Who wants a stable release?

C-Dawg wrote:Awful lot of whining going on in this thread.

I've been coming more and more around to understanding that it's the bug-testers, not the developers, who are mostly responsible for the lack of a stable release. There are likely tens of thousands of possible interactions between the various features of Zelda Classic, any combination of which might lead to problems. Some issues are obvious, and easily fixed. Other bugs are obscure and hard to detect. We have a few people making regular bug reports, but not enough to be testing everything. For example, there are probably only three or four people bugtesting scripting, and I'm the only one I know of now rigorously testing scripting's interaction with combo animation and screen flags. (Working fine so far, luckily).

I don't want to rag on the testers too much, though. I find the latest betas to be remarkably bug-free. Certainly none of the big obvious bugs like crashing during editing, items not working, etc. In fact, I don't think I've encountered a single bug in 356 that breaks my quests except the possible bug regarding carryover FFCs. (Your milage may vary). The new betas work very, very well.

So just be patient, and help bug-test rather than sitting on the sidelines from your older versions. You can make great quests with the old stable release, as Dark and Petoe are doing. Or you can bug test to help get the newer versions out. But this whining doesn't accomplish anything.

Ninja Edit - And as for ZC dying... what? The forums at AGN have always been slow-paced, I havn't seen much change in that. PureZC has always been a pretty cliquish site. It shouldn't be suprising that membership doesn't change much at either place. I grant you that newbies will find it easier if the updated ZC file was availible from the front page in big dumb letters. I also grant you that A COMPREHENSIVE TUTORIAL COMPLETE WITH PICTURES IS NECESSARY HOLY SHIT. But I don't see this "ZC is dying" complaint.

All I can say C, is after playing DOY and getting hours of annoyment instead of hours of enjoyment, I can understand why you think asking for something better is whining.
You made no attempt to even get the easier bugs out, so engine bugs are obviously not much of a concern to you. 🙄

Ok C-Dawg, maybe not dying, but its popularity has definitely decreased shitloads.

And sure, I guess you could put part of the blame on the ZC testers for the fact that there isn't a stable beta in sight. Only a few people are doing any testing, but can you blame the people who are not testing? Empty promises, broken promises, no new stable versions in ages even though it has been pretty close a few times... And then there's the new features, especailly scripting that no one knows shit about. Well yeah, you know because you are so goddamn smart, but there's no scripiting guides or any other FAQs made of the new features so how the hell can people test this new stuff when the developers don't care to explain how they work?? Geez.

And you saying that the newer builds are remarkably bugfree, well no offense but coming from you it is hard to believe. 😉
Even though you're in my opinion the #1 questmaker with your awesome design skills and story telling abilities, you never have taken bugs seriosuly, or so it seems. All your quest are so damn buggy, and it's a shame because that's really the only flaw I see you in as a questmaker. You just seem to think that bugs are a necessary evil and people should just live with them. Or have I interpreted you completely wrong?

But C-Dawg made a good point about not enough people testing.

Hmm... it is only talk, but it really seems the developers are finally concentrating on the right things and doing anything they can to get ZC stable.

Freedom... I know it is hypocrite of me to say this since just like you I have lost all faith in a stable ZC, but:
Can you find it in your heart to continue testing the ZC builds, despite everything? You were definitely the best and most hard working ZC tester and I really believe that if ZC is to ever get stable, it needs people like you to test it. I have to admit one of the reasons I stopped testing and lost motivation to work for the developers is because such an important person as yourself left. I am dead serious. It would give some hope to see you testing again. I know hope is not enough for you, and you have every right to be majorly pissed and not test, but I beg! 😞
You do want to see your quests released some day, right? You may have wasted your time testing ZC, but what about the time you used to build your quests? Do you want to see that go to waste as well? What is needed for you to test again?

Oh well, whatever you do, I will always have truckloads of respect for you for being the voice of reason and fighting an uphill battle against all the developers and the ignorant people.

As a bug tester, I also think that we suffer from lack of understanding of the program. I mean, I've almost stopped reporting bugs, because half the time it turns out that I misunderstood somthing, and it was working fine. This isn't saying the program is too complex, this is saying that we don't understand where stuff comes from. As an example, I had a problem where my quiver always had infinite arrows. I reported it, and it turns out that if the power is set to 1(or was it 0. Nevermind) you had infinite arrows. I never knew that. But we can't cut that feature out because one person forgot it when someone else will use it. We could use some more cohesive documentation, I guess that's what I'm, saying.(Although I still say that I never touched that quiver, so how it got like that...)

I made a quest in late 2005. It was fun to make, and I had a good time with it. I played a few other quests as well.

I eventually became less interested and my only exposure to ZC was through my brother, who is almost finished making the quest he's been working on since said 'late 2005'.

With the addition of a scripting language, I've become interested once again. I realize how much potential there is in this effort.

I blame any loss of community on the nonfunctional website/database, in which case you should direct all compliants to WarLord.

It's funny how c-Dawg commented on the whining. I am reminded of the Little Red Hen.

Who will help me find the bugs? Not I.
Who will help me fix the bugs? Not I.
Who will help me test the fixes? Not I.
Who wants to use the finished product? ME ME!

The fact is, active quest development is possible on the platform of your choice. Use 1.92, 2.10, or b254. Sure there are minor inconveniences in each version, but they are not critical. My brother has been actively developing on 2.10 for two years, and none of the bugs have stopped him.

With regards to 2.5 or whatever the number is, there needs to be a defined endpoint. I'm pretty confident that no new large features are being added. However, there are still some incomplete features. There are about five or six more enemies that need rejiggered. L is doing that. There are a couple combos that need added/fixed (no enemies, sideview ladder, etc.). There are a couple of zscript functions that need added. Finalizations need to be made to the various new editors (although I admit I don't know exactly what). I would much rather see a complete version that a 98% complete one.

Remember the longshot in 2.10? Not implemented. I don't want to see anything like that in 2.5. The ideas of item, enemy, string, and subscreen editors need to be fully flushed out. The same with ZScript, Z3 movement, new combos, etc. It seems that the current builds are very close.

THEREFORE I PROPOSE THIS.

Let's make a detailed specification. Super detailed. It's something that should have been done at the start, but it be worth doing now. The entire scope of ZC/ZQ should be written down and agreed upon by the majority. Then there is a goal to work towards. Once that goal is met, the new version is released.

I'll start a thread.

I feel at this point that I should point out that War Lord has said that he's working on repairing the quest database.(Although we haven't heard anything in a while...)

Amaster42 wrote:As a bug tester, I also think that we suffer from lack of understanding of the program. I mean, I've almost stopped reporting bugs, because half the time it turns out that I misunderstood somthing, and it was working fine.

Exactly... EXACTLY!!! 😊
To continue my message to C-Dawg, the lack of testing of the new features such as scripting is not the testers fault at all since there's no proper documentation/insturctions of all the new stuff. This one of the biggest reasons why testing just doesn't work.
If there could be a fix to this problem + all developers made a promise that there will be no new additions, none at all, we would be going to the correct direction definitely.
Oh and one more thing I ask from the developers is honesty. No more empty promises and optimistic predictions.

If all that could happen + testers like Freedom coming back, I would be a believer again.

Petoe wrote:Ok C-Dawg,
Freedom... I know it is hypocrite of me to say this since just like you I have lost all faith in a stable ZC, but:
Can you find it in your heart to continue testing the ZC builds, despite everything? You were definitely the best and most hard working ZC tester and I really believe that if ZC is to ever get stable, it needs people like you to test it. I have to admit one of the reasons I stopped testing and lost motivation to work for the developers is because such an important person as yourself left. I am dead serious. It would give some hope to see you testing again. I know hope is not enough for you, and you have every right to be majorly pissed and not test, but I beg! 😞
You do want to see your quests released some day, right? You may have wasted your time testing ZC, but what about the time you used to build your quests? Do you want to see that go to waste as well? What is needed for you to test again?

Oh well, whatever you do, I will always have truckloads of respect for you for being the voice of reason and fighting an uphill battle against all the developers and the ignorant people.

Hell Petoe, I'm just like you on bug testing, LOST

L crammed all that shit in there, didn't explain how any of it is supposed to work, and then started insulting people like Shadowfall for reporting bugs that weren't there.
Who wants to get into that situation.

It's a no win situation, you get insulted for testing and don't get a stable release for your efforts anyway.
Been there, done that.

I browse the bug report forums relatively often, and see no signs of insults. I myself understand the features and report bugs accurately. If I am in doubt about a possible bug, I read around the Beta forums. To my knowledge, when a feature is released, there is usually a thread or two pertaining to it. The problem (IMO) is that people are scared to push buttons in ZC. You would not BELIEVE the idiotic nature of some questions that are asked. So the Developers are doing an excellent job. Name some examples of features that got you lost.

I think the real question is: Who doesn't want a stable release? It doesn't keep me from testing, though. No matter how bleak it looks, I keep the faith in my mind that one day there will be a stable enough release, along with a working Quest Database. In that respect, I guess I can brag about my patience. Because I certainly can't brag about my mediocre quests. :tongue:

I have found the lack of attention to a certain door locking bug to be a bit unnerving though.

majoras_wrath wrote:I browse the bug report forums relatively often, and see no signs of insults. I myself understand the features and report bugs accurately. If I am in doubt about a possible bug, I read around the Beta forums. To my knowledge, when a feature is released, there is usually a thread or two pertaining to it. The problem (IMO) is that people are scared to push buttons in ZC. You would not BELIEVE the idiotic nature of some questions that are asked. So the Developers are doing an excellent job. Name some examples of features that got you lost.

well....
Here's an example of where he apologizes for two other instances, and then insults him again.
http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1126280&postcount=7
how's that?

Petoe: Of course I agree that any amount of bugs is bad. My point is that the more bugfree you want b18, the longer it is going to take to release. That has always been the trade-off; there certainly hasn't been a single release of ZC since the dawn of time which hasn't had a few little bugs. 2.50 should certainly be 100% bug free, but what about b18? I suppose a better question would have been, "how close is the current alpha to being released as b18?"

Been reading the thread, getting happy and sad again like a rollercoaster, as usual, and two things dawned on me.

First.

L crammed all that shit in there, didn't explain how any of it is supposed to work, and then started insulting people like Shadowfall for reporting bugs that weren't there.
Who wants to get into that situation.

I remember L releasing a nice little example quest of the string editor. Naturally, most everyone looked to the thread it had been released in for the documentation, and tried to make a few interesting additions of their own. Some things worked, and others hadn't. I personally am still trying to figure out why the colors and fonts aren't really working properly, but I'm just not sure enough whether it's something I'm doing wrong, or if it's just not finished yet. I have to at least be able to tell the difference if I'm to bug test this, because I KNOW SOMETHING is happening, and colors ARE changing, but they're not matching up with what I was expecting. Thus, is it something like what the newcomers may experience with the warping schema and the Dmap slider? (Remember the trouble we used to have with that? .. Whooo boy. 🙄 XD ) It's just hard to tell.

So yes, Freedom, (et all.) I'm gladly with you on this point. It's something that can immediately and obviously benefit the entire community, and is something we can all take part in, mostly without the developers watching over our shoulders to see if we're doing it right, as the effects are obvious to us with or without them in terms of what we can see when we do it.

Secondly.

It's a bit too late to be coding things out or firing someone to hope to get a more stable, or, dare I say it, a perfect release as people are hoping for. There's little anyone can do besides not introducing new features and testing what's there heavily and fixing bugs to speed things along aside from beg jman to come back and find out where DN's been. No matter how much we beg, no matter how much we flame, no matter how much we stop testing out of the futility of it all, it's not going to change a thing for the better. Hell, the more people whine, the more futile it seems for the developers that people aren't appreciating all the effort they're going to now for the sake of people who do nothing but whine that they're not trying harder than they already are. (Don't be blaming the knight when his horse keeper is starting wars behind him.)

As it stands, the code is far too interwired, to put it in non-C++ terms, to be coded out. If you start pulling things out under a car, it stops working. Same concept here. Things could be referencing other things that you wouldn't even dream about until after the total disaster, and you'd have far more to fix then than you would have had you left it to be. As I said, the Devs are making great progress, but going backwards now isn't the solution. Why climb the four miles down to the Earth when you've got one mile left to reach the heavens?

EDIT: Oh, .. the Database is probably not even really a part of the Devs' work. Eckels first coded it, and I don't believe he's done anything else for ZC aside from build a quest. The Database is more in AGN's Admins' hands than in the Devs'.

BTW, bigjoe, happy pre-5,000th post. :thumbsup: Could everyone include a little congrats in their posts? ^^. Would brighten up the atmosphere a bit. That's always nice. 😊

I wholeheartedly agree!! Please, devs, no more new features! No more! I think we've established enough of a difference from 2.10 now, even without the subscreen editor or scripting! Please guys! Get rid of the unfinished bits, don't add any new features, and just get rid of the bugs! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!! If there's anything you DO want to add, do it AFTER the stable release! It gives us something to look forward to! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!!!

You must realize 2 things:

1) He has a point
If no immediate documentation is available, what should a tester do? How about WHAT S/HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO? What might that be you ask? Hmmm.... I don't know.... something like TEST?! If a feature is vague and undocumented, I severely doubt any harm will come of experimenting with it.

2) That's not a blatant attempt at insulting someone.
Out of everyone involved with ZC, testers, Quest Makers, players, etc., I expect the Developers themselves to be extremely annoyed (if not pissed off by now), and disgruntled. So don't act so surprised and offended when a Developer seems to insult someone. Within reasonable limits of course, so long as it's not an outright (and obvious) attempt to insult. I'm surprised DN hasn't cursed someone out yet, seeing as how he's been on board the longest.

EDIT: This post is directed at Freedom's post, the one that pointed out a case of a Dev "insulting" someone.

Your post has a lot of good points and truth in it, ST.

Even though it seems like the only solution for ZC to ever be stable is to remove _L_'s features and _L_ himself as a developer, that would probably do more harm than good at this point, I gotta admit that. And I have some fragments of faith left in _L_. He has some great ability and skill, it's just that his attitude is so wrong. 😞 I really want to believe that he can learn from his mistakes and that he can be a good developer for ZC. I'm even willing to forgive all the grey hair he has given me if he just can make a promise of concentrating on bugfixing only and keeping that promise. If _L_ would concentrate on the right things, he would probably be a priceless asset for ZC. But with his actions so far he seems like a demon to some people and for a reason IMO.

Oh well, every time a thread like this pops up I am usally taking part in it. My posts are full of hate and anger and frustration, so it may seem like I don't appreciate the developers and that I despise them. That is not true at all! Everyone who becomes a ZC developers is a gutsy creature, and every time a developer fixes even one bug, my respect towards him rises a lot. But where does my anger come from? It comes from the fact that posts by Freedom and I don't seem to be taken seriously at all, and what comes to _L_, I've never even seen him apologize for the issues he has caused.
I'm just a lifeless guy with too much time and too much passion for ZC so forgive me. I invest tons of time for ZC and questbuilding. Quest making is my passion. I want to create stable and bugfree quests. It hasn't been possible after ZC 1.90 which was released about 5-6 years ago. But it's not the time that makes me frustrated. It's all the repeated mistakes. I can wait for a full stable release as long as needed. It's enough if one is eventually coming and all developers are working together for that dream, bugfixing being their main focus. All the mistakes that have been done, I can accept them and move on. Everybody makes mistakes. I just cannot take any more mistakes an bad decisions by the developers, there's a limit for that.

You developers should really try talking to each other more. DN should make clear to all of you what he wants and what should be the main focus with ZC... unless he has done that already.

Even though I'm just as frustrated as Freedom is, for some reason I'm still having urge to test ZC even though there's always the danger of all the effort going to waste like it seems to have gone so far. I dunno... a voice inside tells me that no matter what, too many mistakes have been done and there just won't be a stable ZC ever, but dammit, I'm not ready to accept that ZC is dead and beyond fixable. As long as nothing new is added to ZC, and as long as developers will try to explain all the new features better, I might try testing again after I get this major quest project released (which BTW is only possible because of Dark Nation and his bugfixes to b254. DN you're the best). And it would be nice to see something from _L_ himself, like a promise of no new additions or something. I want to see commitment from him to fix bugs! I mean, what prevents him from adding more stuff even though everyone's saying that no new fetures will be introduced...

AH! Our first call-in! This is from Hunter P Brown of Texas, USA. Stationed at PureZC, he writes via PM:

If a stable ZC does come out without all the glitches and bugs (we'll keep hunting for them, btw), I'll likely get back into ZC. If anyone remember the Separation of Boy and Girl game from around 2002, I can get back to working on the sequels and the DX version of the original. That'd be awesome."

Majora's Wrath,
You and I don't see things at all the same.
I see Shadowfall as a guy that does some of the top quest work in Zelda Classic, who has been around years longer than L, being insulted by a guy that set Zelda Classic promised stable release back probably years.

I considered his remarks toward Shadowfall insulting, weather you do or not, but more importantly, Shadowfall did.

I spent all of 2005 and 2006 beta testing with the promise, no the guarantee, of a stable release, and here it is 6 months after it was guaranteed and it's further away then it's ever been.

Where is my incentive to get back to testing, what's in it for me?
Guarantees and promises were already broken, what expectation do I have that the same won't happen again?

I started this thread for two reasons, to give others that want a stable release a place to say so, and to give the devs a chance to honestly give an answer to a time frame if it's ever going to happen, so I'd know NOW to wait around or move on and give up on it once and for all.

As things stand right now, quests I am working on are being done in 2.11b10 and if they are completed there is still no place that can or will host them anyway, so all the newer features that caused the promises to be broken mean little to me anyway.
Castle Haunt III was released in the 2.11b10b and even though it's the best of all the Castle Haunts by far it has gotten very little notice since people don't want to download the 2.11b10b engine to play it, and it isn't seen because PureZC won't host it, and AGN CAN'T host it, so as you can see "incentive" is getting trashed from every angle here now.

Castle Haunt III was released in the 2.11b10b and has gotten very little notice since people don't want to download the 2.11b10b engine to play it, and it isn't seen because PureZC won't host it, and AGN CAN'T host it, so as you can see "incentive" is getting trashed from every angle here now.

If you don't want to trouble anyone, there's also MegaUpload.com. Just keep the resulting links in your signature or in a thread, and you're good to go for quite a while.

ShadowTiger wrote:Ask around for a host. Some people are more willing to provide for the great quest makers of our day than not. I just don't want to force such a decision on anyone by mentioning their names.

If you don't want to trouble anyone, there's also MegaUpload.com. Just keep the resulting links in your signature or in a thread, and you're good to go for quite a while.

It's hosted on Elise's server and board, and on my server, but where do people go to find quests Shadowtiger?
They go to Pure's database and AGN's database, do they not? 😉

I tend to find the most quests when they advertise it themselves. 😉 Like what's in your signature. If they turn it off, it's their loss.

People that come to these sites to PLAY quests do things differently.
They aren't interested in spending hours going through all the posts, they want to get the quest, play it, and look to the one forum dealing with it for all their questions. 😉

You and I might do so differently because we're hanging around here with no life anyway

Right. (To both points.) I remember back in 2000 and 2002 when I was looking for quests. I found them ... everywhere. It was mostly in peoples' signatures, since there wasn't really an established database like what AGN's was, and Pure's didn't have a lot in it, (Although there was that one from ZCN, and that one hosted by ... ... ... Um ... That person with the cloud avatar. Cyclone, right, I think. Although, since the Database is actually down, people NEED to go to peoples' signatures and the forums to find the quests, or to Pure's expanded database now, or to wherever people refer others to.

So if we want the database restored, it's not something the ZC Devs can do on their own. War Lord himself needs to do it, from what I keep hearing, and it's something to appeal to him for. There's an #AGN chat we can go to to see if he's there.

No kudos for bigjoe? .. Nobody? .. Aww. =/

If you noticed I said the exact same thing earlier about Warlord needing to deal with the database.
BUT I will make this tentative offer....
Once my house sells and I get moved, if Warlord will let me know how much server space is needed and let me grab all the quests, I'll set up a server and a database and host all the quests.
It might not be the most fancy thing on the block but it will work and be there, and I won't let it sit tore up for any year +.

As for beta testing...
I've lost faith that they will use my time wisely and to get a stable release out, I already invested time for that reason and feel my time was wasted, and I'd rather waste my own time in my own way.
And since I can't program then there is little else I can do for Zelda Classic other than be disappointed with what has become of it.
There could have been a stable release long ago, but the decision was made NOT to do that, why I won't even try to guess.

A comprehensive quest database should also provide the correct version of ZClassic in one easy download. That is, each quest file is labeled according to which version is necessary. In big, stupid letters, the site should warn people that if they don't have the proper version, they need to click a radio button before they download the quest. The radio button will toggle the download between a zip file with just the quest, and a zip file with the quest AND THE PROPER VERSION OF ZQUEST.

Shadowfall may be a dedicated tester, but he also went wayyyy overboard in that one thread. Like his honor and life depended on it, or something. And I know I'm building my quest for 2.5, because frankly, 2.10 doesn't have what I need for my quest. I'm not talking enemy editors and stuff, I'm talking Roc's feather and FFC's.

Maybe itme and enemy editors were a bit complex, but I see it as:

1.) Can't do anythign about it now.
2.) They are pretty awsome.
3.) Once 2.5 does come out, you can bet peoples jaws are going to drop.
4.) 2.5 promises to have a few pretty cool release quests as well that will help pul people in. LI for one, and my massive quest that I'm working on.

Added a poll. Continue discussion if you wish, but be sure to vote in order to be counted.

I really can't vote. On the one hand, we need a stable 2.5 ASAP. On the other there are features like A->String combos and Side View ladders that I think we also really need. I do say though, that we can get rid of stuff in the enemy, item, and subscreen editors that aren't "implemented" yet. Those work well enough already that we can wait until post-2.5. The only thing I think we need to add there is the option for enemy sizes larger than 1 tile, because there is going to be an uproar on release if there isn't.

Complete Feature Halt. As of today, absolutely NOTHING should be added. Only little things that take like 10 lines of code and are virtually bug-free.

2.5 now!

I disagree, as much as I'd like for 2.5 to come out, an incomplete release is just as bad as a buggy one (IMO). But I'll be fine either way.

As long as scripting stays in, the rest of the new features can be taken care of at the user end. So I'm all for a stable release at this point.

Not that I'd mind a little added functionality in scripting...