Bush Vetos Stem Cell Research Bill

Rainman wrote:This is, no offense, one of the things I don't like about religious thought. The belief in an overriding plan and purpose to things makes people accept things for the way they are or assume they deserve bad things because they are bad. As an atheist, I believe this life is all we've got so I intend to make the best out of things while I'm here.

Well hey, with their logic, when we abort babies, that's what god's plan was. You know why? Because if it wasn't god's plan, you couldn't do it. Anything to the contrary is bullshit, because god is god. God gets to do whatever his magical plan is. So when they bitch, it shows that it's not in line with THEIR plan, not god.

I'm no atheist, I'm just not a fucking chump. When god comes and sits down with me and tells me the deal, I'll listen. I won't however listen to another human being spout shit about god. We are all humans here and need to act like it. There are no gods here. Man rules the earth and is in charge of its own destiny. We can sit on our asses and die, kill eachother till the end of time, or we can do something to better everyone's lives.

And Daark brings up a huge point. While fucktards in washington hold us back, other nations with no moral bullshit are making progress leaving us in the dust, making us inferior and less in charge of our own world. People that stop our progress while our competition moves onward are going to royally fuck us over. Again, Bush should be hanged along with many others for crimes against the US. It should be done live on TV world wide to show the world what a piece of shit these people are, and that we aren't afriad to kill them or anyone else. The USA needs it's balls and leadership back.

Thru all of this discussion that's been going on... I've not seen the option that is honestly the most used for stem cell research. And that is unused fertilized eggs from fertility doctor offices or places that store these fertilized eggs. Not all fertilized eggs that couples create for a possible pregnancy are ever used.

And I’ve heard that there are millions and millions and millions of these fertilized eggs just taking up space. They could be used for stem cell research. They could be used to help find a cure for diabetes (something I have). They could be used to help find a cure for cancer, MS and a lot more other problems that we, as humans, face in our life time.

Heck, I’d be willing to give what eggs I have to stem cell researchers if they could use them to help find cures for our human frailty. I’d do it in a heartbeat!

Lilith wrote:Unless you're raped, too young to understand the consequences of sex, had your primary method of birth control fail (as in 50% of cases), couldn't get access to birth control, or you're stuck with a pregnancy you can't physically, financially or mentally take care of. And this doesn't depend on something like marriage or chastity. The "lol don't spread your legs then" stance is pretty offensive imo. Just sayin'

That's why I said if it's an attack (rape) or if she's gonna die from it then it's probably okay.

Okay, IRL I have never met anyone who thinks like some of you guys, and that's why I enjoy these debates and adding my side to the table. I mean no offense, and I post what I have to say with the thought that no one's better than anyone else, and it's ultimately between them and God what they do. I thought about starting my first post with that but I feel like I've said that over and over again and it might be redundant.

I believe in what I said, but maybe part of it was a little too harsh and self-rightious, (what I said about unwanted babies and how not to have them) While that's the ideal way, I know it's impossible, and I'm sorry.

While I stand by everything else I said, I have to admit it's completely up to the woman and between her and God in the end, just like every other sin on earth. And with that said, bombing abortion clinics is wrong, I don't believe in that, it's not Christian.

And again, if they were gonna use already dead fetuses that they themselves don't kill, then that might be all right.

I don't know how we got talking about abortion, but the issue at hand is stem cell research and they are NOT one in the same.

My views:
Pro-Life.
Pro-Stem cell research.

Bush needs to take a biology class. There is no good reason (moral or otherwise) not to promote stem cell research.

Yes there is!!!!11
Once the eggy hits the spermy, a SOUL is formed! A god loved soul! YOU MURDERERS!

Mott brings up a good point though. And uh, don't unborn babies go to heaven, anyhow? You're just saving them the trouble if sinning and possibly falling short of the glory of our lord jesus H christ.

Religious people are hyporcites. When you point it out, you lose, because "you don't know god."

I got in an arguement with my pastor last sunday, and he said I must have renounced faith, because such a debate would be reserved only for "athiest slime"
And then he walked away.
[SIZE="1"](edit: for the record, I was a born again christian for about 2 years, when I was thirteen. I grew out of it after spending time to read the bible cover-to-cover, but I still attend church often... simply because it makes debating it with the religious alot easier. I believe there could be a god. Just not a racist homophobic patracentric retard.)[/SIZE]

and I agree with masa. It pisses people off... but just as badly as some of this pissed some of us off. Yet the directly offensive nature of his comment is much worse than the conceptual offensiveness that this topic is even a discussion? They're not really alive.
God damnit, we step on ANTS with more mental capacity every day without knowing it.
All of this is asinine. I'm gonna go masturbate to pictures of aborted fetuses.
or.. Feti?

punkonjunk1024 wrote:Mott brings up a good point though. And uh, don't unborn babies go to heaven, anyhow? You're just saving them the trouble if sinning and possibly falling short of the glory of our lord jesus H christ.

Not if you follow Catholic beliefs.

Baptisim is supposed to be for the original sin. Catholics believe that if a baby dies before it is baptized it will go to limbo no matter how pure the child is. Once the child is baptized, it could enter heaven if it dies.

I posted this here a while back.

Lets also note that the catholics removed books from the bible for various reasons, including removal of jesus's implied marriage/sex life, and a few things that might make woman like they were worth more than shit. I'm pretty sure catholics are insane, even by christian standards.

EDIT
I went to go get some food from my dads house.
He was watching some crazy show for kids about catholocism, instructing them to choose a patron saint and pray to them in heaven.
Uh yeah.

Oh I know. I am not Catholic. I was actually, but enough is enough sometimes. Haha.

EDIT: I should be more specific. My family is Christian. We did attend a Catholic church, but a lot of the doctorine really gets in the way of the true teachings of Christianity, so now we attend a non-denominational Christian church. Some of the conservative beliefs are still there, but it's not as bad.

I am thankful I live in Canada. While I don't support abortion except in cases of life and death(even a child fomed out of rape can grow up to be a good person), or incest, I have to admit that stem cell research could help make the world a better place.

If stem cells could be taken from another source, that would be good. I think one issue is that if stem cell research gets funding, will that encourage people to have more abortions in an attempt to feel justified about it? Perhaps not, but on the other hand, humans donate organs to others, and sometimes babies who are born without vital signs are still able to give some of their organs to save another life. Is this any different?

The big problem does come because as a society, we generally love babies. They are innocent, perfect, cute, and all that. What I think happens is that when one talks of stem cells, a mental image comes into their head about an evil abortionist and a slutty teen somehow murderously yanking the fetus out of the body with as much disrespect for childbirth as one could get. Of course that image is not correct, but the mental picture is still there. Getting over these pictures is a hard thing to do.

Anyway, there is also the issue about playing God. Do men have the right to tinker with the body this way? Well if you were to look back, I bet a lot of the life saving things we have were met either with hostility, or was touted as a miracle. Imagine if this mendical practice of stem cell usage took off? It would cause a moral explosion within people. Kill a baby and grandpa can live? Is that right? What do people do when faced with two choices that are equal in their benefits as they are in their downsides? As for disabilites, as many of you know, I have many friends who are intellectually challenged, one of whom is my girlfriend, who was brain damaged at birth. I will tell you that one of the sadest things that comes to me is when I see people with brain damage exibit signs of gifts and talents that could have been there if nothing happened to them. My girlfriend, for example, has a great memory for dates, times, and numeric stuff. She could have gone to school and follow in her father's footsteps and become an engineer or somthing. Instead, she stays home most of the time because she can't go out alone by herself. She doesn't know how to take the bus, she calls people chicken all the time, and she can't read past a grade 2 level. While a disability does sometimes make us stronger through our trials, imagine if the person is not able to get anything out of it? My girlfriend was not raised Christian, but rather is a-religious. She doesn't understand, and therefore, does not care about God, Jesus, sins, and all that stuff. In short, according to Christian doctrine, she gets a free pass into heaven.

But what could stem cells do to help her? If the damaged portions of her brain were somehow able to be re-grown, and she learned to use them, would she still be able to cope with life? Sometimes you spend your entire life learning to cope with a disability that it becomes a big part of your life, and a part of your identity. Sure a retarded person is retarded, but at least he's got an identity in the world. If you took that away, especially later in life, what would he have? He'd be worse off because he's still at the same level he was when his brain didn't work well. It's like learning to walk after your leg muscles have degenerated. Some disabiltiies, like Cystic Fibrosis and Muscular Dystrophy on the other hand, that stuff should certainly have some help. I can't see any adverse reactions to suddenly not have fluid in your lungs and never needing to have it pumped out every so often.

Wht if the government had a cash for eggs deal going? I am sure many women who never plan to have kids could donate them to science and it would avoid the who issue of abortion. Like Prkitty said, they are just lying arround, and they get wasted. Perhaps the money could help single mothers through a tough time. Of course it would also act as a slight population control, but then again, maybe it could be God's way of weeding out the "defectives"(women who don't want kids). Of course even if God's Will was revealed to us, we humans are so bloody behind we would just mis-interpret it as an other excuse to whine about crap again.

Here's another thought. If humans were designed by God and we were given the intelligence to figure out how to use stem cells to help cure diseases and other problems, then how do we know that it's truly not of God's design? This one has always been in the back of my head and no one has been able to do a decent job answering it.

Jiggly, first off, I like many, don't think babies are cute or innocent. A fetus is very similar to a parasite really, unless you intended to have a child. I for one, don't view babies as innocent, perfect, or cute. I see them as what they are. Useless infants that are a dime a dozen. The fact is, your baby dies, fuck someone again, poof you've got another one on the way. Wow that was so difficult and special.

Issue of playing god? Or do you mean the issue of being retarded do nothing people. We have the oppurtunity to seize technology to better our existance. Playing god is a retarded phrase too. No one can play god, unless you are a god. Deciding who lives your dies is already done EVERYDAY, by our government. Don't act like this is new.

About retarded or disabled people that may have defined themselves by it, if you could fix it, YOU WOULD. No one in their right mind would stay fucked up for the purpose of keeping some kind of identify revolving around being fucked up. And even if they did, they have the choice wether or not totake treatment.

Anyways, this God's will crap is bullshit, or atleast meaningless. We are humans, we do whatever we want. Believe me, if god comes out of the fucking sky and tells us to do something, we'll probably do it. But until that, by believing is some totally unconfirmable divine being having the will for anything or whatever is retarded. You shouldn't restrain yourself for fear/honor of some fucking casper you've never seen.

Anyways, I guess it's "my opinion" but, the fact is so much useful genetic material is wasted. Even people that want kids don't use all the materials that come about in a life time. Not to mention that donating such would be VOLUNTARY. But all because of this the government won't fund it? Retarded. Besides, they waste our money on plenty of other things and plenty of things that could be considered immoral.

Here's another thought. If humans were designed by God and we were given the intelligence to figure out how to use stem cells to help cure diseases and other problems, then how do we know that it's truly not of God's design? This one has always been in the back of my head and no one has been able to do a decent job answering it.

Ya this goes to what I said about this god's will bullshit. The fact is, if something was divine and all powerful, you DON'T have the capability to go against it. Thus, the agruement is bullshit. If god didn't want us to abort babies, or use stem cells from embryos, watch cable tv, etc. Well then we WOULDN'T. God is divine and all powerful, aren't you actually insulting God by even suggesting that we could stand against him/her/it?

mott wrote:Ya this goes to what I said about this god's will bullshit. The fact is, if something was divine and all powerful, you DON'T have the capability to go against it. Thus, the agruement is bullshit. If god didn't want us to abort babies, or use stem cells from embryos, watch cable tv, etc. Well then we WOULDN'T. God is divine and all powerful, aren't you actually insulting God by even suggesting that we could stand against him/her/it?

God is basically their little tool to work around any possible logical arguement, but he is not ours to manipulate, unless we're on their side.

That's what i've learned.

punkonjunk1024 wrote:Know what christians say when I offer this arguement?
"It's his plan to allow us divinely inspired humans to thwart that evil, to provide as an example against the evil aspiring democrats" ect ect ect

God is basically their little tool to work around any possible logical arguement, but he is not ours to manipulate, unless we're on their side.

That's what i've learned.

I think there are a lot of cases where you are right. There are some very crazy people who do this too. And when they aren't careful they start to forget the difference between what is right and wrong and they start to do some radical things.

The most recent group I can think of being that small church that goes to solders funerals and blames homosexuals for the war in Iraq. This is what happens when you lose sight of what God's direction is and you use God to justify all of your actions, right or wrong.

Jigglysaint wrote:I am thankful I live in Canada.

Okay, back on topic. Having read H.R. 810, it seems quite clear that the president was simply making a political maneuver, drawing a line in the sand, as only the obtuse and uninformed would actually take issue with this bill for any of the reasons stated. Of course it's possible that it may provide avenues to future loopholes, allowing all manner of medical abomination, but I highly doubt it. The text of the bill specifies that:

(1) The stem cells were derived from human embryos that have been donated from in vitro fertilization clinics, were created for the purposes of fertility treatment, and were in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment.

(2) Prior to the consideration of embryo donation and through consultation with the individuals seeking fertility treatment, it was determined that the embryos would never be implanted in a woman and would otherwise be discarded.

(3) The individuals seeking fertility treatment donated the embryos with written informed consent and without receiving any financial or other inducements to make the donation.

...!

Now, stepping aside from H.R. 810, stem cell research can continue without embryos, but it's more difficult. I think the real problem with medical research is a lack of hard science being done in Biology. For decades, skiddish members of congress, fearing an apocalyptic outbreak of genetically engineered super diseases has routinely cut funding to Molecular Biology and related fields. As a result, our ability to develop work-arounds in quandaries such as these has been stifled. Politicians are rarely qualified to make decisions regarding science, and this is simply another painful example.

In my opinion, Christianity was a good idea, until people decided to take it all literally.

Not to be insulting or anything, but seriously, if people would quit worrying about the details, and focus on the message, the world would be a better place. As I recall, the message of Christ was a message of love. It doesn't matter what's a sin, or whether or not the events of the Bible took place, or whether Jesus is even a real person... The message remains the same.