No we shouldn't. Bugger off, newbies.
(Seriously, WTF spam)
Save Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes
I think the best course of action for you is to contact someone in charge at Square (eg, the lead programmer, NOT the legal department) and calmly and professionally make your case for why you should be allowed to finish your fan-made game. Some points that I would include are
* The game is free, and clearly labeled in such a way that it would not be confused for an official Square product.
* The game adds value to their brand by revitalizing interest in the existing games. Your game is sufficiently different from the originals (and NOT a ROM) that playing it would increase, not decrease, the desire to buy and play the originals.
* Precedent of other companies tolerating fans using their property in an unofficial game: Vivendi (The Silver Lining) and Black Isle Studios (Fan-made Fallout) come to mind.
Simultaneously, you should try to get the shutdown media attention, which is much more likely to sway Square than a "grass-roots" petition. Getting attention may be more or less difficult, depending on the profile of your game, but even if you can only get minor game sites and blogs to report on the shutdown, you can hope for a cascading effect where the story gets picked up by progressively more important media.
What's the story behind "instruct[ing] others how to circumvent our copy protection" described in the third-to-last paragraph of the C&D letter? My hunch is that this was a significant aggravating factor.
Only you would even read C&D letters.
...I decided to try reading that C&D letter too, after DD mentioned that part. I never saw that site before the project was shut down, but it looks like Square got mad over the people working on it putting up instructions on how to hack the ROM on the website, in addition to the demo. Apparently telling people about ROM hacking is as bad to Square as hacking it yourself.
This is why I don't like Square-Enix. They have next to no soul.
Like...I UNDERSTAND that they want to protect their IP. I think it makes perfect sense. But these guys were not out to make any money. They were out to bring the direct sequel that everyone wanted, but never got.
Also, my sympathy for SE is pretty low o this, since they've been keeping a bunch of "crono" related names copyrighted fro a long time now, but are not doing anything with it. If they were ACTUALLY MAKING a new crono game, then yeah, I could see them being a bit anal about this.
Ugh...Seriously, SE, start making good new solid IPs, or new games from old, awesome series. Enough with the neverending remakes!
(on a side note, I'm likely gonna get my hands on a torrenter, or something. I wanna give that dmeo a shot)
Also, like Wolfie said, they MIGHT have been able to squeeze out of it if they had kept it a total secret, and then BLASTED it over the internet when it was done (also, making sure thier names and stuff were kept secret, so no one could prove who worked on it, and thus, sue them)
Breaker wrote:Only you would even read C&D letters.
I find them kind of interesting, myself. Plus, it doesn't help that I've received a C&D before, so now, for some weird reason, it's "default" for me to read a C&D if one is in front of me. :\
DarkDragon wrote:What's the story behind "instruct[ing] others how to circumvent our copy protection" described in the third-to-last paragraph of the C&D letter? My hunch is that this was a significant aggravating factor.
With the DS version of Chrono Trigger, SE put in numerous copy protections in the game to prevent people from using the rom version on their flash carts. These protections would cause the game to freeze when going through the games time warps.
That and the rom file will mysteriously corrupt itself and become unreadable after about 3 weeks.
The former happened to me. The latter, .. no. I did find a hacked workaround copy though. Haven't tried it yet. Might not. Too many games to play at the moment, and I only use the DS while being transported from place to place.
Couldn't they do what we have here?
Re-code Chrono Trigger themselves, rather than rom-hacking?
I know it'd take a significantly longer period of time, but it'd be better than just declaring the project dead.
The cease and desist letter is saying they cant use the Chrono Trigger name, not the code to the game. Zelda Classic is no different...if Nintendo decides they dont want the project around anymore, they can send a cease and desist as well at any time. (of course since they havent done that yet, chances of it happening are probably pretty slim.)
If Nintendo didn't want ZC to use their copyrighted names it would only be a metter of renaming stuff in ZC so it has nothing to do with Zelda anymore… and people could still use it to make Zelda games. Those would be individual infractions that would at least keep the developers from getting in trouble.
Yeah there's a big difference between making a game that uses licensed characters and making a game creation platform that makes games similar to a licensed game. I'm almost certain if ZC would drop "Zelda" from its name and remove the actual LoZ quest files then Nintendo would have no real grounds for a case, which is probably why they haven't tried. Why bring out the lawyer and rile up public opinions when the target is only minimally infringing?
SE had no choice but to send a C&D. These are licensed characters and they own the sole rights. If they allowed the game to be released, then technically the authors have copyright on this fan game, which weakens SE's rights to the CT license. Even if the authors of the game license it in such a way that they yield all copyrights, there are consequences for SE if they decide to release a CT sequel because consumer interest might be disrupted by the existence of a free game with a similar scenario.
I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see one of these projects be finished, but I don't think it makes sense to believe that SE will allow any of them.
"No we shouldn't. Bugger off, newbies.
(Seriously, WTF spam)"
I wasn't "spamming". I was making a suggestion that has actually worked in the past. Look it up if you don't believe me.
And remember, you were once a "newbie" too. Everyone has to start somewhere.
Shainagirl wrote:
And remember, you were once a "newbie" too. Everyone has to start somewhere.
I can speak for most of us here when I say that we were never newbies. We simply exploded into this forum with thousands of posts, bad attitudes, and maladjusted social tendencies.
Lol! Quite the phenomenon.
Everyone was new once, but we didn't sign up here just to promote some petition for a Chrono Trigger fangame.
AtmaWeapon wrote:If they allowed the game to be released, then technically the authors have copyright on this fan game, which weakens SE's rights to the CT license.
I am not a lawyer, but I don't think this is correct. There are two separate issues here:
1. Ability to sue the Crimson Echoes developers. The federal statute of limitations for copyright infringement is 3 years from the date of the last infringing act. That means that if Crimson Echoes were allowed to be released, and the developers then completely dissociated themselves from it (ie, didn't continue to host the game on a website they run), SE would no longer be able to sue them after 3 years.
2. Ability to sue others who also infringe on the Chrono Trigger property. There is no such thing as "weakening" copyrights (contrast with trademarks, which can be lost if unprotected). If you create some intellectual property, you have complete control over if and how you want to license it. You can give person X permission to use the property, but that person X may *not* license the property to person Y unless X's license specifically allows it. If someone were to take Crimson Echoes and use, say, character sprites that are owned by SE, they would be liable for copyright infringement regardless of what action, if any, SE takes against Crimson Echoes.
Shazza Dani wrote:Everyone was new once, but we didn't sign up here just to promote some petition for a Chrono Trigger fangame.
Just because it's the first thing I posted about doesn't mean it's the only reason I'm here. Perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions. 😊
Indeed. My judgement was more geared towards metroid888, but I assumed you were both here for the same reason. I could be wrong, however I don't see you posting anywhere outside of this thread… �.�
When I mentioned copyright I wasn't speaking so much about the characters and assets related to CT as I was the plot and scenarios of the fan-made game. I was trying to illustrate why SE would be in a bad position whether or not the fan-made game had copyright to its plot and scenarios.
Though based on the views in 2, it is clear that fan-made games have no license to use assets and characters related to the CT license, so there's no "being evil" here as others are trying to characterize it.
I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm having a hard time justifying any tears for the developers of CT remakes/sequels. I'd love a sequel too but SE owns the IP, and they're the only people that can provide a sequel whether or not the fan-made game is commercial, proprietary, free as in beer, or free as in speech.
---
I certainly understand the ramifications of the copyright infringement here, but I don't believe their work should simply be lost forever as punishment.
SqaureEnix thought they had stopped all this homebrew fan nonsense when they stopped the prvious one. Since that obviously was not the case they have decided to wait till near the next projects end before issuing a C&D so as to "sting" the community for trying yet again to steal there IP.
I'd wager they did it on purpose in an attempt to stop anyone else from even bothering to do such again.
Lilith wrote:I'm going to start calling my period Crimson Echoes.
Post of the year, hands down.
I found about this pretty much when the news broke, because I visit romhacking.net somewhat regularly. While the release of this project would have been nice for ROM hacking in general, this situation doesn't really matter to me, because at the time I'd never actually played Chrono Trigger. In fact, the uproar gave Chrono Trigger enough publicity that I decided to try the original -- for about an hour.
So I went through the town, the millennium fair, the time warp, ended up getting swamped by a pack of Roly Riders, and found to my surprise that I'd lost everything. (Maybe I could have saved at the Inn, but hadn't figured out how at that point.) Now, it wasn't even quite an hour of gameplay, but still, it's a cold system compared to what you get in, say, any part of the Zelda series.
Well, I guess my point is, seeing as the Square-Enix RPG's tend to have "harsher" gameplay than Nintendo adventure titles, it might shed a little insight on the personality of the company as a whole, and help explain why Square-Enix dropped the hammer on this group, while Nintendo has left us (and Zelda ROM hackers) alone; though a notable exception might be in the case of Zelda II Enhanced, which allegedly got a similar letter from NOA a few years ago.
Sam Atoms wrote:
So I went through the town, the millennium fair, the time warp, ended up getting swamped by a pack of Roly Riders, and found to my surprise that I'd lost everything. (Maybe I could have saved at the Inn, but hadn't figured out how at that point.) Now, it wasn't even quite an hour of gameplay, but still, it's a cold system compared to what you get in, say, any part of the Zelda series.
Chrono Trigger is my favorite, and therefore the greatest, RPG ever.
Beldaran wrote:Chrono Trigger is my favorite, and therefore the greatest, RPG ever.
Amen to that, Bel, ha ha. In the midst of this whole situation, I have decided to download the PSX version of Chrono Trigger and am currently playing it on my PSP. I think I've played through CT at least 5 or 6 times in the past 6 years. Which is why this project would have been cool to play through for me. Oh well though, I guess I'll just have to imagine.
Important update to all you people concerned about Crimson Echoes:
A fan of the series who also has experience in law has taken some interest in the details of Square's letters. He is not defending the team, nor could he. He is only versed in literature claims and has offered to analyze the letter, see what Square means by what. In the meantime, some members believe that Squeenix sent the letter in error, confusing Crimson Echoes with a means to crack the antipiracy measures on Chrono Trigger DS.
It should be noted that Crimson Echoes was a hack of the 1995 Super Famicom title, not the 2008 rerelease. It also could not get around the 2008 game's anti piracy measures.