Who wants a stable release?

thank you DN for doing something 😊 greatly appreciated.

(copy/paste from PureZC)

I voted 2.

If the developers try to finish/add all the features they planned ever and they slip occassionaly some more new features in, then there will be NEVER a stable version.

The ONLY way to release a stable 2.50 is to stop all new features, don't improve the already existing ones and fix all bugs one after another!

Again, adding/improving features would leah to a cascade of bugs whiches would be too many to find and especially to truthfully analyse. Get used to the thought of Truth.

I don't mind beta testing one bit, but I do mind when it becomes ALL I can do because I can no longer work on my quest because of fear of one of the betas destroying it again.

Do you realize how many times I've added and then removed things like true arrows, or scrolls, or subscreens to go back and forth with these betas?
It's a total waste of time, and it removes all the JOY from dealing with this program.

Take a look at these great bugfixes.

* Editing a combo after having moved/deleted an animating combo no longer corrupts your combo table.

* Inserting combos on the combo page (with the 'i' key) now correctly updates combo aliases and freeform combos.

What else is there that I'm forgetting...

Well, anyway, we'll get there. So now all the bugs in 403 are mostly just minor ones. If you've got backups of your quests from earlier builds, it couldn't hurt to upgrade, knowing you can always roll back to your previous one, while taking screenshots of new art and screens and such beforehand if you do have to roll back.

i always love reading your posts ST, you word everything so perfectly >.> you always seem to sound so wise and you always make excellent use of AGN's emoticons ^^.

its pretty obvious with this poll here that people want a stable build.

I say a feature freeze, and get ZC to a stable state.

Also, the QDB should be fixed as well.

ShadowTiger wrote:I think this has been in the back of our minds for a while. It's far from a "MAJOR" point, but yes, it's a VERY good point that if we don't know how something works, then we can't really test it to the point where we can identify the program's faults (Bug-related or otherwise.) from our own lack of understanding. For example, it's a little hard to know why our custom items aren't working when all we see are "misc 1" and "flag 1" and "counter" and things like that. We have to go elsewhere for something that's not even an explanation, but just a list. With enough documentation and example quests backing these features, this problem could get stomped out rather quickly.

I remember L releasing a nice little example quest of the string editor. Naturally, most everyone looked to the thread it had been released in for the documentation, and tried to make a few interesting additions of their own. Some things worked, and others hadn't. I personally am still trying to figure out why the colors and fonts aren't really working properly, but I'm just not sure enough whether it's something I'm doing wrong, or if it's just not finished yet. I have to at least be able to tell the difference if I'm to bug test this, because I KNOW SOMETHING is happening, and colors ARE changing, but they're not matching up with what I was expecting. Thus, is it something like what the newcomers may experience with the warping schema and the Dmap slider? (Remember the trouble we used to have with that? .. Whooo boy. 🙄 XD ) It's just hard to tell.

...snip...

Petoe wrote:...snip... As long as nothing new is added to ZC, and as long as developers will try to explain all the new features better ...snip...

Documentation is one thing ZC needs right now. A lot of the features are usually unexplained when they're implemented. It shouldn't hurt to write up a text file to go with the newest betas that explain what the features do.. Or maybe the help text file you get when pressing F1 should be updated? I don't know.

C-Dawg wrote:What's that high-pitched whine I'm hearing again? I've been hearing alot of it around these days... makes me feel oddly compelled to say:

1. Once a script is completed, applying it is no more complicated than setting up a Combo. Not everyone needs to script, but everyone can learn how to apply a script while knowing zilch about the script itself.
2. Supply and demand. As more people use scripts, more people will make them.
3. The more users are scripting, THE LESS NEED THERE IS FOR THE DEVS TO ADD NEW FEATURES. You want something new? Script it or ask someone to script it. I know scripters don't get to every suggestion in the ZScript Request forums, but most of them get done eventually.

Stop it with the script-phobia. No, you don't need to use it to make a great quest. Yes, it will add features to your quest. Learn to love it.

Nine times out of ten, people that make a great script, just like people that make great tilesets, aren't going to easily release these scripts, because they're encrypted within the quest file. So we need people like you to help urge people to release their scripts, and maybe some thorough documentation on what script events do what, and explain things like sites like php.net's manual and python's manual sites do. There's thorough documentation for each function there. Why not with ZC's scripting abilities as well?

I really want a stable 2.5 as well, but I'm just afraid that if we don't finish up a few features, it'll be years before we see them in a stable build. I really think we should finish up the bugfixing, release 2.5, then make 2.6 have signposts, 2.7 have sideview ladders, 2.8 have drowning, etc., with only a few weeks/months between versions.

Amaster42 wrote:I really want a stable 2.5 as well, but I'm just afraid that if we don't finish up a few features, it'll be years before we see them in a stable build. I really think we should finish up the bugfixing, release 2.5, then make 2.6 have signposts, 2.7 have sideview ladders, 2.8 have drowning, etc., with only a few weeks/months between versions.

I like the idea of more frequent releases. IIRC, thats how Phantom Menace used to do it.

Woohoo, 5000th post!

Sideview ladders, as a borderline bug in the sideview engine, were given an explicit exception to the general ban on new features during the developer discussion about the ban.

Sephiroth wrote:So we need people like you to help urge people to release their scripts, and maybe some thorough documentation on what script events do what, and explain things like sites like php.net's manual and python's manual sites do. There's thorough documentation for each function there. Why not with ZC's scripting abilities as well?

There is some pretty decent documentation in each alpha release. (zscript.txt) The only thing that is missing is documentation on syntax.

I'll make some syntax documentation and put it in the SPEC topic.

Sephiroth wrote:Nine times out of ten, people that make a great script, just like people that make great tilesets, aren't going to easily release these scripts, because they're encrypted within the quest file. So we need people like you to help urge people to release their scripts

Like who? I don't know of anyone who is scripting in the dark. Every new script I hear of gets posted in Script Showcase pretty quickly.

I too honestly barely know of anyone at all that's withholding a script. I really hope that this doesn't turn into some sort of "It's my art, I drew it, so I should keep it to myself" sort of thing. Scripters appear to be even rarer than graphic artists.

I think we should/could also hold "classes" (Ha...) relating to ZScript and the like. Very possible using MoonEdit.

(One Hour Later...) EDIT: I just realized I made a pun where I meant to be ever so slightly sarcastic in that non-hostile way. Heh!

C-Dawg wrote:Like who? I don't know of anyone who is scripting in the dark. Every new script I hear of gets posted in Script Showcase pretty quickly.

That's why it's referred to "in the dark" 😉 :tongue: :goofy: *is shot*

mmm, i would have beta tested a fair bit more for a much larger period, but i prefer the good ol' 1.90 and 1.92 quests, and there were crippling bugs in the loader engine that was preventing me from playing these at all really >.>

only fairly recently was this fixed, and also i had that lag issue for a huge portion of alpha's as well, and that also was recently fixed, so yes, you may see me report bugs a lot more frequently then i did over the last few months.

There are some features that have been added but aren't completely bug-free, and some of those features I would very much like to use, but I definitely want a stable release.

My full opinion depends on what would need to be cut in order to churn out a stable release soon. However, one thing's for sure: I don't want ANY more new features. We really, really need a stable release. Not side-view gravity and more scripting toys.

I must agree with Radien. Less new stuf, more fixing.

People have been dieing for a new release of ZC. Top that off with a fixed database and we're all set. Hell I'd be happy with a working database. 😊

Some thoughts arise with the new .. er .. "policy." If things aren't going to be added, does this mean not implementing enemies like the Icerobe (Wizrobe-Ice) and its respective ice magic entity/sprite? Its references will be removed from the Enemy list, if they're not there already?

Also, what will happen to std.zh? It contains the line:

const int NPC_WIZZROBEICE       = 153;	

Oh the topic of std.zh, it contains all the numbers (I.e. 153 for the WizrobeIce) for the enemy and item ID's, among many other effects. Should we also mention the expanded ID's, up to 255 or whatever, for the Custom enemies and item ID's? I.e.

const int NPC_Z154       = 154;	

I have voted for RELEASE. I desparately want the stable release now. There are so many many bugs around. The features in suggestions will have to wait until after the stable release.

Step by step: Complete bug fixes go first. Release Candidates go second. If need of any more bug fixes, then a second Release Candidate goes third.

When all the bugs have been eliminated, a stable (final version) release goes last.

After the release of the stable, then work on the new features.

Holy cow, i've been gone for a week and there's like a hundred new bug threads and a bunch of fixes. If I would've known it would be like this I would've voted stable. Of course it doesn't really matter much now. All's well that ends well.

...I also realized from these discussions that if a stable version was released, then a buggy beta with the new enemy editor and other features a week later, i'd be using the buggy one to build quests on. Ha, that's pretty funny.

Good work Freedom. The bugs must die.

I am fully expecting a "No" on this, and I should likely encourage it.

If anyone checks Preview Mode, (Press "X" on the main ZQuest screen.) You'll find the ability to look at warp destinations. This hasn't been updated even since the multiwarp was introduced way back then. It still only has a single tile warp and a single side warp. THE side warp, in fact. The feature is incomplete not like how there are vestigial enemies in the tiles pages, but incomplete like having one arm with muscles and one arm with nothing but bone. It only half works. It can only half-way do its job. It's not for thrills and excitement; It's there to help quest makers ensure that things work the way they should. For it to be incomplete like this is more along the lines of a "bug" than something to focus away from in favor of quest-stopping bugs and the like. This can lead to quest-stopping bugs on the individual quest level.

can't you use the warp tabs themselves to check your warps?
I do.
I use the preview mode all the time but never the warp destination part, I see it as belt AND suspenders.

The next question would be, how many months would bringing it up to your desires add to the wait for a stable release, and how many new bugs would be added in doing so?

That's not a question. :shrug: I wanted, hoped for, and expected a no. You gave me a no. I'm happy with your answer and with your no.

You have your passions about a stable release, and I have my passions about a "complete" one. Yours are far more pressing, but a complete release is only almost as important.

Oh, and <off-topic insightful reference to something else>. Eh.

There will never be a "complete one"
With each new addition, then someone wants something to go with and compliment it, haven't you been watching the way things work for the last 5-6 years?
I didn't say no either, by the way, that's not up to me. 😉

Incomplete features will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. We've agreed specifically to put in the sideview ladder before 2.5. Missing enemies, etc. probably won't be put in - incomplete parts of ZQuest which can be grayed out will be, otherwise, such as in std.zh, documentation will be added detailing what is implemented and what is not.

Quick notice:

The poll is going to close today at 3:02 PM Central Time. If someone haven't voted yet, now is the time to do it before it is too late.

I have already made my vote earlier and my vote is RELEASE. (see post #107)

[SIZE="3"]The poll is now closed. [/SIZE]The winner is RELEASE. From now on developers, ONLY work on bugs.