to discuss some things :P
Did I sense a hint in that post jman?
Do I sense inner turmoil? :P
jman2050 wrote:Well *looks at developer's log* I might get this done before the end of the year if certain deveLopers stop adding new features that wiLL need to be debugged and tested thoroughLy before reLease...Looks Like me and this deveLoper need to discuss some things :P
another bug....
You missed two in the first Line 😉
oops...
bug in the bug report... make that three
you are correct about multiple height fonts. even games that i know have multiple fonts in them, do not use them in the same line or in a dialogue routine. what would be the sense of starting this sentence in courier and ending it in times new roman? that would look stupid, imo.
oh and the text doesn't "scroll", the first row is cleared, the rows after are copied back a position vertically when the "more" code is encountered. pretty much anyway. or basically what i mean is, it's all rewritten before another video update occurs. it happens fast and makes you think things are "scrolling".
Wolfie, this is an important thread and all you talk about is LOST ISLE!?!?
Speaking as a developer, Lost isle is important ... not least because getting it to run as smootly as DFW and Peteo would like would be a strong sign of a stable ZC. It's one of the largest and most complex quests I've ever seen and being able to run that is a good benchmark.
My suggestion: we release something anyway, if it's not ready then we call it beta xxx, if it is we call it "2.5". At least the raft bug will be gone again, the HCP item will animate properly, ...
I'd personally say there's nothing wrong with regularly releasing betas, we developers should together perhaps agree on a time of "no new features until we've debugged the old ones". I'd say the currently under development ones (item, enemy, and dialogue editors) should still be included though.
Freedom wrote:another bug....
You missed two in the first Line 😉oops...
bug in the bug report... make that three
its ok to exclude the L's with in *
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm starting to think it's time to just get things stable and not sweat the additional features like a dialouge editor. Why? Because, with a stable scripting system, users can take over some of those tasks and take the burden off of the developers. We havn't got a really robust scripting community yet, but we're training the first generation. Hopefully we'll start building up such a community soon enough.
Yes and no. When scripting came out, the point was raised that ZC should remain something the average non-programmer can use. I agree there, and I'm all for a dialogue editor. Besides, the actual coloured/sized fonts will take the same code to implement in ZC whether they're selected via a push-button in Zquest or via a script.
I'm sure large parts of the community would prefer a dialogue editor to script-only strings.
The question, once again, is which features should have which priorities. Perhaps making scriptable strings first and then designing the editor? But it's not me that's doing that part or ZC and I think it's only polite to leave the decision to those who are putting in the work there.
Right Koopa, but a well-written ZQuest script can be as easy for users as something in the game. For instance, if someone scripts up a code that displays a string when the player presses A in a particular screen location, or close to the FFC, then the user doesn't have to know how the code works; they just specify the string as an FFC D0-7 variable, and place the FFC on the screen.
I don't think that ZScript can currently display strings, and THAT should be added, but you see what I mean? ZScripts, once written, are pretty user friendly already.
I'd really like to see a Dialog and Enemy Editor, as well as a perked up Item editor, but if that means we can't get a stable release than what is the point. (Though I'd really really like an Enemy Editor)
Also if we can do it with scripting, and someone will write and distribute that script and help people like me (scripting retarded) to use it and make it do what I want, then I don't see why it is imperative that it be present.
Lotus_Eater wrote:I'd really like to see a Dialog and Enemy Editor, as well as a perked up Item editor, but if that means we can't get a stable release than what is the point. (Though I'd really really like an Enemy Editor)
Also if we can do it with scripting, and someone will write and distribute that script and help people like me [SIZE="4"](scripting retarded) [/SIZE]to use it and make it do what I want, then I don't see why it is imperative that it be present.
I prefer scripting-ly challenged 😉
BUT, You're right, what's the point of all the bells and whistles in the world IF there isn't a STABLE engine that you can actually release a quest with.
Actually they can screw the enemy editor as long as they allow me to extend the enemy tiles and specify my own enemy tiles. Heck even if you have to extend all the enemy tiles to extend them. That'd work good for me.
Yeah and stable would be good. Anyways, I think jman has made up his mind, so I wait for the next beta with beta'd breath 😊
As long as I can use script to edit whatever, write my own routines to give my game design a little more freedom, I'm happy. A dialogue editor is nice, but I can code a dialogue routine with the right script access as easy as pie.
The great thing about that, I think, like a few of you have said, would be that the developers would then be free to work on the real meat and potatoes while scripters like myself can crank out scripts/functions that plug-in and do what the masses are asking for.
At least it would give me something to do. Anyway all of this makes me think of this topic, seems like a similar idea:
http://www.armageddongames.net//thread/95169/
Don't forget, if you need a extension, you can use the chinese new years day.
C-Dawg, I see your point and that sort of thing I'm fully ok with. But for instance adding the roc's feather, ice rod, etc. as an item instead of having it solely as a script is in my opinion a difference.
Also, if you can add a "sword 5" in a list, "edit" and then set "damage done: 100 HP" like that that's a lot easier than a script and it's this sort of feature I wouldn't like to miss.
And again, whether we add a sword 5 over scripts or over a dialog is the same coding work (plus the dialog in quest in one case, the script parsing code in the other) and that coding in ZC is where I see the greatest bug potential.
Hey guys, sorry about being away for a week.
There's been a bit of a problem with my Internet connection recently. Let's just say that my ability to work on Zelda Classic is going to be a bit ...crimped, for awhile. I'll be doing what I can, but something tells me that the release version is not very likely to make it out this year.
Well, _L_, people seem to be right in what they're saying about you. We're most likely not going to get a release this year because you're adding more and more new features into ZC (Not that I hate that- In fact, I LOVE that! I could care less about WHEN 2.5 comes out as long as it has a lot of new features as is stable.). Then there's the fact that you're going against the words of other developers (or so I've heard...)...
Guys, why in the world are you talking about things from YOUR abilities? You say "We don't need a dialogue editor because I can make a script to force a string to come up.". That's just plain rude. You need to stop thinking about yourselves for once. Most of us (myself included) CAN'T SCRIPT TO SAVE OUR LIVES! So what good is it going to do if you have to SCRIPT in order to do what the planned dialogue editor is supposed to do? That'd break up ZC users EVEN MORE. There'd be the eliteists who can script and think they're better than those who can't, there'd be the people who can't script who get tormented by those who can, and then there'd be the people who can script, but actually try to HELP those who can't script (though not they way they'd want). These days, you guys are getting SO into scripting, that you're forgetting that NOT ONLY CAN SOME PEOPLE NOT SCRIPT, BUT SOME PEOPLE CAN'T LEARN IT OR SIMPLY REFUSE TO LEARN IT! Because of this, when someone asks for a simple script that they have no clue how to make, all they get is a message telling them to learn ZScript and make it themselves. What kind of people are you? That's the kind of attitude that could push people away, because that's not exactly helping.... If I knew how to script and someone asked for a script, I'd find out if they knew how to script. If they didn't, I wouldn't tell them to learn how to script and make it themselves, no matter how easy it would be to make. No, I'd do what I always do and actually help the person out.
Enough of that ranting. I don't want you people to hate me. But I DO what my point clear- Not everyone can script, so making all planned editors be scripting-specific wouldn't be the right choice. Now, if they were made as actual editors, then THAT would be the better idea, because then EVERYONE can use it. And that's what you want- Accessibility for EVERYONE. (Scripts are the only exception because they're supposed to do stuff that's HIGHLY advanced...)
So not even a semi-stable beta 16 coming out?
Well said, Pikaguy. Of course, I don't see focusing on scripting as such a big problem, as long as regular Joes are able to use them, too. You know, some way to export items, FFC scripts, etc. would be nice. And I don't simply mean, exporting the script to a text file and passing that around. Being able to contain an entire FFC or Z item in a little package would be perfect, because then people could code items that'll never get put in, like Roc's Feather (before it became a real item, finally), and then give a graphic for the item, set what Link looks like while using it (even if it's a new graphic), etc. Exporting it would copy the script and specific tiles it uses and put them into a single file which could then be imported into another quest. The end-goal for Importing that I have in mind is that it would just add the tiles one-by-one to wherever you specified in the tiles page and then link the script to that. Of course, some dynamicism would have to be added to scripts referencing specific tiles on the tiles page, so, that might be a bit difficult.
(Note: What I mean by adding tiles one-by-one isn't simply asking you where to put every single tile that a script uses, since it could be possible for a script to use hundreds. What I was suggesting was that you specify where to start, and then it just overwrites all the blank tiles in-a-row that it can, until it comes across a non-blank tile, at which point it'd prompt you for where to continue placing tiles. Of course, one-by-one in its true sense could be a useful way to add the tiles from a script too, so, maybe that could also be possible.)
Don't worry; a beta 16 will be out before 2.5 comes out.
pikaguy900 wrote:
Guys, why in the world are you talking about things from YOUR abilities? You say "We don't need a dialogue editor because I can make a script to force a string to come up.". That's just plain rude. You need to stop thinking about yourselves for once. Most of us (myself included) CAN'T SCRIPT TO SAVE OUR LIVES!
Stop whining. Scripts, once written, can be loaded and used by anyone. They don't have to know how to code themselves, just how to apply the code, and that's just as easy as doing anything else in ZQuest. Can you set up a DMAP? Then you can apply a ZScript.
Hey I don't know the first thing about ZScript and doing that, but I think it is fantastic. I agree with C-Dawg on this. You can just use the scripts that other people use, if you really want scripts in your game.
But I do think the Dialogue Editor is needed for 2.5. I don't want them to wait for another version after that because that would be a while. Ever since Jman wrote that thread about the Dialogue Editor back in August I wanted it so bad and even stopped my game progress to await it.
You know, you guys all say that scripts can just be passed around, but of all that talk, most(not all) of you than say a varient of "script it yourself"
(A quick aside, I could learn to script if I had an example, but my browser doesnt display scripts right, and I dont know how to view them in ZQuest.)
I gotta agree mostly with Pikaguy on this one, minus the maniacal ranting.
As for the whole "L is adding too many features" thing, well, Jman did the same thing when he came in. It was only after the promise(Jman's, I might add) for a 2.5 by the end of the year that all of L's features became a bad thing.
I know, I sort of feel sorry for _L_ because he is just trying to make ZC better. He has been working his butt off giving people what they want and he has done it in a short amount of time. If _L_ and others continue after ZC 2.5, I know ZC 3.0 will be off the charts, jaw-dropping. But yeah, I really want _L_ to do his thing, but I do want to see 2.5 finished by at least the beginning of February.
It is just everyone has been waiting for a stable version for years. And that is why everyone is at each other's throats. They are thinking if _L_ adds new things, it will never come out, and maybe that 2.5 will not be stable.
But I trust that it will be stable. And I do what _L_ to continue his thing, because he is doing an amazing job.
It is ironic, isn't it? My induction into ZC developer-hood a mere few months before the big feature freeze-up was scheduled?
For the record, most of the new features I've added since b15 are small trinkets, like the Peril Beam scroll, the Four-Way Ladder and the Charge Rings. I still intend to implement drowning and bottomless pits, because I feel that Roc's Feather implies their existence. And the foundation of the dialogue/string editor is in place, bugs notwithstanding.
So you're going to give us a nice new beta tomorrow right, so I can play with new features 😊
I like new features, they make me happy, especially when they help me reach my goals.
Don't forget to put in a combo type to counter gravity in sidescrolling rooms too, _L_, otherwise those'll be useless.