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Sentiments about the state of AGN

116 replies · 24,671 views · Started 31 August 2007

So, I could go into a really elaborate attempt to describe what I recall of AGN's history here. I won't, because that would obscure the point I'm going to try to make, it would be boring, and it would likely be inaccurate. Instead I will insert references to things as relevant to my general point, minor examples on the side for you to consider or ignore as you please.

What I'm going to do is basically express something really general that I feel has always been an issue, but not try to cite examples to back that sentiment up because I haven't the enthusiasm for it.

AGN has been a good community at times. It's inadvertently had huge effects on my life, and sometimes so for others as well; but mostly it's just a place where people hang out and talk. That's well and good. Many smart, clever, cool people have come and gone here.

Unfortunately, AGN has never, ever had structure, balance, or fairness. There were times when it was reasonably well managed, namely with Shadowblazer and Eckels handling things, but they've moved on to dealing with real life, and good for them. But as a community, AGN has always been skewed. War Lord cares just enough to own the place and try to keep it up and "alive", but has never really tried to make it a good forum community in my opinion; originally his friends were given leeway to do whatever they wished and consequences be damned, even if they were morons (anyone remember Frost?). This is not good management and it was harmful to the community. Since then, the problem has shifted around to different sources over time, but the consistant theme that remains is unbalance, unfairness, and always at least one petty, stupid feud going on. This continues today.

Sure, there are "terms of service" and it sounds well and good, but having rules, practicing them, and furthermore making the right compromises to maintain a peaceful, fair, friendly environment, are all quite separate things. AGN has never once succeeded at the latter, although the huge influx of people in 2001 combined with a lack of developed bad blood and bad staff helped keep things nicer for a time (not that I'm saying the present staff- what little seems to exist of it- is in any way bad, but there have been some very dubious examples. Mercy comes to mind in particular, and while I've come to respect him as a person and the general mythos about him is greatly exaggerated, Breaker was indeed a "strong arm" and has expressed, directly, that he doesn't care about the good of the community a whit).

AGN has never been friendly. The chat was a childish dictatorship until people lost interest so much that the thing has pretty much withered and died. The forums are little better, save that people have cared enough- many of them only due to rose-tinted memories and desire to talk to somebody in a semi-active forum for the heck of it- to actually still attend. A very few people. AGN has lost easily 2/3rds of it's long-time regulars; here's a list from memory. To add to the fun, I'll put a mark by any person that was gone for any significant chunk of time:

Warlord*
[strike]Shadowblazer
Phantom Menace
Nutz4Linux
Radium[/strike] (my memory fails)
Warlock (see above)[strike]
Sarria (orignally known as Skeeve22, also KingArthur)
[/strike]Jennifer (Originally known as Tails)*
Glenn the Great*
Moocow
Mrz84
[strike]MetaStaiford[/strike]
Vegeta1215
Lilith (Originally known as QueenXaviera)
[strike]Kenage
Kariqual Insanity
Plith
Nonsensical[/strike] (?)
Darth Chronic*
[strike]Goatboy
Axel
Breaker[/strike] (?) (Hello, sorry if I'm a bit rude to you with all this XD)
[strike]Mercy [/strike](Some abscenses are good in the opinions of some)[strike]
Ibis, God of Magicks[/strike] (for personal reasons not pertaining wholly to the nature of the forums... although that likely didn't help)
[strike]Zeo
Elemental_Knight
Dark Templar
Peach
Starkist
TGF Guy
JJ Maxx
Foxy
MrGame202[/strike] (I think that was his name? The old moderator guy?)
Dark Nation (?)
[strike]Eckels[/strike]
Cyberkitten*
[strike]Zaphod Q. IX[/strike] (Did I mention some abscenses are good?)
Beldaran*
Valerie/VEL
[strike]Aegix Runestone[/strike](?)
ShadowTiger (originally known as BrittainHero4)
Goki (?)*
Phattonez
Aegix Drakan (sorry!)
Biggiy05
Glitch

I could try to go on, but I think it makes enough of a point that I can think of 20 regular members who are long gone and not as many who are regulars now.

AGN can be a nice place to talk, now and then. But ultimately, there keeps being some stupid drama, etc. etc, bannings, etc. etc, bullshit, on and on. This cannot be blamed entirely on individuals' personal problems, although they certainly play a part in it.

The thing is, the community is not really fair, not really balanced. Sure, Glenn has flaws, but all present drama is tainted by old experiences; there's this huge, glaring assumption by most that he will never, ever change. He's not even allowed to anymore. Punishments and warnings are doled out on reputation, not on legitimate, fresh experiences. No one tries to keep an open mind or perspective.

There are almost no staff members. It's not even really a staff, it's just a couple of people running things the way they personally feel is right. That's well and good, but that's how AGN's always been run, and it's not well and good at all; it's crap. AGN should have a real staff, with real rules, with real "clean slates", open process, and input allowed by all members.

Also daunting AGN is a lack of purpose. ZC was a hell of a purpose, yes, and the program is still being improved, but it's not enough to make the community work anymore; it's old news. Real old. 5 years+ old. Shattered Earth, frankly, always struck me as unambitious, uncreative, and unstable, and it never improved and collapsed pretty quickly and easily; it's pretty damn dead now. The whole "Classic NES site" thing is a neat idea, but (A) it's been done, elsewhere, better, many times, and (B) we lack the real staff and enthusiasm to actually make such a thing worthwhile in it's own right.

Finally daunting AGN is a lack of stability. I'm sorry, but to be totally blunt, zeldaclassic.com is a piece of shit. It's updated annually, has a broken quest database, and not only features ancient versions of ZC in it's downloads area, but no clues as to how to find the super-secret hidden legendary mystical betas that can only be found via tiny-ass link on the forums. You expect people to find out and be interested by this?

Add to that the weak traffic of the forums and growing lack of interest, and frankly, AGN's starting to look like nothing more than a zombie of what it used to be.

Split off from AGN are many communities that are doing far better than it is, it seems. Gaming Universe and PureZC in particular come to mind; Kenage pretty much has to hide out and change her name to get away from this place, at that, and I find that sad; but yes, her forums are much nicer than these, too, and have more activity. Hell, while their site may be faulty, it's sadly a much, much better Zelda Classic resource than Zeldaclassic.com. At least you can actually, y'know, download custom quests and tilesets and stuff there. While I don't frequent it, I have to say their chat's looking a lot more lively and nice than AGN's has in 5 years, too.

In other words, what Breaker said to me some time ago is exactly right: "AGN is a small and dying forum." The thing is, it's dying because it lacked self-control in the first place, which lead to shooting itself in the foot repeatedly, then it curled up and waited to die while occasionally having violent tremors that seem like wild, far-out parties from it's perspective.

I hang around- and I use that term loosely given how I pretty much just randomly pop in when I feel like it- only because of nostalgia (which is never really satisfied by such visits) and because, at least for the time being, there's a few regulars around who might give interesting responses to stuff I say. Maybe.

My thought, then, is that if anyone cares enough to stop AGN from continuing this downward spiral until it crumbles altogether, then not only say so, but start doing something about it while you have some sort of a chance. AGN needs a staff, if the current staff is willing to work with it's people enough to enlarge (I recommend trying to do so fairly, like letting people request it, considering it, evaluating it, and making an open process of the whole decision; no BS random admin'ing of people you happen to like); there are people here who, if they cared, were interested, maybe brainstormed, could come up with ideas together for some kind of real projects or purposes to the site; and for god's sakes, does no one exist that can fix zeldaclassic.com? The site is just plain awful, and it's doing ZC a disservice just by existing in such a state.

These are just my thoughts. Do with them what you will.

P.S., I'm not officially sure who did that although it's pretty easy to guess, but I disincluded Amber because I didn't want to "drag her into" my little AGN rant, as I consider her a good friend. I was also trying to list main regulars that people would remember; Amber posted less than a hundred times if memory serves. Editing someone else's post without announcement in some kind of strange attempt to make a personal jab is sure kindly, professional, and mature, though.

I saw what Breaker wrote before he edited it out, and basically he called us all prepubescent idiots and/or adults whose testicles have yet to drop.

So clearly it is our immaturity that has killed AGN, and not people like Breaker.

Apparently if you don't enjoy getting treated like crap from some keyboard cowboy like Breaker, it means your testicles haven't dropped.

A lot of people have offered assistance by showing interest in moderating, helping restore/fix the QDB, and unfortunately most offerings have been ignored. It's no wonder that people feel AGN is in this position.

Thank you Jennifer for sharing your thoughts here. I can only hope eventually these types of threads will lead to some sort of change to help various parts of AGN get back on its feet.

hhmm...Jen has a point.

AGN is kinda falling apart. Some kind of action should be taken to prevent it from completely going to pieces.

And as far as I can tell AGN has never been very nice. But that can be countered by the fact that there are genuinely nice people here *nods towards ST, Prrkitty, and Jen, and the other great people*.

I just want to know how it can be fixed, and what we can all do about it. I don't want this site to die out.

BTW, in case anyone wondred I am NOT Aegix Runestone.

That is a good read there and it makes many valid points. I also wish I was on that list since I've been coming here since I registered, but meh. That's not the real issue here. The real issue is making AGN a better place for the people who come to have fun and all that good stuff. Such a solution will not come easily though as it must be something everyone can agree on which will not be easy.

On a side note: I forgot how creepy Breaky's avatar is. It look like he'll bite my head off if I let my guard down. 😮dd:

IMO, the most important thing AGN needs right this second is an ambitious and active staff. Administrators practically do not exist (save War Lord who is slowly stabilizing the new QDB, Warlock who inhabits the gaming forum often, and Dark Nation who is helping with the ZC betas). But as I take a look at the Forum Leaders, I do not even know half of them, and a half of the ones I know, I never knew were mods since they don't [seem] to do much.

Jennifer, you make very excellent points. I'd love to see AGN become magnificent again, and I would do whatever I could, but there are no opportunities for people like me to do anything. For example, I and Rocksfan have, over the past 2 years, volunteered numerously to help fix ZC.com and/or the new QDB, but the site of course is a sad project today.

The same pattern has occurred in the development of ZC 2.5. Thankfully Freedom gave the devs a kick in the butt (more so _L_ than the rest), and it is becoming more and more stable.

^^Umm, Lilith hasn't even posted in this thread.

So Breaker, only the cool people have left? AGN is just a nerd haven? Maybe goKi was right and we should just let AGN die because otherwise we aren't cool, and then what will our lives be?

It was sort of discouraging to have seen Breaker's original post before the edit. (I got there not one minute after he'd posted.) I've seen a lot of very encouraging posts from him in certain places, but that was just awkward to read...

It's really, really nice that so many people are so pro-AGN's future. It's certainly understandable to some degree that people grow up and have lives, or grow tired of a place. Eight or nine years of a forum must grow tiring on a person. (AGN existed in a certain form before 2000.) Just, .. if you don't want to be bothered about it, set someone up who wouldn't mind being bothered with it.

^^Umm, Lilith hasn't even posted in this thread.
Intriguing. Anyway,

No offense to the guy, but no PM I've ever sent Warlock has ever been replied to, nor have I ever seen him do anything administrative. The latter, of course, is due to permission masks and lack of clairvoyance, but the former is a little bit alarming. The latter could even use some little reminders of performance as well. Remember what Spiderman's mother said.

Well don't forget that he's still Breaker, and he's still a dick. However, now it seems like he's not so confident since he changed it so fast.

I've been here for a long time, so hopefully you all will listen to what I say, as I'm sure you wouldn't expect some of these comments coming from me.

AGN is an internet forum - we come and we talk about video games amongst other things. And just like in real life, not everyone is nice, and those people that aren't nice aren't going to be nice just because you don't like them.

Yeah, a lot of good members have left. A lot of them are concentrating on their real lives, and face it, a lot of them are growing up. Not everyone wants to post on a small internet message board about video games their whole life. Me, I've skimmed other message boards, and the amount of stupidity and childishness I see is what keeps me away from them. I like it here. I like having a small group of people I can chat with about the latest games who can make more than a stupid one-liner comment. Members have left, and it's silly to expect them to always be here. But a lot have stayed, and a lot of good ones have joined along the way who are still here.

Me, I'm a mod, but I've never stopped posting. I do what I've always done, and if some posts in my sections need cleaning up, I do it. Simple as that. Those above me do the same and just happen to have banning power. You talk about structure, but what more do you want? There have been times when former staff tried to make a bigger deal about the staff than it really needed to be, and it was stupid. If the staff is doing it's job you shouldn't have to see them doing it.

Yeah, some personal feuds have spilled over in the public, and I don't like it - I've made it a point not to discuss staff related topics in public forums or fight with people in public. But just like real life, people fight. The best we can do is keep out those that cause the most problems, but seeing that anyone can join AGN, it's not always easy. We can't pick who will post.

I've seen these threads before, and I roll my eyes every time I do because all anyone ever does is complain, without offering much else. Want more activity? Tell your friends about AGN, start a campaign, become more active yourself! You don't need forum staff to do that!

Hopefully this thread won't turn into one big fight, but I've been here longer than most of you, I've seen it all.

UPDATE: btw, I don't follow Zelda Classic anymore, and I don't know what is going on in development now, but I agree the website should be fixed - but there are few people with access to that, and also fewer people higher ups would trust to manage it. We (the staff) are thinking about it though.

vegeta1215 wrote:
I've seen these threads before, and I roll my eyes every time I do because all anyone ever does is complain, without offering much else. Want more activity? Tell your friends about AGN, start a campaign, become more active yourself! You don't need forum staff to do that!

I'm pretty sure that Jennifer and I made good points in the threads that we made, and we're both pretty active, so this doesn't make sense to me.

We need people who can do exciting things with the site, which means SMs and admins. Mods can only do so much, but I really think that we need more admins to keep things running smoothly.

I didn't mean to sound like I was pointing fingers at you two, so I'm sorry if you feel that way. There have just been many many threads like this in the past, and it's always the same thing. I guess I feel that way because I am fine with how things are. I do miss a lot of old members though.

I've never been a big topic starter, but I've managed to steadily contribute to threads. I'm personally happy with where I am as a regular mod since the forums I mod are the ones I read (I don't read much in GD for instance, and would not want to mod it). In the past there are times where I would've liked to have been able to ban spammers, but with ck and a few others back, stuff like that is getting taken care of.

I really wish that I had been here back in AGN's heyday. I hear you all talking about it and I just feel a bit left out.

I agree that we need to promote/help ZC to pull new people in, and a new staff to control things when we get there. ZC development is fairly active, bugs being fixed, and 2.5 nearing, but zeldaclassic.com is a total mess. I know that I would do most anything and take on any responsibility to help this place out. I'd volunteer to be a mod or smod, except that I know I'm so far down on the respect/seniority chain.

but there are no opportunities for people like me to do anything. For example, I and Rocksfan have, over the past 2 years, volunteered numerously to help fix ZC.com and/or the new QDB, but the site of course is a sad project today.

Totally. One of the best ways to put it.

I also have to wonder what other features the forum could have to pull people in. The return of the arcade would be nice, and some new reviews. But we also need other new stuff that people can't get anywhere else.
Okay, crazy idea time, and the devs can feel free to shoot me, but based on what I've seen done with ZC, MarioClassic, MetroidClassic, FinalFantasyClassic, and others would certainly be viable options.

And yet...I know that this thread is pointless. Part of me just despairs at getting the attention of anyone who has the power to do anything.

I think the reason people are dissatisfied is not random, meaningless complaining, but rather a disappointment that so many members have left because some of the staff (especially in the past, not so much now) have been so horribly unprofessional and negative towards people.

The reason there are 3 or 4 other boards filled with members that used to or would have posted at AGN is because they were driven away by the behavior of the staff.

phattonez wrote:Well don't forget that he's still Breaker, and he's still a dick. However, now it seems like he's not so confident since he changed it so fast.

Not at all, I just forgot how much I disliked getting involved in these little discussions with you guys, hence I edited it out. I'm hardly a keyboard cowboy. Aside from deleting spam from the forums, the last thing I did for AGN was unban Glenn the Great, Beldaran, ane others. I can't be blamed for the recent bullshit that's been plaguing the forums.

Unless of course it's to blame me for unbanning them to begin with.

I haven't been very active at all on the forums lately due to other commitments. Don't mistake this for arrogance, but I've just moved on from AGN. It's a small community of people that need to stop bickering with eachother and instead work on increasing activity, which everyone is capable of by posting more.

Edit: Wanna know something kinda funny? I only unbanned Beldaran, Glenn, and the others to bring some activity back to the forum, since the regulars weren't. I'm a firm believer of any activity is good activity, even if it's people bitching about how much they hate you guys.

Stop making me out to be the bad guy already and get over yourselves.

Hey....
We need people to test the Quarantined bugs in the latest version to make sure those bugs are truly dead. 😉

Once that's done, the developers can get on with a stable release.

Once that comes, then quests will be built and released again.

Once the Quest data base is fixed, they can upload those quests.

Once they upload those quests, new members will pour in here to play them, like they used to.

All the effort discussing it in this thread could have resulted in 2 pages or more of quarantined bug reports being knocked out. 😉

Having any?

Well I haven't been here that long to comment on the first matter in any way. But I also beleive zeldaclassic.com has got to be fixed at some point. There's no working database, the newest zc engine on the downloads page is 2.10, (and we all know how great that one turned out) and i've alway's wondered why there is no arcade...i've heard there was one at one time though. Bring back the arcade!

I'm assuming there is some sort of plan by Warlord, the admins, and devs to get the database working again once 2.5 is released.
...At least I would hope there would be one.

Amaster42 wrote:I also have to wonder what other features the forum could have to pull people in. The return of the arcade would be nice, and some new reviews. But we also need other new stuff that people can't get anywhere else.
Okay, crazy idea time, and the devs can feel free to shoot me, but based on what I've seen done with ZC, MarioClassic, MetroidClassic, FinalFantasyClassic, and others would certainly be viable options.

FinalFantasyClassic....That would be awesome! I second this. Although you'd need some people willing to start this project.

That is a 100% awesome idea in theory, but look also at how much manpower and effort by the developers, testers, and users it takes to maintain ZC. Every now and then somebody comes along who tries to assemble the resources to start up a new AGN project, but few reach critical momentum - see Open Zelda, Galaga Advanced, Project Seven, etc.

Although starting a new, successful project is probably the best way to revitalize the forum, it is also the solution that is completely beyond the control of the staff.

Freedom wrote:Hey....
We need people to test the Quarantined bugs in the latest version to make sure those bugs are truly dead. 😉

Once that's done, the developers can get on with a stable release.

Once that comes, then quests will be built and released again.

Once the Quest data base is fixed, they can upload those quests.

Once they upload those quests, new members will pour in here to play them, like they used to.

All the effort discussing it in this thread could have resulted in 2 pages or more of quarantined bug reports being knocked out. 😉

Having any?

You heard him people 😃

1. Breaker is the man, don't doubt him
2. Starkist is always around, how can you forget him?
3. Thanks for not even bothering to mention me, even though I've been around the whole time too...=p
4. No mention of TSA?

I am sick of people complaining about the forums, when everyone is individually responsible for his or her own activity and posting.

I wasn't on the list.

We had FF3 Remake, but that kinda died. I believe Kryten was the homeboy with the 411 on that shit.

I don't think AGN is dying and I think I'm one of the few people who still say that. Everyone freaks out about the lack of AGN's activity, but honestly, I'm seeing just as much as everytime else, it's just different people. The Dechiphers and Beldarans of years past are now the Amasters and Pineconns, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Although I am quite certain that myself and Beldaran were poor examples, but I'm drunk so leave me alone. 😃