[5th Quest Entry] Imzogelmo

Just finished level 1 and found an extra heart container. Definitely like the style, feels very authentic and the difficulty was good. A couple of things I found: there's a room with some enemies and a blue bubble, but the blue bubble isn't the first enemy on the list so it gets replaced by a Goriya upon return which would suck had you lost your sword in the next rooms. Also are the boss room statues in level 1 for decoration or should they be firing?

Level 2's red dot is not where the triforce is (it's one room above it), don't know if this was intentional or not.

Thanks for the feedback. The Blue bubble in that case probably wouldn't be an issue (as there are other blue bubbles in the dungeon), but I will adjust them anyway. The statues in the boss room, I did intend to turn on (I'll have to see if that makes it too tough though...)

I checked my other dungeons for out-of-order bubbles. In some of those I had mis-ordered them too. Some of them I left in, so that backtracking would be more interesting. I am a believer in blue bubbles appearing at least SOMEWHERE in the dungeon if there is a red one. I'm not opposed to making you walk back a few screens, though.

I also found a couple of minor issues to tweak, so I'll bundle these into it. One room in the "Raindrop" level had you locked (shuttered) in a room with Wizzrobes and a large portion of the room is water. If you picked up a clock, you (potentially) could not reach the Wizzrobes to kill them, thus you were trapped. I have fixed that issue along with some tiles incorrectly placed and minor graphics issues.

[strike]I will upload a new version tonight or in the morning tomorrow.[/strike]
New version uploaded, links updated.

[spoiler]
Don't let the first level fool you, it gets harder. I wanted everyone to feel some sense of accomplishment, while also trying out some new ideas. Level 2 is more tricky (and bigger). Level 3 is actually small, but still quite tricky. Level 4 is where I tried to step it up quite a bit on tricky; probably the most tricky until level 9 actually. Level 5 it gets more difficult. That's my "separate the men from the boys" level. It's also tricky, but not quite so bad. Levels 6 and 7 continue at around that degree. Level 8 is really hard, but not as tricky as others. Level 9 is brutal, in both ways, as it should be. [/spoiler]

I'm enjoying trying to figure out the overworld secrets since they are on different parts of screen so you literally have to bomb every wall to find if there is something there or not. I couldn't find a dungeon item in Level 2 yet though I've been to every room so I need to comb that over more carefully. Searching for a white sword or Level 3, and found Level 9.

[SPOILER]In the feed the Goriya room in Level 2, maybe you need to have the room with a shutter for the side door, as I didn't have to feed him to proceed, and coming back to feed him doesn't seem to do anything unless I'm missing something again. [/SPOILER]

[spoiler] yep, that was supposed to be a shutter. Nice catch, thanks. 😊 also, you are right again, looks like i forgot a flag in the room where the item should be. D'oh~! I could've sworn that was working before, argh.
[spoiler] Double Spoiler! You can use the cheat --redacted-- to turn on level 4 cheats, and give yourself a raft. I'll upload a fix but no reason you should have to trek into the dungeon again for the raft[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I hope it's still enjoyable despite the, ahem, bugs. :S

EDIT: Fixed those two issues, reuploaded.

EDIT2: I made it possible to play some levels out of order, so if you find one just a little ahead, you can still try your hand at it. Note that this usually ends up making it harder than it should have been (and you may miss out on a treasure), but having that flexibility is fun to me, so I thought it may be fun to others also. However, note that the same rule does not apply to beating the bosses; some bosses need an item from the same dungeon to defeat them.

I must have forgotten push flags in item rooms like at least 4 times when I made mine. Every time I would test a new level, ahhhhhh guess we're not getting the Whistle today! lol

[SPOILER] I'm guessing the raft was supposed to be in the dead end with the Gleeok?[/SPOILER]

love for fire wrote:i must have forgotten push flags in item rooms like at least 4 times when i made mine. Every time i would test a new level, ahhhhhh guess we're not getting the whistle today! Lol

[spoiler] i'm guessing the raft was supposed to be in the dead end with the gleeok?[/spoiler]

[spoiler] it was to be in the dead end with the lone goriya and a sort of c-shaped group of blocks. I wanted to make it be in an easy room after you've been in all those hard ones as a sort of change-up.[/spoiler]

Updated links as of 11/10/13. Found a rather large bug in level 6, making it hard to escape under certain conditions. Also added a "No-clock" script to the game, to be used in 2 rooms where you can be shuttered in with the enemies who may be out of reach of any weapons. Turning on a special screen flag makes the enemies not drop clocks, so you can't be permanently trapped by the clock pickup. Hopefully it hasn't stopped anyone yet. Another issue existed in level 4, where a passage wasn't triggering correctly, due to undercombo mistakes. Fixed those, should be good to go now. And finally, I screwed up a flag in level 7 that controlled a passageway, so it should be possible to pass it now. 😊

Edit: Final polish: 11/12/13 12:45PM. Fixed a lot of small bugs, plus a dull room and some too easy rooms also.
Ugh: One more edit 2:14 PM. Enemies that can't be killed when stopped by a clock leads to ugly bugs. Hopefully worked it out.
Edit: 11/15/13. Minor edit, added some extra message hints and removed a few stray unused warps.

******
In this quest, I tried to recapture the feeling of when first playing Zelda all those years ago. You don't know exactly where stuff is, or how it is supposed to work. It's puzzling, it's difficult, but over time it builds up until you know the rules. I tried to be hard but fair, but that does not mean it is ever obvious. A key word here is 'misdirection.' I did try to pull themes from the previous quests also, to add to the continuity. I think the difficulty is about right, but I'm not the greatest player by any means. I don't make too many rooms that lock you in, or prevent your escape, but I do have long dungeons so you have to be ready for the long fight sometimes. Knowing when to fight and when to run is crucial. Using your items effectively is also rewarded. I may be biased, but for me, it was fun from beginning to end. I hope others find it fun as well.

******

I'd really like to have feedback on the difficulty of the quest. If anyone finds it too easy or too hard, just say so.

Level 2 is crazy hard! Especially compared to Level 1. I'm just getting murdered and its not fun.

Believe it or not, level 2 was originally even harder, but I tuned it down a bit. Is there a certain room or section of the level that is too tough?

Having trouble going in any direction. The one room with numerous darknuts, a bubble and 3/4 of the screen unwalkable is just mean. There is another screen full of goriyas and darknuts with limited walkability. I've got nowhere in the level and so far died more than I did in nightmare's level 5. I had no deaths on your level 1, so the difficulty just seems way out of character.

Thanks for the feedback, justin.

The one with the darknuts in the tight space originally had more darknuts than it does, but it was just too hard. I'm not sure if you have the old version. The latest version has 4 in there.
[spoiler]It is a trap room, one which you should avoid at all costs, though.[/spoiler]

The other one, with the goriyas and darknuts, is one you can just continue past if you want. However, you can whittle them down by stunning goriyas with your boomerang, and using the blocks as shilelds as you kill the darknuts, before going back to work with the goriyas. (Note that this has the "ringleader" attribute set on the first enemy (a goriya, as you'd know by the key he carries the first time you're there) so you may very well get out without killing half of them at all). You can also get offset from the goriyas to avoid their boomerangs. Although it's not a necessary room to pass through, it is one that you can use to build up your skills.
[spoiler]The only reason to beat those guys is if you somehow ran out of bombs, which you should have plenty of since both ways leading into the room have bombs given to you, as a sort of hint. Also, if you beat them all, it does give you the opportunity to take a passageway, which saves you a lot of backtracking.[/spoiler]
Perhaps I should take away a couple of enemies there.

The gimmick of level 2 is that if it's hard, you're going the wrong way. I could tweak the enemies a bit, perhaps, though. You may need a way to farm hearts through that stretch, as it's deliberately a hard stretch.

Voting is now open for this quest. Vote for as many categories as you please, but be sure to vote before tax day!

Also, please post in this thread stating which categories you selected and explaining why you picked those categories.

Though Lv. 1:

1. Might be a bit "too" grindy to start. Boomerang, Arrow, Bait, to the tune of about 160 Rupees. This is worse than Chris's quest in beta. You might want to reconsider this.
2. Lose the Darknuts in 1. No real reason for them. Ropes do the job much better, and you won't get raped on NES authenticity.
3. The room with a Bubble, Keese, and Goriya: Bubble is not on the top of the list, making it disappear.
4. Yes, this quest gets personal in the beginning. Hard and brutal.

Got the Candle, now onto OW exploration.

Edit: Found 3 before 2, lawlz.
Edit 2: BUG, 2 screens north and 1 screen west of HC in 1st Quest (bomb hole by the ocean): Reappearing position not set.
Edit 3: lawlz, found Lv. 8. Totally unexpected.

-James

You found level 3 before 2.. and I never found level 3 lol. 1,2, 4 and I think 8 or 9.

OK, 2 is too hard. I can't seem to get full life anywhere, the "bombchu Dodongos" seem to nail me every time no matter how I move, and the Darknuts in the tight quarters seem to blow me apart. Also, there's way too much exploration with the enemy strength to stay alive.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. This is an enemy editor exercise, right? Take the Darknuts out of 1, if you're bringing them into 2 without the White Sword make a WEAKER version that takes 1-2 hits to kill, and does 1/2 Heart. Staying alive in an exploration dungeon is critical.
2. Watch your enemy counts: Generally the NES limited to 8 enemies, keep that in mind.
3. If there is an item there that leads to the White Sword or if I missed the White Sword (checked the entire OW with bombs and candle), please let me know.
4. You can use enemies as deterrents to make people follow the path if they need to get the item to get the White Sword.

Hope this helps!

-James

[MENTION=40498]Love For Fire[/MENTION], I did add a hint for level 3 since you played, so that could help a little bit. Also, you can actually beat 3 before 2 if you want, so don't be afraid to go off-order.
[MENTION=38509]Nightmare[/MENTION] You didn't miss it--The item in level 2 (or level 3) is needed to get the White Sword.

I thought I had uploaded a fix to the missing return point at the HC, so I may need to re-upload the quest.

The darknuts in tight quarters are supposed to be the kind of "enemies as deterrents" that you mentioned; i.e., if you are getting slaughtered by Darknuts in a tight room (a nearly impossible situation at that point), then you went the wrong way. Even so, I should probably dial it back a bit.

I appreciate the suggestions on the difficulty and authenticity. I will let you get a bit further and I'll make some changes to address those.

Imzogelmo wrote:[MENTION=40498]Love For Fire[/MENTION], I did add a hint for level 3 since you played, so that could help a little bit. Also, you can actually beat 3 before 2 if you want, so don't be afraid to go off-order.
[MENTION=38509]Nightmare[/MENTION] You didn't miss it--The item in level 2 (or level 3) is needed to get the White Sword.

I thought I had uploaded a fix to the missing return point at the HC, so I may need to re-upload the quest.

The darknuts in tight quarters are supposed to be the kind of "enemies as deterrents" that you mentioned; i.e., if you are getting slaughtered by Darknuts in a tight room (a nearly impossible situation at that point), then you went the wrong way. Even so, I should probably dial it back a bit.

I appreciate the suggestions on the difficulty and authenticity. I will let you get a bit further and I'll make some changes to address those.

Fix 2 and I'll get back on it.

-james

OK, will do, but not today. I have to work on Christmas tonight. Ugh!

Tomorrow looks good for it though. 😊

EDIT: If the version you have has a password, then it's not the latest version. I took the password off on the current one.

Found the White Sword, but yes, the critical path needs to be definitely changed. Use weaker enemies as lures and stronger enemies as deterrents.

Edit: Screen west of Lv. 3 1st Quest, and 1 screen east and 2 screens south of Lv. 1 1st Quest: Black caves, no stairs.

BTW, also think you should just switch Lv. 3 with Lv. 2 honestly.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for not being a total dickhead with the DRC's.

Edit 3: Just finished 3. MUCH easier than 2, should switch levels definitely.

Edit 4: You got some difficulty going for you in Lv. 4 bub! Ow on the Blue Darknuts without the Blue Ring! Still took you down though, ha! lol

Edit 5: Critical Bug. After I take the Whistle->Stairs early, I get eventually to a room with two blocks. I push the block and nothing appears. If this is the Ladder, I'm fucked.

-James

Nightmare wrote:Found the White Sword, but yes, the critical path needs to be definitely changed. Use weaker enemies as lures and stronger enemies as deterrents.

Edit: Screen west of Lv. 3 1st Quest, and 1 screen east and 2 screens south of Lv. 1 1st Quest: Black caves, no stairs.

BTW, also think you should just switch Lv. 3 with Lv. 2 honestly.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for not being a total dickhead with the DRC's.

Edit 3: Just finished 3. MUCH easier than 2, should switch levels definitely.

Edit 4: You got some difficulty going for you in Lv. 4 bub! Ow on the Blue Darknuts without the Blue Ring! Still took you down though, ha! lol

Edit 5: Critical Bug. After I take the Whistle->Stairs early, I get eventually to a room with two blocks. I push the block and nothing appears. If this is the Ladder, I'm fucked.

-James

I actually had strongly considered switching 2 and 3 when making the quest. I'll have to see what ramifications (ie adjustments) that would cause, but since you've said it and I had already considered it, I think that it's probably something I will do. (I had intended level 2 to be a sort of separate-the-men-from-the-boys level, obviously, but perhaps a bit too much too soon).

Also, your edit 5... which level is this in? I don't think you're at the level with the ladder yet... I am extremely mean and tease-y with the levels making you want that particular item, though. 😊

Per DRCs, I always hated those, and really, I don't want to punish you for exploring. I can't remember exactly how many, I think maybe 6 or so in the whole quest.

Getting ready to make some adjustments.

Nightmare wrote:Found the White Sword, but yes, the critical path needs to be definitely changed. Use weaker enemies as lures and stronger enemies as deterrents.

Edit: Screen west of Lv. 3 1st Quest, and 1 screen east and 2 screens south of Lv. 1 1st Quest: Black caves, no stairs.

BTW, also think you should just switch Lv. 3 with Lv. 2 honestly.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for not being a total dickhead with the DRC's.

Edit 3: Just finished 3. MUCH easier than 2, should switch levels definitely.

Edit 4: You got some difficulty going for you in Lv. 4 bub! Ow on the Blue Darknuts without the Blue Ring! Still took you down though, ha! lol

Edit 5: Critical Bug. After I take the Whistle->Stairs early, I get eventually to a room with two blocks. I push the block and nothing appears. If this is the Ladder, I'm fucked.

-James

I actually had strongly considered switching 2 and 3 when making the quest. I'll have to see what ramifications (ie adjustments) that would cause, but since you've said it and I had already considered it, I think that it's probably something I will do. (I had intended level 2 to be a sort of separate-the-men-from-the-boys level, obviously, but perhaps a bit too much too soon).

Also, your edit 5... which level is this in? I don't think you're at the level with the ladder yet... I am extremely mean and tease-y with the levels making you want that particular item, though. [spoiler]That is, if you find yourself thinking you need the ladder, then I'm doing it right.[/spoiler]

Getting ready to make some adjustments.

EDIT (first set of commentary by Nightmare):
[spoiler]

1. Might be a bit "too" grindy to start. Boomerang, Arrow, Bait, to the tune of about 160 Rupees. This is worse than Chris's quest in beta. You might want to reconsider this.
2. Lose the Darknuts in 1. No real reason for them. Ropes do the job much better, and you won't get raped on NES authenticity.
3. The room with a Bubble, Keese, and Goriya: Bubble is not on the top of the list, making it disappear.
4. Yes, this quest gets personal in the beginning. Hard and brutal.

EDIT (second set of commentary by Nightmare):
[spoiler]

1. This is an enemy editor exercise, right? Take the Darknuts out of 1, if you're bringing them into 2 without the White Sword make a WEAKER version that takes 1-2 hits to kill, and does 1/2 Heart. Staying alive in an exploration dungeon is critical.
2. Watch your enemy counts: Generally the NES limited to 8 enemies, keep that in mind.
3. If there is an item there that leads to the White Sword or if I missed the White Sword (checked the entire OW with bombs and candle), please let me know.
4. You can use enemies as deterrents to make people follow the path if they need to get the item to get the White Sword.

1. Yes, I added more than the required 2, as you'll see. For me, I never had any trouble with the yellow Darknuts though. Most of level 1 is just "run away, nothing to see here." But like I said, I'm not married to them.
2. I did not realize that, but the 10-enemy cherry was popped on the 4th quest entry, so it would be a step backward to limit it to 8 now, right?
3. Already addressed, and you found it. I just need to figure out whether to weaken level 2 or switch it with 3.
4. Yep, attempted to do that... My lone Goriya guarding the Raft is evidence of that. 😊
[/spoiler]

Edit 5 was in Level 5.

-James

Was that 2-block room immediately above a room with some Armoses arranged in 3 rows?

If so, then push both blocks...

I did, I got no stair.

-James

That had to be working, I couldn't have gotten past it otherwise...
I'll upload again in case something is screwy.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBVHN3UnBzVHZzRms/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT: Only recent changes are the fixes to the 2 OW screens missing their stairs.
From some of the comments above, I wonder if you got the pre-watered-down level 2 version, which had some other bugs (including this one, IIRC), so please get this new one (that's not to say there won't be more to do in level 2. I really do appreciate all the criticisms.) I just played level 5 myself, and confirmed it working on this version.

EDIT 2: I should take this opportunity to note that you can always skip a level in my quest except level 6's item must be used in level 7, and 7's in level 8. That's by design, and in some cases may be helpful (but never necessary).

To explain myself on the 'Heart' level; there is a point where you land in a room with 3 paths to choose from (and only one if no boomerang, which is possible). One choice is very bad, and leads you back out the "hard way". One choice is good, although you wouldn't know it except that I don't lock you in the room. The third choice is mediocre. It can get you where you want to go, but most likely it will just dump you back out of the level also. The "good" path is what I should work on, to make it more obvious.

When you near the item, it does get a bit easier. Probably too many Baby Dodongos there; although I did not find them to be too hard once i learned the trick to beating them (let them rush you, but dodge and kill when they reset). Currently they have the Rupees item drop set-- perhaps they should have Life instead?

Time to Dunce Cap you Imzogelmo.

http://youtu.be/IIzNJRYBWKI

This is why we don't test with cheats on.

-James

Push the right one, THEN push the left one, and if that doesn't work, you haven't got the recent upgrade.
(it's a tiered secret)

Imzogelmo wrote:Push the right one, THEN push the left one, and if that doesn't work, you haven't got the recent upgrade.
(it's a tiered secret)

You're DEFINITELY going to want to tip that one off better (unless you want more hate mail and videos. ;-P )! you don't need to put a guy saying it, but maybe two different color blocks to make it more obvious?

Also, bug: Bottom room on right of music note: Blocks are walk-through.

-James

Nightmare wrote:You're DEFINITELY going to want to tip that one off better (unless you want more hate mail and videos. ;-P )! you don't need to put a guy saying it, but maybe two different color blocks to make it more obvious?

Also, bug: Bottom room on right of music note: Blocks are walk-through.

-James

This is actually the 2nd usage of such a secret in the quest, so I figured it would be somewhat "expected" at this point. Color-shifting blocks is an idea, though...
It gets a lot more obtuse from here, so I may expect a lot of hate mail..
The walk-thru blocks are fixed pending next update.