Russell wrote:There's more to Biology then evolution. Just look at a textbook. Generally, evolution gets one or two chapters out of 30. So does that mean if I don't believe in 1/30 of a subject, I don't believe in any of it?
Rejecting evolution and accepting biology is like rejecting mathematics and accepting physics.
You have to ignore what DNA is, how it works, the fossil record, biodiversity, observed cases of evolution... you basically have to pretend that biology is just a bunch of disconnected facts about "living stuff". Evolution is the glue that makes biology the amazing and explanatory science that it is.
Russ, Russ, Russ... Evolution is the framework on which the entire field of biology is built. Really, I think it's kind of a shame the way they teach it in high school, because they make it seem like something separate that you can ignore if you want, but then I guess even more parents would be up in arms if teachers started explaining evolution's role in the rest of biology.
At any rate, I don't see what your fixation with this is. Will believing in evolution suddenly cause you to lose faith in God? There are many religious people who have no problem with evolution. And seriously, what does it matter? What relevance does the Creation story have to religion? Does it somehow negate Jesus' teachings to say that life evolved over millions of years?
Idk rock_nog, I'm sure he'll hate biology as much as I hate it right now while I'm taking genetics. Such a shame too because I liked molecular biology.
Beldaran, I find it interesting that you use "Biodiversity" as one of your examples of evolution. Creation seems to support that one more.
Anyways, evolution doesn't neccesarily refute Christianity. It all comes down to whether you believe Genesis is an acount on creation or a story to demonstrate God's power. I don't believe evolution simply because I see more evidence for creation.
Russell wrote:I find it interesting that you use "Biodiversity" as one of your examples of evolution. Creation seems to support that one more.
Except that "Creation" is not a scientific theory. It's just an emotional notion that somehow everything magically came out how you see it.
"Creation" doesn't explain anything. It just says, "This is the way things are. Try not to think too hard about how they might have gotten that way. It was magic."
Evolution perfectly explains biodiversity. Creation allows people to avoid thinking about how things got the way they are by assuming they have always been that way. It's dogmatic stupidity.
Just because an idea is easier to understand, does not lend it any scientific credibility. Quantum mechanics is almost impossible to understand and makes absolutely no intuitive sense to a lay person. However, quantum mechanics explains why things work the way they do. A better theory (in your opinion) would be "Magic Electron Theory". Electrons just work the way they work because God tells them where to go. That is a lot easier to understand. Unfortunately, not only is not even remotely correct, it's irrational by virtue of being unscientific.
Scientists do not gather in big conferences and vote on what ideas are easiest to understand and then decide those are true. Only religious people do that.
Geez, it's like talking to someone who believes the world is flat.
"I know the world is flat, because I can look out my window and I don't see any curves."
"But we've got pictures from space. The world is clearly round."
"Those pictures could be faked. But I KNOW that what I see looking out my window is real."
Etcetera, etcetera...
rock_nog wrote:Evolution is the framework on which the entire field of biology is built.
Although biology as a field of study did originate at the same time as evolution, the concept of studying life, in general, has been around since Ancient Egyptian times, long before the theory of evolution was ever introduced. How do you hope to explain this paradox?
this is it! im waiting right now to do my final installation clearing. after this, i'm ut of the army!
CaRmAgE wrote:Although biology as a field of study did originate at the same time as evolution, the concept of studying life, in general, has been around since Ancient Egyptian times, long before the theory of evolution was ever introduced. How do you hope to explain this paradox?
It's not a paradox. Our study of life was greatly limited before the theory of evolution was developed. It's like how Einstein's theory of relativity is integral to modern physics. Sure, the study of physics obviously existed before Einstein developed his theory, but nonetheless, modern physics would not exist without it.
rock_nog wrote:It's not a paradox. Our study of life was greatly limited before the theory of evolution was developed. It's like how Einstein's theory of relativity is integral to modern physics. Sure, the study of physics obviously existed before Einstein developed his theory, but nonetheless, modern physics would not exist without it.
I understand that our study of life was originally limited. The point I was trying to make was that our study of life was not originally grounded in evolution. Well, whatever; I hate debating, anyway.
Now, onto a new topic...
My neighbor received Settlers of Catan in the mail this past Wednesday, and we and a bunch of other guys have been playing for the past three days in a row. Has anyone else ever played this board game before? I think it's an interesting and unique game.
Anthony wrote:this is it! im waiting right now to do my final installation clearing. after this, i'm ut of the army!
That's good to hear! Wishing you well wherever life's road takes you.
😃 Good for you Anthony! Glad to hear you've almost exited hell! The exit is juat a little bit further!
Russell wrote:I don't believe evolution simply because I see more evidence for creation.
umm..... >_> I'd like to call you on that. Would you please state your evidence, or at least your reasoning?
And on a side note...over 2000! ...Wow...I've lost that much of my life already?
I'm afraid to see Russ's response there, Aegix. I mean, on the one hand, we've got geology, genetics, the fossil record, astronomy, etc. ALL pointing to the same thing, and on the other hand, we've got... a gut feeling? Yet somehow that gut feeling trumps everything else?
It's more than gut feeling. I'd try to explain, but it's really beyond explanation. It's like feeling your parents love when your a little kid, but 1,000 time more powerful.
And there's tons of evidence that I'm too lazy to post right now. Mabe after school, if I can get over this laziness streak I've been having.
Russell wrote:It's more than gut feeling.
Russell wrote:it's really beyond explanation.
Russell wrote: It's like feeling your parents love when your a little kid,
And you propose we throw out 150 years of rigorous scientific inquiry in favor of this? You propose that this "feeling of love" be taught in science classrooms?
NO! That's the point! You can't teach people to love God. It's a free will thing. You have to be willing to love him.
And did I ever propose to stop teaching evolution? It's a theory, just like any other one. I just think that the odds are against it.
Russell wrote: It's a theory, just like any other one. I just think that the odds are against it.
I think you don't know what a theory is.
Okay, that's it. I'm just gonna start bashing my head against the desk, and not stop until I've killed enough brain cells that anything Russ has to say about evolution makes sense.
You know, reading your angry posts is kind of fun. I wonder...
I believe the Earth is arond 15,000 years old.
Russell wrote:It's more than gut feeling. I'd try to explain, but it's really beyond explanation. It's like feeling your parents love when your a little kid, but 1,000 time more powerful.
In other words, it's a really STRONG gut feeling. I seeeeee...
Look, trusting your gut is perfeclty reasonable when dealing with day to day descisions (girlfriends and dropping nukes, not included). Intuition in the face of an imminent problem usually works with a reasonable amount of sucess. HOWEVER, when dealing with advanced theories, and science...intuition doesn't stand for anything. For a theory to be valid, it needs proof. Lots of it. So I'm sorrry Russ, but unless you're lazing around on a virtual megaton of evidence, then: Lots of proof for evolution > gut feeling that we all just poof'd here.
And WHAT, may I ask is so bad about evolution? Isn't it perfctly reasonable for you to consider that God ORCHESTRATED it? I mean...Why just conjure up a whole bunch of new species when you can just tweak and improve existing ones?
Even the mighty power of nature/the universe has its limits, ya know...
And Rock nog...here's a much more efficient method to killing brain cells. Go on 4chan, on /B/. Post there actively every day for a week, then report back here.
Here's an image I found on Encyclopedia Dramatica's article on science that I thought I'd share:
CaRmAgE wrote:My neighbor received Settlers of Catan in the mail this past Wednesday, and we and a bunch of other guys have been playing for the past three days in a row. Has anyone else ever played this board game before? I think it's an interesting and unique game.
Settlers rocks. I play it with my sister once in a while. We each own a copy of the game, and what we've found to be really fun is to combine the pieces of our two sets and play Giant Catan. You need twice as many victory points to win, the longest road starts at ten segments, and so on and so forth. It's a blast.
I've never heard of Settlers of Catan, but I do play Knifey Spooney and I'm pretty good.
My personal forte is Civilization: The Board Game. A board 3' by 5', several hundred city, improvement, and technology cards, and close on 800 little unit miniatures.
Good times, good times.
Modus Ponens wrote:Settlers rocks. I play it with my sister once in a while. We each own a copy of the game, and what we've found to be really fun is to combine the pieces of our two sets and play Giant Catan. You need twice as many victory points to win, the longest road starts at ten segments, and so on and so forth. It's a blast.
This reminds me. One of my neighbors made up a new development card called the Barack Obama card. When drawn, the card is played immediately, and everyone places all their resource cards into a pile. This pile is then shuffled and distributed evenly amongst all the players. Oh, and it's worth one defeat point (-1) for whoever drew it.
http://en.akinator.com/
Anybody seen this? You think of a person, answer yes or no questions, and it guesses who you're thinking of. It got almost everybody I was thinking of. It even has obscure video game characters and Swedish politicians. 😊
It's tragic, really. Russ is another person who has been snubbed for Nobel prize, despite his revolutionary new research which proves conclusively that the entire field of geology is wrong.
Russell wrote:http://en.akinator.com/
Anybody seen this? You think of a person, answer yes or no questions, and it guesses who you're thinking of. It got almost everybody I was thinking of. It even has obscure video game characters and Swedish politicians. 😊
The thing failed to guess my person. O:
Russell wrote:You know, reading your angry posts is kind of fun. I wonder...
I believe the Earth is arond 15,000 years old.
So carbon 14 dating is just wrong? Or is god magically changing all of those readings?
You know what I find strange about God? A couple thousand years ago she was very active, and chatty with the people of earth; now she's nowhere to be seen and the only evidence she even exists is from the written records of those people God used to talk to. Why doesn't God talk to anyone anymore?
Shazza Dani wrote:Why doesn't God talk to anyone anymore?
People are always claiming god talks to them. Just turn on the TV. There's bound to be 3 different evangelists desperately trying to warn you about their messages from god. My mom thinks god talks to her. Russell thinks god talks to him. Christians are always receiving telepathic messages from their invisible jewish zombie who is his own father.
Yeah, but back in the day, God seemed to make an effort to reach the nonbelievers. Nowadays, he seems to think a 2,000-year-old game of "telephone" should be good enough for us, and if any of us is skeptical in the least bit, rather than send us a sign to reassure us, he makes us burn in hell for all eternity.