Science is based on theories. Theories are, by their very nature made up, or at least not concrete. There is no evidence of the Big Bang, but it's widely accepted.
(By the way, I've mentioned the big bang twice before, as have other people. I notice you still haven't even adressed it)
Beldaran wrote:No you are not allowed to judge science based on idiots who make things up, since that is the exact opposite of what science is.
However, feel free to judge religion based on idiots who make things up, because that is exactly what religion is.
phattonez wrote:Human nature remains constant no matter what people believe.
Do you believe arabs would be cutting people's heads off and blowing up buildings if they were atheists who believed in reason, progress, and loved knowledge?
Do you believe Isaac Newton would have still invented calculus if had been an atheist?
The answers to these questions say it all.
if they were atheists who believed in reason, progress, and loved knowledge?
Those two things don't automaticly go together. I know plenty of religious people who believe in progress and knowledge. I know plenty of ahteists who are amazingly stupid and backward(by backward I mena holding onto outdated bigoted opinions like racism, sexism, etc)
Amaster42 wrote:There is no evidence of the Big Bang, but it's widely accepted.
If by "no evidence" you mean "years of research and the support legendary physicists" then yes there is "no evidence".
I didn't realize you wanted to make a big deal out of the big bang. Anyway I responded to it above when I responded to Phattonez. There is a dearth of math and theoretical physics that points to the big bang. It isn't just some stupid thing someone made up. You know, like god.
You say grew up in church, so I'm intrest in your story, (If you don't mind me asking) Did you strugle with the idea of there being no god? Was it a hard pill to swallow at first? Was it a matter of you sitting though church as a child thinking it was a waste of time? It is hard to beleive you came to this point over night.
Science has tought me a lot about the universe, and increases my admiration of my God. I look at how large and complex a galaxy is and the tiny minute details of atoms that make it up. I see it as a work of art whose details we have yet to fully understand. Then there in the mind itself, what are the mysteries locked with in are own heads? I've given plenty of thought to evolution and the big bang theory, even from the context of there being no god, things make make alot sence and I have a lot of thoreys and questions in my head that are hard to put into words. But when I think about all those things with God back into the picture, it all seems even more special and wonderful.
Sure, but it doesn't explain where all the matter came from. Even if the big bang happened, you still have to prove the origins of life.
"Do you believe arabs would be cutting people's heads off and blowing up buildings if they were atheists who believed in reason, progress, and loved knowledge?" - It's not arabs that are terrorists, it's extremists who are terrorists. It's not just arabs who can become extremely devoted to a cause. But even if they were atheists, they would still be doing it.
"Do you believe Isaac Newton would have still invented calculus if had been an atheist?" - Newton did not "invent" calculus, but he still would have been a genius.
Beldaran wrote:If by "no evidence" you mean "years of research and the support legendary physicists" then yes there is "no evidence".Actually yeah there's quite a bit of evidence that makes the big bang the most likely theory but alsoI didn't realize you wanted to make a big deal out of the big bang. Anyway I responded to it above when I responded to Phattonez. There is a dearth of math and theoretical physics that points to the big bang. It isn't just some stupid thing someone made up. You know, like god.
Beldaran wrote:I'm done arguing this.
Just sayin
I got sucked in by arguments that were so patently false I just had to say something.
/me = obsessive compulsive disorder.
Amaster42 wrote:If believing that somehow, with the millions of possible permutations somehow some chemicals came together and formed somthing called DNA, and then, against the odds that DNA somehow generated a container around it, and little organelles inside it, and that those cells were somehow able to group together, and actually recognize each other and specialize, and that somehow all the complexity of the human body could come about by a strand consisting of the same four chemicals over and over again, and that somehow those cells could become concious of theselves, if that makes you look like a fool,It didn't start with DNA. Before that, there was RNA, and something else, probably simpler, self-replicating molecules, must have come before that (I'm pretty sure we don't know precisely what, though).
gdorf wrote:I understand Agnostics, but self-proclaimed Atheists amaze me. Having the balls to dismiss the notion of any deity existing seems absurd and arrogant. :shrug:Is it any more absurd than claiming that the origin and meaning of the universe are revealed in a millenia-old book of stories that don't fit with available evidence and often defy common sense? Is it any more arrogant than believing that God rewards people for thinking the same things as oneself and punishes them for disagreeing?
phattonez wrote:The reason behind ethnic cleansing is darwinism.
[...]
The Nazis were religious? They believed in science.
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (translation by James Murphy) wrote:Everybody who has the right kind of feeling for his country is solemnly bound, each within his own denomination, to see to it that he is not constantly talking about the Will of God merely from the lips but that in actual fact he fulfils the Will of God and does not allow God's handiwork to be debased. For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. Whoever destroys His work wages war against God's Creation and God's Will.
[...]
Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures [Aryans] would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise.
[...]
And, further, they [Aryans] ought to be brought to realize that it is their bounden duty to give to the Almighty Creator beings such as He himself made to His own image.
Starkist wrote:Look at it this way: In the "morality" of science Adolf Hitler was a great man for what he did. He washed away the undesirables of society and tried to use scientific research to improve the species.
Starkist wrote:It is from religion that comes the idea that all people are intrinsically valuable, not science.
phattonez wrote:What makes evolution and the big bang more likely than creation? Life out of nothing? I thought that sponatneous generation was diproved by Pasteur. So then how can science claim that it came out of nothing? It is nearly impossible.Abiogenesis is not the same as the classical concept of spontaneous generation, which refers to complex organisms appearing fully-formed.
Experiments have not created life 😊.
The concept that one class is better than another and will survive the other is one that is brought up in science. Quote Hitler all you want, it still doesn't say that Hitler did not get this idea from science.
Once again, I do not blame science or religion for any wars. The only thing that starts wars is human nature.
phattonez wrote:The concept that one class is better than another and will survive the other is one that is brought up in science. Quote Hitler all you want, it still doesn't say that Hitler did not get this idea from science.Or perhaps he got the idea from religions that support rigid class structures such as Hinduism? What about the several centuries of people perverting Judaism and Christianity to institute a system where the clergy carries more power than the governing body? Or since you put a survival factor into there, what about the several wars that have been fought on the belief that they were supported by a deity and the holy people would win?
Fact is, throughout history people like to believe they are better than other people and will use any excuse they can find to justify it. Those who are swayed by religion will make their wars holy wars; those who are swayed by logic will prove their superiority with logic; those who like to kill will do it for fun.
It is unclear exactly what inspired Hitler, and the only person who could answer that question with authority is dead.
Science has no intrinsic moral value. Religion has no intrinsic moral value. It is only within the context of specific circumstances that we can judge the morality of an act, and even then we judge it from our own viewpoint and not the viewpoint of another. Both can be perverted and used for purposes other than the good of man. We could go through history and attempt utilitarian analysis of the "good" and "bad" both science and religion have done for us, but I think in the end you would find that both science and religion have done immeasurable amounts of both good and bad.
^^^Which is why I said that I don't blame science or religion for any wars. Those are just excuses, and my arguments were hypothetical.
phattonez wrote: I don't blame religion for any wars.
Beldaran wrote:
That's not religion, that's stupidity. Thinking that only you are right and being unwilling to change or even consider change.
Dechipher wrote:That's not religion, that's stupidity.
a = b
Dechipher wrote:That's not religion
That is religion. They are extremely religious, they commit acts for religous purposes, and they are extremely vocal about the fact that religion drives their actions. To claim that is not religion is to deny facts. You are factually, historically, and otherwise completely incorrect in every sense of the word.
You think muslim terrorists are not acting because of their religion. That is the most illogical, borderline insane thing I have ever heard. I question your ability to think accurately.
Guys seriously could you stop and think about stuff for maybe 2 or 3 minutes before you post them you are just giving Beldaran really easy headshots and making yourself look like morons in the process. Religion has been the overt cause of several wars and religious conflict is still part of the world's problems today.
Yes the problem is fanatics but pretending like they aren't religious doesn't make them go away.
Also Beldaran I have this peace offering for you I found it on the interwebs while I was divining the future with Jesus goggles it is a message from a good friend who says you should know him
hahaha! 😊
Wow. When we find you and if you are still alive, you'll have to tell us what it is like to be alive and dead at the same time.
I would tell you, but if I observe the state of my life, I will change it.
Dechipher wrote:That's not religion, that's stupidity.
Totally right. That camo serves no purpose indoors.
MasterSwordUltima wrote:Totally right. That camo serves no purpose indoors.
Even if he was outside...
Sgt. Slaughter- Pvt. Pinkle what do you see?
Pvt. Pinkle- All I see are ten masks and a bomb.
Sgt. Slaughter- Shoot the bomb, that way it will look like the idiots set it off early, and we'll save 9 bullets.
Religion is the excuse for a war, just like science. If you say that religion has caused wars, then you also have to say science has caused wars. Basically, without either, wars would still occur. It's human nature, you cannot blame religion for starting wars.
I've always felt that the political reasons have always been the superficial justification for going to war, while it is the religious reasons that are true and heartfelt.
The religion makes people want to kill others, and the politics just make the actions look more reasonable and justified to a more level-headed person. People seem to feel less guilty if they are following the will of a modern legal document that says "so and so violated this, and can legally be punished." The law is there to trip up others so there will be "good reason" to start killing them in the name of [usually] Allah.
A commitment to rational analysis of observed data and the formation of appropriate hypotheses has never directly caused a war.
A belief that a group of people are making your god angry simply by existing has directly caused numerous wars.
I just need to poke my head in here and point out that most wars are fought over power and land. Religion has often been a convenient excuse and rallying cry.
^^^Finally someone finds the real issue. Greed, lust for power. That is the cause for war.
Religion is stupid but that doesn't mean that people are more stupid and worthless just because they follow one.
You can't blame anything other than humans for their actions.
Starkist wrote:I just need to poke my head in here and point out that most wars are fought over power and land. Religion has often been a convenient excuse and rallying cry.
This is almost a good point, but incorrect. Religion has not been used as an excuse. It has been used as a tool to control people. The reason you can can control religious people so easily is that in order to accept religion in the first place, you must shut off a part of your brain. With that firewall of reason gone, you can be taught to accept just about anything because your mechanism for parsing input has been scrambled by a virus, and that virus is religion.
Without religion, the power hungry leaders wouldn't have had the same ability to rally people to their banner.
You would never convince a hundred thousand invididualistic, rational scientists to go on a genocidal crusade without giving them a damn good reason to.
^^^I never knew that you could control religious people easily. Could you please try to control a Buddhist? I would really be amazed to see that.
I think Hitler rallied his people pretty well without religion.