Lotus Eater: Well, you are correct that the engine is a modified Zelda 1 engine, but the engine can be modified to accomodate for new features, and it can be done again if neccessary. There was no Z-axis in ZC until the Roc's Feather came around (enemies that flew around used an invincibility trick). FFCs and Zasm/Zscripts were another modification, as well as custom SFX. A feature that requires a modification to the engine is possible to implement, but just more difficult, and causes more bugs.
Zelda Classic 2.11 Beta 16
Technically the Z-axis came first, the Enemies were using it in Beta 11 or 12 if I recall. And the Roc's Feather was an eventual by product of it and scripting.
from 2.11 beta 1
10. Sprites now have a Z variable. This allows for expansion for new enemies (and other things) that will be able to jump and fly. Although a few enemies already do this (tektites and peahats, for instance), the calculation for them is faked. The new method makes jumping/flying easier to do from a programmer's prospective.
Freedom: Exactly my point... Although I was wrong in that it existed before the Roc's feather... But the engine was changed in order to accomodate for this.
I personally say, get it stable enough for that 2.5 release and then take what coding there is left to save and start a new engine from the ground up. We've taken the engine as far as it can go without being ridiculous. Going any further and you might as well stop calling it Zelda Classic and just call it "Rpgmaker, the unreleased beta"
"but the engine can be modified to accomodate for new features, and it can be done again if neccessary"
How many times can you modify it before it breaks. Fold a steel sword till all the impurities are gone, fold it some and it becomes brittle and breaks. Sometimes things can't be built upon anymore. I think Zelda Classic has hit that point. It should be finished as a Zelda 1 Clone. That is what it is. We have all been trying so hard to make it into something it is not, and we are seeing the effects of it. The engine is simply too strained to support much more. We have pages of rules in order to maintain backwards compatability, we are trying to add all these things that simply should be left out. Even I was clamoring for an enemy editor that would allow me to build an SD3 styled quest, yet, I realize that is not what ZC is for, nor will it ever be in it's current status. The engine is dated, it needs stabilized, it should get finished as it is. Then be final, then something new can begin.
So... You are saying that advancement should stop? That's a bit amish-wish thinking if you ask me...
name-call it what you will Revfan, but I agree. 2.5 should be the limits of what ZC can and should ever be reasonably able to do. Its already able to do much more than anyone ever dreamed it could do, but its reaching a point where it could very well break. Its best to just finalized what we have now, call it good and start off with something completely new. The new features in there alone could last us YEARS and YEARS with the new quests that could result from them. So be glad that these new features will usher in a new age of Zelda Gaming. RAther than just having 'more and more'
I've decided not to do Z3 scrolling, at least not until 2.5 is released.
Would you like a foot massage Jman?
DarkFlameWolf wrote:name-call it what you will Revfan, but I agree. 2.5 should be the limits of what ZC can and should ever be reasonably able to do. Its already able to do much more than anyone ever dreamed it could do, but its reaching a point where it could very well break. Its best to just finalized what we have now, call it good and start off with something completely new. The new features in there alone could last us YEARS and YEARS with the new quests that could result from them. So be glad that these new features will usher in a new age of Zelda Gaming. RAther than just having 'more and more'
Perhaps if everyone were like you, but sadly, you are the only person like you, and that is, simply, that. People will get sick of ZC within a year, 2 tops, without the new features. Maybe some of them will stay past that, but within 2 years I can easily see ZC starting to fade and die.
Maybe I'm just afraid of ZC to just stop, as pathetically it's the only thing really stopping me from putting a gun to my head, or maybe I just hate it when people preach to me, I've never been one to follow religion.
Revfan9 wrote:So... You are saying that advancement should stop? That's a bit amish-wish thinking if you ask me...
That's nonsense Revfan, NOBODY ever said that.
They said get it stable BEFORE it gets to the point that it has to be ripped apart and started over with just to get it to work.
You can't continue to pile bug on top of bug and then expect to sort it out at some later date, and at the same time expect the people that USE the thing to hang around year after year and wait.
I was never reffering to advancement of features in the betas, I agree that stability is more important right now. I was reffering to the recent start of the topic that no more versions of ZC should be made after 2.5
never following religion, maybe that's why you want to put a gun to you head. But back to the topic: Of course there would be something other than ZC 2.5, but it won't be ZC anymore, but rather a different entity altogether and a fresh new take on something we all love so much. Rather than just more bugs heaped on an aging engine.
And it won't matter either way, people will either get sick of ZC within a year or so after its stable and leave, or they get sick of ZC sooner with all of its bugs and leave now rather than later, take your pick.
Not listening to reason and trying to push your beliefs on everyone else is just human nature I guess. Ah well.
I have to disagree with ZC becoming an "RPGMaker". Game design is my hobby, and I have several RPG makers, and ZC is radicly different from anything I else I've ever seen. Almost all of them are standard Big Overworld, DragonQuest style battle makers. As for ZC ending, well, there are allways new features to be implemented, because Nintendo is still years ahead of us and still growing.
You're the one who is swearing off everyone who says advancement should stop and telling them that their opinion doesn't matter and its amish-thinking to you. Isn't that in a way forcing your beliefs on others? And when the heck did religion get involved anyway? I believe you brought that one up.
Revfan9 wrote:Not listening to reason and trying to push your beliefs on everyone else is just human nature I guess. Ah well.
I've noticed that a bit about you, both here and at purezc. but that's ok, you'll grow out of it in time, but we all still all love you just the same. 😉
Revfan, you are completely missing the point. We're not saying to stop ZC and then quit everything.
What we meant... was to Make ZC a finished state, BUT. BUT! But, turn the 'advanced version' of ZC into a different project. ZC would be the old expired version, used for old, Zelda-1 like stuff. This new project wouldn't have to worry about backwards compatability, and would be a lot less messy.
EDIT: To further clarify, in case people are still confused: We'd still have the ZC everyone is looking forwards to, with Z3 Scrolling and a billion and six different new features, just under a different name; Whereas the name 'ZC' would simply apply to a project that stops at ZC 2.5 or something.
Thank you Stungun, that's exactly the standpoint I'm trying to convey.
Stungun wrote:Revfan, you are completely missing the point. We're not saying to stop ZC and then quit everything.What we meant... was to Make ZC a finished state, BUT. BUT! But, turn the 'advanced version' of ZC into a different project. ZC would be the old expired version, used for old, Zelda-1 like stuff. This new project wouldn't have to worry about backwards compatability, and would be a lot less messy.
EDIT: To further clarify, in case people are still confused: We'd still have the ZC everyone is looking forwards to, with Z3 Scrolling and a billion and six different new features, just under a different name; Whereas the name 'ZC' would simply apply to a project that stops at ZC 2.5 or something.
Ah. Thank you, stungun. I can die happily now.
There are only 5 things that need to be done (other than stabilizing)
1. Finish string editor
2. Finish enemy editor (finish implementing all the flags)
3. Finish item editor (naming items! hello?!!)
4. Finish subscreen editor (or at least somewhat)
5. Optimize scripting engine.
Now do that, stabilize ZC and nothing more! If you just keep adding features, there will be more and more bugs.
Which is also what I have been saying.
I think Zelda Classic has come to the point where advancing the engine further is a bad idea, fixing it is fine. But we'll want a new engine to continue with past this point. Yeah, we'll have a huge slump where we won't get all sorts of new stuff, but then we'll have something fresh. Without the piles of baggage that ZC already has.
well, we won't really be in a slump, there will be quest arising from all these new features in the meantime while we're waiting for a new engine.
DarkFlameWolf wrote:well, we won't really be in a slump, there will be quest arising from all these new features in the meantime while we're waiting for a new engine.
Plus, people will keep scripting, and thus, the devs might get some ideas for newer items in the new engine. Though, if you ask me, if a new engine was made after 2.5, it should be an LttP engine. If it's supposed to have backwards compatibility with the old (current) engine, just put all the features from 2.5 into it that aren't already in. Simple as that, right? (Figure of speech. I don't mean that literally.) The reason I think LttP is because most of the features people want come from it or its GBA remake (Like Hurricane Spin). But that's just my opinion. For all I know, it could be a TMC engine instead... XD
Please note that I said where we won't be getting new features, I realize that people will be making their quests though. On the other hand, I actually forgot about scripting.
IF they build a new engine I imagine it will be able to do LttP and most likely Minish style as they are very similar.
Stungun wrote:Revfan, you are completely missing the point. We're not saying to stop ZC and then quit everything.What we meant... was to Make ZC a finished state, BUT. BUT! But, turn the 'advanced version' of ZC into a different project. ZC would be the old expired version, used for old, Zelda-1 like stuff. This new project wouldn't have to worry about backwards compatability, and would be a lot less messy.
EDIT: To further clarify, in case people are still confused: We'd still have the ZC everyone is looking forwards to, with Z3 Scrolling and a billion and six different new features, just under a different name; Whereas the name 'ZC' would simply apply to a project that stops at ZC 2.5 or something.
i agree here... its just too hard retaining backwards compatibility... and would speed up development of new features quite a bit if you finished and made a solid fully backwards version and then started anew on a new version from scratch.
I think a new Engine should focus more on Action-Adventure style games LIKE Zelda more so then Zelda itself... So many awesome games have been "Zelda Clones" but brought intresting thinks to the table (Secret of Mana, Alundra) If a new engine is made I think the developers should not be tied to a particular game. "A Generic Action Adventure Engine that is more then able to make a Zelda game."
This also makes current legal grey areas ZC falls in a little less grey.
*coughRPGMakercough*
I half like the idea and I half don't. On one hand, it allows for more flexibility than something strictly for Zelda. On the other hand, that makes me fearful of ZC becoming like RPG Maker and it does nothing but bring in such an onslaught of n00bs who do nothing but make incredibly crappy games. One of the things I always liked about ZC is how noone really knew about it. Although this reduced the community to only a few hundred people, it did mean that people who became serious about making games that were worth a shit were capable of forming without being smothered by the constant wave of newcomers.
we cud lwys hve R oWn LOCKED forum wr U hav to B a gd tiper und conribut to suff!!!!!!!!😊😊😊😊😊😃😃😃😃
....
*Ahem*, sorry. But if you couldn't read that, we could always have our own locked thing where only those who can type in complete sentances with punctuation, and actually contribute rather than just ask questions and suggest outrageously complex features. The Beta forums have kinda been this way for a while, as most nOObs acess from zeldaclassic.com, but that could all change.