phattonez wrote:^^^I never knew that you could control religious people easily.
phattonez wrote: Could you please try to control a Buddhist?
Are you claiming that this is a group of indivdualistic free thinkers that aren't under someone's control:
Because they look pretty controlled to me.
phattonez wrote: I think Hitler rallied his people pretty well without religion.
Nazism IS a religion. It uses exactly the same methods for infecting a person's mind with irrational beliefs that aren't backed up by scientific fact. One of the reasons I dislike religion is because it's basically no different than Nazism in it's psychological architecture.
I saw something on heaven's gate a few weeks ago and went looking for a site. This made me laugh.
How a Member of the Kingdom of Heaven
might appear
The Heaven's Gate cult is some of religious thought's finest work.
Guys you are seriously giving Beldaran free points; perhaps I should join this crapfest...
Show me an example of religion being used as the excuse for a people to feel superior to another group, leading to war and possibly genocide YOU HAVE 24 HOURS AND THIS HAS SERIOUSLY NEVER HAPPENED I WIN!
Also look I'll give you another point too Beldaran! Religion has NEVER clashed with scientific thought you will never disprove this point either!
Well I mean they just kind of seem to fail to realize that you are an intelligent individual who has placed his faith in science based upon the way you view the world, and it's not like you don't have reasons for disliking religion.
Honestly the only point you made that I was willing to debate over was the concept that someone who places faith in religion is somehow inferior to another who does not. I feel like my viewpoints leave religion for the nasty little problems that science can't really explain yet but leave me open to accept a scientific explanation when one is found. Personally I feel the "correct" mode of belief is one that you are comfortable in firmly defending despite arguments against it but in addition the firm denial of the concept that your particular belief system makes you superior to another. Honestly science has had its dark days as well and some of the world's problems are the result of scientific thought advancing more quickly than the ethical analysis of research can be made. A reciprocal argument can be made that religious thought can lead to superiority complexes and additionally the relentless quest to ethically verify every scientific decision stifles important discoveries.
At first I seriously tried to put forth this view of firm belief with an open mind but then the thread was quickly filled with arguments against atheism that you have:
- Already heard several times
- Likely already prepared arguments against since they are fundamental elements of any faith
- The ability to laugh at since they can be countered by a 3-second Google search
At this point, the thread became pretty lopsided as it mostly consisted of my views opposing your views and several expert witnesses supporting your claim that religious thought and logical thought cannot coexist. It became increasingly difficult for me to point out that a religious scientist is not necessarily a ridiculous concept when I am surrounded by examples to the contrary.
I have some more to add to this but I'm late for (appropriately) my World Religions II class at the moment so I'd better scoot.
I was in a really bad mode and studying for a test at the same time when I wrote most of my replies. So they are particularly acidic.
I don't think religious people are inferior to me. I think they are incorrect in their analysis that it is logical to decide what is true about the universe without evidence.
I also think that a big swath of them are influenced by their religion in a way that causes them to act horribly stupid.
There are and have been religious people profoundly more educated and at least as smart or smarter than I. However, the fact remains that they hold ideas based on something other than scientific evidence and I consider this to be illogical behavior, and I consider illogical behavior to be a slippery slope to destructive and ultimately insane behavior.
The reason I respond to the simple arguments of the others here is beacuse it might do them some good to hear their ideas challenged in a dramatic way. I know it did me a lot of good when I was younger.
Just to point out, Buddhism, lke Taoism, is on shaky grounds for being classified as religion. Both are more really life philosophies than anything else.
Amaster42 wrote:Just to point out, Buddhism, lke Taoism, is on shaky grounds for being classified as religion. Both are more really life philosophies than anything else.
I almost pointed that out too, but I didn't want to get involved in a technical discussion over what exactly a religion is.
AtmaWeapon wrote:Show me an example of religion being used as the excuse for a people to feel superior to another group, leading to war and possibly genocide YOU HAVE 24 HOURS AND THIS HAS SERIOUSLY NEVER HAPPENED I WIN!
Republicans use religion to make themselves feel superior to Democrats.
I also point to the major Sunni vs. Shia infighting in Islamic countries that has been erupting these days. Mass murder, being caused by divisions in the interpretation of a religion. These people are brothers in every way besides their interpretation of Islam.
Glenn the Great wrote:Republicans use religion to make themselves feel superior to Democrats.I also point to the major Sunni vs. Shia infighting in Islamic countries that has been erupting these days. Mass murder, being caused by divisions in the interpretation of a religion. These people are brothers in every way besides their interpretation of Islam.
Did you just fakepost a reply to my fakepost or did you seriously think I was serious 😕
AtmaWeapon wrote:Did you just fakepost a reply to my fakepost or did you seriously think I was serious 😕
Glenn's PC Speakers: "HEADSHOT!"
Atma: "I was AFK!!!"
Glenn the Great wrote:Republicans use religion to make themselves feel superior to Democrats.
I also point to the major Sunni vs. Shia infighting in Islamic countries that has been erupting these days. Mass murder, being caused by divisions in the interpretation of a religion. These people are brothers in every way besides their interpretation of Islam.
I thought that the groups were seperated because of their religion, but that the fighting is because one group lost power and the other gained power.
phattonez wrote:I thought that the groups were seperated because of their religion, but that the fighting is because one group lost power and the other gained power.
There wouldn't be "groups" gaining or losing power if the groups didn't exist. Those "groups" are there because of the religion.
Religion is an agent of division, and division creates conflict.
Because as everyone knows, every scientist is in perfect agreement over all of science, and there's no discord or dissension at all.
Amaster42 wrote:Because as everyone knows, every scientist is in perfect agreement over all of science, and there's no discord or dissension at all.
Unfortunately, you have a point, referencing Beldaran's post from the other week about death threats resulting from dissent on Global Warming.
The dissent and discord in science is what makes it great. It's the constant questioning, arguing, and experimenting... the doubting, which make it so powerful.
It's a different kind of disagreement than in religion, though. In science, disagreement can be settled with experiment, analysis, and mathematics. For example, all (real) scientists agree that force equals mass times acceleration, but some scientists disagree over the causes of global warming (inconclusive evidence, for some). In Religion, disagreement can either never be settled, or can only be settled wth violence because there is no way to prove your idiotic magic being is more correct than someone elses.
Beldaran wrote:The dissent and discord in science is what makes it great. It's the constant questioning, arguing, and experimenting... the doubting, which make it so powerful.It's a different kind of disagreement than in religion, though. In science, disagreement can be settled with experiment, analysis, and mathematics. For example, all (real) scientists agree that force equals mass times acceleration, but some scientists disagree over the causes of global warming (inconclusive evidence, for some). In Religion, disagreement can either never be settled, or can only be settled wth violence because there is no way to prove your idiotic magic being is more correct than someone elses.
But what about the chill guys like me who are just kind of like "OK man whatever yeah you think that Islam is the right way I think Christianity is the right way so I guess the real question is which one of us is going to get screwed over more if the Jews turn out to be right?"
Also I need to stop posting when I don't really have the time to commit to words the thoughts I actually have. Someone reply to this in the next 3 or 4 hours so I can post what I wanted to post I'm supposed to be packing my car right now (it is actually a pretty interesting (to me at least) analysis of how and where I apply religious beliefs and an attempt to further reinforce my stance that with the right mindset science and religion can reinforce each other and make it through the difficulties of growing up together. PG (language) Lifetime 8:00 PM)
So I guess we have Science Vs. Religion Vs. Science and Religion Vs. No Science and No Religion.
Very interesting thread.
Here's your reply Atma.
Actually I'm not quite ready to post it; I had a discussion about it today (I discuss my beliefs to help me decide if there are flaws in them or to see if I truly believe in them) and there's a few spots where my mind is going "Hey man do you really believe that or are you just saying it because it fits well with something you want to believe?"
It's going to take a little bit of reflection for me to stand behind it. Also I made this and earlier I stepped on a bee and the benadryl I took to avoid maybe dying from allergic reaction is kind of making me pretty tired.
I mean while I'd love concrete proof/disproof of my faith and coming back to haunt Beldaran and possibly be all "Ha ha you were wrong eat it jerk" seriously "death by bee sting due to inadvertently stepping on a bee while fetching his laptop from his car" isn't what I want on my obituary.