The Story of the Woman With No Authority

I suspect I'd just read a book, maybe going so far as to put a sleeve from a bible over it so as to avoid raising suspicion. But that's just me, since I don't like to draw attention to myself.

Honestly, we all know Beldaran's views on religion. Why must we constantly challenge him when we know he won't change his mind? If he wants to think of religion as a waste of time, that's his prerogative. Just let the heathen be 😛

No it wouldn't... People like that are authoritative morons. She gets off on pretending that she has some sort of power. Religion or no, we've got to take a stand against these backwards bozos who think that the sun rises and sets at their command.

My stand is that Beldaran did exactly what he should have.

I wish I had been there to have done that. I get a big rush out of challenging authority in such a calm, firm, and confident manner as Beldaran did.

I can just imagine that I'd be high on the experience all day, and the woman would be silently stewing over her failure for the whole day. What could be better?

Glenn the Great wrote:
I can just imagine that I'd be high on the experience all day, and the woman would be silently stewing over her failure for the whole day. What could be better?

Exactly. It made the whole rest of my day a little bit brighter. 😊

No, as much as I hate religion too, I side with Atma here. Your choice of college is a rather weird one for somebody with such sentiments towards religion. If there was a particular reason to go, such as options you could not find at other institutions(less religious ones), attending church services should have been considered an obligation you would be bound to in exchange for the benefits offered in that institution. Yeah, its a stupid requirement, but surely you knew before you enrolled you would be made to attend church. But instead you're being a dick about it and essentially not living up to your libertarian notions of contract fulfillments.

AlexMax wrote:Are you seriously trying to put him down for doing the smart thing in this particular situation? He specificly did not want to make a ringamarole out of the situation, but at the same time knew his rights and called her bluff. He was also smart enough to outwit the possible wrath of said vindictive woman. And he also knows that he's probably not going to get any sympathy from the administration, and probably doesn't have the financial resources to escelate it any higher. Ever heard of picking your battles? And do you honestly expect every athiest who chronicles his epxeriences to be the next Rosa Parks? I say that he played his cards right.

It's really funny that so many people are willing to "stand up for their rights" and get applause and back-pats from other nerds, but it's always in a case where (1) anonymity is guaranteed (2) the right that is being fought for is trivial (3) the target of the "fight" is a powerless individual. Seriously this reads just like the thread about the guy who is suing whatever electronics store because they dared to try and block his exit until they had checked his receipt. The characteristics are all there; the store clerk was some pimply-faced college kid who was doing his job, he had no idea who this weird dude with an attitude was and whether he really had the power to stop him from leaving the store, and what kind of right is "leaving the store without proving I paid for my merchandise" that it's worth a legal battle to fight for?

Beldaran could certainly argue that his rights of religious freedom are much more important than in my example, and I agree this weakens my case. My response is to restate that he is attending the largest Baptist college in the world and upset because the college's Christian values clash with his beliefs.

Like you mention later, there is a very real possability that Mistress Morbidly Obese will be back next time with backup. He'll cross that bridge when he comes to it.

Come on Atma, you can do better than this. I highly doubt that Bel's reasons for disliking christianity stem from how old it is.

Also I'm certain Beldaran has other reasons, but he's used the word "primitive" quite a bit in this thread and I felt like it would be topical to point out that Christianity is not very primitive when compared to more ancient systems of religion.

Okay, this is just getting retarded. It's a mildly entertaining story about a woman who wants to look better than college kids. No debate, no religion, no stance for civil rights, just a mildly entertaining story. This thread reminds me of the kids in English class who try to look smart, won't shut up, and say things like "I believe that this character was trying to . . . he should have . . . "

Just my two cents.

Atma get a fucking life and stop making retarded assumptions about me. I just wanted to keep playing gameboy and I didn't feel like listening to that idiot lady.

All I can say is that I'm eager to hear from Beldaran how the next session of Chapel goes.

This is really exciting because the fat lady is going to be there again. I want to name her Mrs. Conservo. I don't know how Beldaran is going to turn this in his favor, but I'm confident that he will.

I'm just not sure whose team I want to be on in this little skirmish. 😞

To anyone complaining about the direction of this thread, who cares? If you guys just want everything to be so cleanly cut and nice and neat this place will die because it will be so fucking boring. It's a topic about religion and Beldaran has posted once in it. Someone will eventually call him out on being a narrowminded atheist and Beldaran will undoubtedly refute it. It's how things go here. That's how people expand their minds and learn.

Masamune wrote:I'm just not sure whose team I want to be on in this little skirmish. 😞

Well don't we have such a scary avatar and signature?

😃

If we've degenerated to picking fights with people we have little idea about on the internet, then by all means.

First of, this story is very funny. Second, I'd also like to hear how the next one turns out. And third, taco. :kitty:

Dechipher wrote:To anyone complaining about the direction of this thread, who cares? If you guys just want everything to be so cleanly cut and nice and neat this place will die because it will be so fucking boring. It's a topic about religion and Beldaran has posted once in it. Someone will eventually call him out on being a narrowminded atheist and Beldaran will undoubtedly refute it. It's how things go here. That's how people expand their minds and learn.

Nobody learns anything from those worthless debates. They don't accomplish a thing.

phattonez wrote:Nobody learns anything from those worthless debates. They don't accomplish a thing.

You just need to pay more attention then. I'm learning a whole lot from these debates. I'm mostly learning about how correct my point of view is.

Dechipher wrote: That's how people expand their minds and learn.

Glenn the Great wrote:You just need to pay more attention then. I'm learning a whole lot from these debates. I'm mostly learning about how correct my point of view is.

You see what I mean, nothing is accomplished because neither side will change.

I don't know about other people, but I learned a lot while debating on these forums. It's not about convincing the other guy. It's about coming off as the most prepared.

Putting your ideas in contrast with those of other people helps you better understand yourself, and those you are debating with. It also helps you call your own views into question.

You think I'm a militant atheist who will never change right? Never say never. I am an atheist BECAUSE I change. I was a devout christian until age 18. Fortunately, I was smart enough to read books that disagreed with my viewpoints, and I was intellectual enough to entertain "dangerous" ideas.

That's my problem with religion; it's not an idea, it's a faith. You can change an idea, study an idea. You can't study your faith because it's not based on any rational principles. It's based on "I've decided in my head that my invisible friend is the king of the universe." and anything that contradicts that feeling is "bad".

If you are not learning anything from debates, than you either aren't paying attention, or you suck at learning.

^^I have my own personal reasons for my faith that I can't really use in an argument. It's things that I've seen that no one else would understand that convinces me in my belief.

Now, I think that the other debates here are very worthwhile, and they are necessary for all of us. These religious debates are worthless, though.

phattonez wrote:^^I have my own personal reasons for my faith that I can't really use in an argument. It's things that I've seen that no one else would understand that convinces me in my belief.

Now, I think that the other debates here are very worthwhile, and they are necessary for all of us. These religious debates are worthless, though.

I disagree strongly. I enjoy these in particular, because it's such an integral part of our every day lives. Everywhere we go we are confronted with religion. It's interesting to see the viewpoints from intelligent individuals (ie Beldaran and AtmaWeapon) as opposed to complete morons who think that what they believe is right because the Bible tells them so or because they resent their Christian upbringing (although Beldaran tends to exude the vibe of the latter, and plenty of members here exhibit qualities of the former.)

phattonez wrote:^^I have my own personal reasons for my faith that I can't really use in an argument. It's things that I've seen that no one else would understand that convinces me in my belief.

I've used that same line in the past.

I've since admitted to myself that when I was saying that, what I really meant was that I couldn't figure out why I believed what I did, and was just grasping for air. It was just a copout to get people to shut up. It was a point that no one could argue with. It allowed me to give a reason for my beliefs without really giving a reason. The reason was fake, but no one could prove that.

phattonez wrote:Nobody learns anything from those worthless debates. They don't accomplish a thing.

It's activity in the forums and until I see Atma or Belderan burst into flames because they are debating over something then I don't see a problem with the thread.

If you don't like where the thread is going then don't keep reading it.

phattonez wrote:Nobody learns anything from those worthless debates. They don't accomplish a thing.

Personally, I don't do it to convince the fundie. I do it to convince other people in the thread, or even people who are silently reading this thread without responding. They are who count, people who are rational enough to change their minds.

And simply because we are loud in our beleifs, please don't confuse being loud for being fundimentalist. There is no such thing as a fundimental atheist. Bel and I are passionate about our atheism, (or else we wouln't keep drawing ourselves into argument), and there are those such as Dawkins who be just as passionate as the kookiest fundie. The difference between us and them is that we are well aware that we can be proven wrong. Fundimentalists, however, at least in their minds, are never wrong.

Riverman wrote:Bel, I think you might consider a little patience with religious folk. If you had put your GBA away and toughed it out for the rest of the session, and then talked to her calmly and quietly in private when it was over, it might have been better for everyone. (Not that I don't love to picture this scenario, because I totally agree with you on where you're coming from. I would be playing my GBA too. [Actually I'd probably be playing my DS.])

Better for everyone? Who exactly? This was an exchange between him and Mistress Morbidly Obese, and judging by my (albeit limited) glimpse of her in his story, she is probably not the one to give him the time of day after service, or if she would she would probably scold him for his lack of beleif or respect, as if they are owed any in the first place.

I don't see why people are so anti-debate. The point of debate is not, I think, to change other people's minds. It's to put your own theories to the test. Give people the opportunity to put holes in your arguments, and in exchange, you get the change to do the same to theirs. In the end, maybe your original beliefs are only reinforced, but hopefully, with good reason. Or, you may see that there are major flaws with your theory, and so you are forced to reevaluate your position. At any rate, I think it should be about personal growth.

That said, here's my newfound stance on the issue of religion. It's utterly unscientific. And I don't just mean that there's no evidence for it - most theories start out with some observation, and then a hypothesis is made to explain the observation, and then the hypothesis is tested. Not the God hypothesis, though. There is absolutely no observation that could possibly lead to the hypothesis that there is an omnipotent deity. It's utterly arbitrary. If it weren't for 2,000-year-old mythology, religion wouldn't even exist. No one in this day and age would have any reason for making up a belief in God if one hadn't previously existed.

From a scientific point of view, there is no more reason to test the God hypothesis than there is to test the hypothesis that the Greek gods are real, or that the color purple cures cancer. It's absurd, and it's arbitrary. I mean, the ONLY observation whatsoever is a collection of stories from several thousand years ago. Since when are we in the business of taking ancient mythology seriously?

rock_nog wrote:I don't see why people are so anti-debate. The point of debate is not, I think, to change other people's minds. It's to put your own theories to the test. Give people the opportunity to put holes in your arguments, and in exchange, you get the change to do the same to theirs.

Exactly the reason I get involved in most of these debates (Or at least read every post). You can't grow or learn if you don't ask questions. Same things with faith. If you don't question it, it can't grow stronger, or be reevaluated to make more sense.

These debates aren't worthless...they give me something to read while poopin' 😃

The real issue to me is that Belderan was told to do something he didn't want to do, and whether or not that was right or wrong. Not whether Belderan is an athiest or not. Why does that even matter? Christians, Muslims or whoever can refute authority just as well. And besides, he has that awesome Terminator avatar. The reason this debate spawned off on religion is because of name calling.

First off, everyone should want respect, and people should not be criticized for wanting it. So I don't think there is a need to be disrespectful to anyone in authoritive roles just because they are above you. Unless they do something that doesn't deserve repect, I will try and be respectful.

It was also pointed out that you attend a Baptist college. The Baptist, unlike some other denominations, do require you learn more about Christianity. So it shouldn't be surprising that you are required to have a church service, which has also be mentioned. Its a class just like any other class, and is required just like universities require you take orientation classes.

In my opinion though, you should have put the GBA away. I would not play my GBA while I'm in a sociology or history class, even if it has nothing to do with my major. I don't like either of those subjects, and don't care to learn about them, but the teacher is trying to teach to other people, and even with the sound turned down, its probably not good to play in class. I feel its disrespectful to the teacher. Some people don't like stuff like that disrupting class, other teachers don't care. To me, this church service is just like any other class. If you don't want to listen, don't. If you're not having tests on anything in it, then it doesn't really matter if you do or don't. But to flat out refuse a simple command, that's something my 6yr old nephew does when hes told to pick up his toys out of the floor.

Thats my $.02

Oh sure, respect, yeah, everyone deserves that. The authority to make commands to other people, that's a a different matter entirely. That has to be earned. And not only that, it absolutely requires the consent of the person being commanded. In this example, Beldaran did not give consent to be ordered around. No human being should be able to hold power over any other human being unless a mutual agreement is made. That's the entire basis of our system of government. And yes, while you may say that a system of government has nothing to do with our personal lives, I would argue that our system of government stems from an underlying philosophy which should permeate all aspects of life, that of freedom and individualism. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but that's simply the way I see it. Now, you might question the wisdom of an atheist attending Baylor, but that's a whole different can of worms.

For those who can't imagine why I'd go to Baylor, here are my reasons:

I would have had to wait an extra year before going to a state school in Texas because I needed residency. Out of state transfers, at the time, had almost no hope of getting into University of Texas. I could have gone to Texas State or or something, but why would I do that when I can go to such a nice university here at Baylor?

I'm getting an amazing education. I am on a first name basis with several of my engineering professors. Classes are small and intense. I will be lined up with an amazing job at graduation.

I have a kick ass scholarship. Even though Baylor is insanely expensive, it's actually cheaper for me to go here because of my scholarships and grants.

I don't particularly care that it's a religious school. However, I find chapel really offensive. It's not a class. It's a religious service. Nothing is learned. I just sit there and watch people sing and worship and talk about Jesus. It's pathetic. And now they want to force me to pay attention, not just be there. Well fuck that. If I can't play gameboy without being hassled, I'm going to just put my ear plugs in, bring a pillow, and go to sleep.

If you do that make sure that someone takes a picture of it. It's not good enough without a picture. 😊