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Wii Virtual Console

103 replies · 16,775 views · Started 02 November 2006

mattwdr wrote:They announced a few more games that will be coming to the VC before the year is out:

http://wii.ign.com/articles/744/744650p1.html

I am guessing you can use the wiimote for Wild Gunman and Duck Hunt?

What we really need though is Kirby's Dream Course...

And Hogan's Alley! I was really happy to see that because it confirms that Nintendo is mapping the Wiimote to work as the NES Zapper (and likely the Super Scope too I'm sure - I've honestly never had the chance to play Yoshi's Safari)

Let's think about adding netplay to a game for a while, all of you competent game programmers who are suggesting it's no problem to add it.

There's 2 ways I can see the VC being implemented: built-in emulator or do-it-yourself code. If DIY code is used, the company could opt to do a port or simply code an emulator and run the original code through that.

Built-in Emulation
This could be the toughest scenario for a developer to work with. In this scenario, the Wii loads a hardware emulator and then loads the game image and there you go. The problem with this is the developer can only work with what Nintendo gives them and has no freedom to add netplay to the game unless Nintendo provides it as part of their package.

DIY Emulation
This method forces the developer to create their own emulator and run the game image through the emulator. If the developer can make the emulator support netplay, the game may be able to have netplay implemented. I'm assuming what the X-Band modem did was transmit controller input over the modem, which was then sent to the cartridge, so the ROM didn't know it wasn't fooling with 2 controllers hooked to the same system. There's some synchronization of game issues I can see happening there but nothing is stopping the developer from letting the emulator handle that.

A nice bonus here is once the developer makes a solid emulator, they can use it for more than one ROM so the effort is only needed once.

Full Port
This gives the developer full freedom but requires the most effort. In this case the developer completely redoes the game and adds netplay as part of it. I honestly don't think many companies would go to this much effort unless they expected very high-volume sales out of it.

However, when you take all these things into account, not all games would be netplay friendly and people would still complain about the results. Split-screen games (such as Goldeneye) would still play split-screen, since all you are doing is sending controller input signals to the ROM. Reworking these games to support full-screen multiplay would involve some creativity to implement at the very least. Even worse, modern online multiply benefits from over a decade of refinement. Lag is almost always a problem, and most modern games account for lag in some way or another. These older games would either have to assume no lag exists or have code added to compensate for it, which increases development effort and decreases the profitability of the venture.

Writing games isn't easy; there's a reason why lately it takes years to develop a game. As the industry pushes itself to set the bar for production value higher and higher, it is also increasing the overhead for producing a game. I really don't think many companies are going to divert attention from their multi-million-dollar projects so they can make a quick $1-2 million off of making an online Goldeneye. I know it sounds tempting to you guys, but you have no idea how big a development project gets and I think most game developers are pretty much fully occupied as it is.

*edit* Oh and yeah Battletoads was definitely a rip-off of TMNT but I think the phrase "rip-off" isn't exactly appropriate because it has a bad connotation. Allow me to illustrate.

Voltron was an anime series about a giant shape-changing robot piloted by people. The same company procduced Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, a show about people piloting giant shape-changing robots. Both shows were successful, so MMPR is more like a derivative work of Voltron than a rip-off.

Tattooed Teenage Alien Fighters from Beverly Hills was a show about some people who controled giant beings that could transform into another being. This show was low-budget and not very popular. It is a rip-off.

So basically Battletoads isn't really a rip-off because they did a good job, IMO.

Yes, derivative is probably a better term :P

And I would think any online play would have to be a full port. Just running emulated games over a network - although it would work - would be too sucky to be worth it (except maybe in some cases, like multiplayer Super Mario Bros - but then, why the hell would you care about playing that online? :P)

Oh my god!
http://wii.ign.com/articles/744/744751p1.html

Some games bolded for awesomeness (OoT doesn't count b/c it was re-released twice in the last couple years)

  • Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Kirby's Super Star (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Mario Kart 64 (Nintendo 64; rated E for Everyone)
  • Starfox 64 (Nintendo 64; rated E for Everyone)
  • Super Metroid (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Kirby's Dream Land 3 (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time (Nintendo 64; rated E for Everyone)
  • Excitebike (NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Ice Climber (NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Dr. Mario (NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Mario Brothers (NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Ice Hockey (NES; rated E for Everyone)
  • Soccer (NES; rated E for Everyone)
w00t!!! Not quite sure why the already announced ones are bothered to be listed at the end there, but whatever. Awesome games comin! And I am so stoked for Mario RPG - I wonder if that means Square is onboard for the VC...

I think that Square had previously expressed positive feelings about VC, so SMRPG isn't too surprising. Not that it's not a great addition. I'm more excited about Kirby's Dream Land 3, as I never did get to play through that one (already own the ones you bolded).

Tygore wrote:I think that Square had previously expressed positive feelings about VC, so SMRPG isn't too surprising. Not that it's not a great addition. I'm more excited about Kirby's Dream Land 3, as I never did get to play through that one (already own the ones you bolded).

Kirby's Dreamland 3 sucked.. it was probably the worst Kirby game ever made (having not played Kirby 64 tho, so I dunno about that)

I loved KDL3... I very much look forward to being able to play that again. But of all of those, I'd have to say Mario Kart 64 and Duck Hunt are at the top of my list.

Mario Kart 64 was pretty much the best Mario Kart ever IMO. The DS one was great but nothing can match the amount of fun I had on the N64.

....Great. Just great, I guess I need to save $400 in the next 2 weeks. Go figure with only $160 on your hands...

Yeah, 8 player online Mario Kart 64, would if it existed, probably be the be all end all multiplayer experience for me.

Even though I now more fully understand how difficult it is to get these games online, I still think that the thing that will separate the VC between the realm of nostalgic and the realm of legendary will be the online play.

Breaker wrote:Kirby's Dream Course would be awesome.

Yeah, that was a great game. I only rented it, but I remember having a lot of fun with it.

AtmaWeapon wrote:Mario Kart 64 was pretty much the best Mario Kart ever IMO. The DS one was great but nothing can match the amount of fun I had on the N64.

I tried playing Mario Kart 64 after playing Mario Kart: DS, and I just can't. The controls in Mario Kart: DS are so refined that playing any previous Mario Kart, even Double Dash, just feels like a huge step backwards. Not to mention the camera in MK64 is terrible imo. Still, there are some great tracks in MK64.

Warlock wrote:Kirby's Dreamland 3 sucked.. it was probably the worst Kirby game ever made (having not played Kirby 64 tho, so I dunno about that)

AHHHH

What the hell is wrong with you?
IT"S BEAUTIFUL, and, although it's grossly easy, jesus... it's soooo pretty! It was a fun game, even though it was quick. I loved it.

punkonjunk1024 wrote:AHHHH

What the hell is wrong with you?
IT"S BEAUTIFUL, and, although it's grossly easy, jesus... it's soooo pretty! It was a fun game, even though it was quick. I loved it.

I hated it. And I found a lot of what you had to do to complete some levels completely ambiguous. Most of the animals were pointless too. And the graphics sucked compared to almost any other Kirby game (all pastels and washed-out looking)

Warlock wrote:I hated it. And I found a lot of what you had to do to complete some levels completely ambiguous. Most of the animals were pointless too. And the graphics sucked compared to almost any other Kirby game (all pastels and washed-out looking)

I thought the graphics were fantastic! And I'm not saying that just to be disagreeable... I loved the hand-drawn style they went with. It was a lot like (though albeit not as cool) as Yoshis Island.

Orion wrote:I thought the graphics were fantastic! And I'm not saying that just to be disagreeable... I loved the hand-drawn style they went with. It was a lot like (though albeit not as cool) as Yoshis Island.

Me too, it was a fresh look for the SNES and I thought they pulled it off well. Plus it utilized the SA-1 chip to get around the SNES's slow cpu problem. So does Kirby Super Star, which is good news then as Nintendo apparently isn't so helpless to not be able to emulate those in-cart chips.

By the way Warlock, Battletoads still isn't that difficult. You just sucked when you played it. ;p Give it another go when you are ontop of your gaming. It's an excellent game with lots of different levels and it is a challenge but not impossible. I certainly agreed with the Wiki that it wasn't forgiving but I strongly disagree that the general gamers back then were divided over it. Back then "casual gamers" didn't exist. Everyone was a fan or hardcore gamer really. The difference was if you sucked, you didn't like it. If you liked it, you actually used it to bring up your gaming skill.

Yesterday I was playing Gears of War, and many parts seemed similarly unforgiving, but as you play on again and again you get better.

A few points, it's possible to emulate a game like StarFox64 over the internet. "Lag" being expected is irrelevant because when emulating online you are communicating inputs and thus actually emulating the exact same thing so your games are in sync. The split screen in emulation could also be hooked on a per game basis so you only see your piece of the screen and not anyone elses. It's all possible, and could probably be done by 1 or 2 guys that know what they are doing and wouldn't cost much.

Wait. They're gonna do Kirby Super Star, too?

Man, that game is awesome. It kicks Dreamland 3 to the curb.
The "how to play" tutorial should be even funnier now on the Wii, because it shows the SNES controller and refers to it as "that gray thing with the purple buttons".

The graphics looked too washed-out. A comparison:

Kirby's Dreamland 3:
User posted image
User posted image

Kirby Super Star:
User posted image
User posted image

I just picked Super Star since it's also a SNES Kirby, but I could easily have picked any 16-bit version (any of the GBA versions for example). But look at how much more vibrant and colorful Super Star (or any other Kirby game) is.

But honestly, graphics wouldn't have kept me from enjoying the game if it was good. I just plain didn't like it.

As for Battletoads - as far as I'm concerned there is something that's normal difficulty (i.e. - the game is challenging) and then there is unforgiving difficulty (i.e. - you zigged when you should have zagged). The latter in my opinion is just poor design. And that's what Battletoads was. I doubt I would change my mind about the game by playing it again.

MottZilla wrote:A few points, it's possible to emulate a game like StarFox64 over the internet. "Lag" being expected is irrelevant because when emulating online you are communicating inputs and thus actually emulating the exact same thing so your games are in sync. The split screen in emulation could also be hooked on a per game basis so you only see your piece of the screen and not anyone elses. It's all possible, and could probably be done by 1 or 2 guys that know what they are doing and wouldn't cost much.
The synchronization of the individual clients would be much more complicated than that. I'm going to ignore ping time or lag as a factor and go for the less obvious problem.

Suppose you have this emulated input scheme and you're happily playing against some friends online. Everyone's game is in sync and entities are at the appropriate position. You hold the analog stick left for 5 seconds, but some network problem eliminates a full second's worth of your input from being transmitted across the network. Now, your copy of the game saw 5 seconds worth of turn while everyone else's saw 4 seconds worth of turn. This places your ship in two different positions. Over time, these deviations result in everyone's position on each instance of the game being completely inaccurate compared to what the player witnesses.

Games with a server/client architecture handle this by letting the server provide position data and periodically synchronizing the two. Implementing this kind of structure for Wii VC could probably be done by having the server responsible for running the game image and forcing Wii clients to yield to its data, but I'd think such an implementation would be significant enough Nintendo would have made an announcement (not to mention it would require a large amount of resources on Nintendo's side).

Since the games in question weren't designed to take advantage of a client/server architecture, it seems at first glance online play would be buggy at best. However, the SNES modem (X-BAND?) and the fact that emulators support online play would indicate that it is not impossible. The emulator or modem would be capable of transmitting ROM state information to all connected games, and with a little bit of programming could single out the information from each client unique to that player and force each client to respect the correct information. Occasionally you'd see "warping" as a player position is updated, but this is a problem exhibited in most online games and the current solutions tend to attempt to predict player behavior when no input is received which results in pretty much the same problem in the end.

A third alternative may be to wait until all participants report their input status, then update every game with that information, but this would probably introduce lag to a degree that would be unacceptable.

If Nintendo has put the emulator in the BIOS, the ability to play classic games online depends completely on their implementation of the Virtual Console. Any implementations of client/server or synchronization support would have to be coded in for it to work. If Nintendo is allowing developers to provide their own software, the ability to play classic games online depends solely on whether the VC software runs in a sandbox with limited access to system resources or is treated as a full-fledged Wii application.

tl;dr: it is impossible to tell how well netplay of classic games can be supported given the current information.

Those screenshots just prove the point that KDL3 loos better than KSS. KSS's graphics aren't bad, but they look a lot more generic.

Atma, I'm aware of lag issues, and games like Street Fighter 2 on XBL use a delayed input sync. However some emulators like ZSNES, use prediction and then will correct it should it lose packets or something. Both methods are alright depending on the game as long as your connection doesn't suck.

I do agree though I'm not getting my hopes up that they will add netplay.

Cloral wrote:Those screenshots just prove the point that KDL3 loos better than KSS. KSS's graphics aren't bad, but they look a lot more generic.

I actually agree with Warlock about the graphics. They are a bit washed up. KSS's graphics were easier to like.

Kriby is kirby though. I've never played KDL3.

You guys are arguing over the graphics of Kirby games?! Heh
Its two different graphical styles. You either like or you don't. :thumbsup:

MottZilla wrote:Atma, I'm aware of lag issues, and games like Street Fighter 2 on XBL use a delayed input sync. However some emulators like ZSNES, use prediction and then will correct it should it lose packets or something. Both methods are alright depending on the game as long as your connection doesn't suck.

I do agree though I'm not getting my hopes up that they will add netplay.

Yeah but my point is really in both of those situations the developer had full control of the software and was able to incorporate measures to account for netplay complications. Whether this can be done on the Wii depends on how much freedom a VC developer has with the system.

AtmaWeapon wrote:Yeah but my point is really in both of those situations the developer had full control of the software and was able to incorporate measures to account for netplay complications. Whether this can be done on the Wii depends on how much freedom a VC developer has with the system.

Speaking strictly of VC-only games, I'm pretty sure IGN has asked and yes, those can have online play. That's Wii hardware afterall.

I do wonder if games originally designed for the SNES modem (which I forgot existed) would work well with netplay tho. That would be interesting, even though there aren't that many 😉 (but wasn't Super Bomberman designed for it? Or was it *only* multitap - which I do know it was designed for)