Illegal Immigrants

Beldaran wrote:Precisely. The reason I dislike illegal immigrants is not because they are [insert race]. It's because they move here, don't learn the language, fark up the economy......

Hooooooooooold the phone here. How do illegal immigrants "fark up the economy"?

granite wrote:I am a stone mason, and naturally they gravitated towards my kind of work.
Now all the contractors hire them , and teach them the trade.
And now the contractors are complaining that they cant make money anymore.
It's because the Hispanics became skilled labor, and now there are crews of them, working under the table, doing the same thing I do, and they work for less money than i will.
So they have driven the price of masonry way down, and now it's hard to compete with them.
They have been taking work that I used to get.

This is what I think you guys are talking about.

Sorry man, but quite simply, if business are having to pay 'under the table' less then what they pay you, then your job wasn't worth what you were being paid in the first place.

There is an equilibrium wage that a company values your work at. It's not a range, it's a wage which is based upon what your work is worth and how much employing you is costing the company. It does not make sense for the company to overpay you, why overpay you when your not worth that much to the company. But here's the crux, why would the company underpay you? It's not in their best interest to do so, because they know that if you are being underpaid, then all a rival has to do is offer a job with pay that is what you're worth, you would quit your origional job, and your origional employer would be left with fewer and/or workers who are worth the less amount of money they are paying, thus delivering a product that is inferior, and being stuck with labor that is worth this...lesser...amount.

Unions are TERRIBLE because of this. What a union will do is force a contract with businesses that demands pay that is higher than what the business was previously paying them, equilibrium wage. Therefore, each worker's worth is worth LESS than the amount that it costs for the company to employ them, so they end up cutting jobs. Or, in the case of "no layoffs", are simply run out of business by overseas competition who don't have such silly restrictions. The minimum wage is almost as bad, but face it, when was the last time you held a job when you were paid minimum wage and nothing more. Hell, even flipping burgers is around 7 bucks an hour where I live.

Basic economics.

It does not make sense for the company to overpay you, why overpay you when your not worth that much to the company. But here's the crux, why would the company underpay you? It's not in their best interest to do so, because they know that if you are being underpaid, then all a rival has to do is offer a job with pay that is what you're worth, you would quit your origional job, and your origional employer would be left with fewer and/or workers who are worth the less amount of money they are paying, thus delivering a product that is inferior, and being stuck with labor that is worth this...lesser...amount.

The minimum wage is almost as bad, but face it, when was the last time you held a job when you were paid minimum wage and nothing more. Hell, even flipping burgers is around 7 bucks an hour where I live.

I say boot 'em out.

You know what would have been funny? If all the illegals that were protesting were arrested and deported at that time.

AlexMax wrote:Hooooooooooold the phone here. How do illegal immigrants "fark up the economy"?

This is what I think you guys are talking about.

Sorry man, but quite simply, if business are having to pay 'under the table' less then what they pay you, then your job wasn't worth what you were being paid in the first place.

There is an equilibrium wage that a company values your work at. It's not a range, it's a wage which is based upon what your work is worth and how much employing you is costing the company. It does not make sense for the company to overpay you, why overpay you when your not worth that much to the company. But here's the crux, why would the company underpay you? It's not in their best interest to do so, because they know that if you are being underpaid, then all a rival has to do is offer a job with pay that is what you're worth, you would quit your origional job, and your origional employer would be left with fewer and/or workers who are worth the less amount of money they are paying, thus delivering a product that is inferior, and being stuck with labor that is worth this...lesser...amount.

Unions are TERRIBLE because of this. What a union will do is force a contract with businesses that demands pay that is higher than what the business was previously paying them, equilibrium wage. Therefore, each worker's worth is worth LESS than the amount that it costs for the company to employ them, so they end up cutting jobs. Or, in the case of "no layoffs", are simply run out of business by overseas competition who don't have such silly restrictions. The minimum wage is almost as bad, but face it, when was the last time you held a job when you were paid minimum wage and nothing more. Hell, even flipping burgers is around 7 bucks an hour where I live.

Basic economics.

Actually, what I meant was that there are crews of mexican masons that are operating as if they are contractors, they bid jobs without a contractors license.

The rich people that hire them love it, because they save money.
Also, I have a stone supply company that used to do quite well, until the mexicans found out. Now I am competing with some of them, they lowered their prices, and took over.
For example, 2yrs ago I was selling granite for $375./per ton
Now the price is around $250.-$275./ per ton.
But the cost of getting the rock has risen substantially (fuel prices) etc..

I know what your thinking, I should just turn them in, but its not that simple, If I do that I will make enemies with the mexicans, and the people that hire them.

People here tend to look the other way.
And they dont like people like me causing trouble.

This shouldn't even be a fucking debate.

Illegal Immigrants ARE ILLEGAL. Deport their asses back to where they fucking came from.

On a side note, lets go ahead and deport all mexicans, legal and illegal ones.

The Cyborg wrote:I say boot 'em out.

You know what would have been funny? If all the illegals that were protesting were arrested and deported at that time.

That would have been funny if you like mass rioting, injury and death, police brutality, damaged property, civilian chaos and a curfew.

ie, we're not riding ourselves of the current population anytime soon. that's what the protests were about...to demonstrate how much power it would take to get their force out of the country. The only thing we can do is restrict access to those coming in.

Although the people we restrict can be pretty ridiculous, which is probably why there are so many illegals. Lately we've restricted hundreds of professors and scholars as well as entertainment groups. Pretty ghey.

illegal immigrants are wrong and should be deported because they broke the law and came here illegally? simple.

so everyone who jaywalks across the street to hug their mom should is wrong because they broke the law.

..ok bad analogy, but the point is, this issue is not as simple as black and white. its full of gray. am i making any sense?

I say we just take over Mexico. They want to be here anyways, right? Well, make it America, force them to live under our laws and pay our taxes. Hell, we'd have a whole bunch of people who are HAPPY to work for minimum wage, because it's more than they've ever been offered. The energy expenditure would be less than trying to 'fix the problem'.
The illegal immigrants are not going to stop finding ways in here. So instead of spending more and more money on trying to stop something that can't be stopped, let's find a way to profit off of these people.

I'm for using our military to build , and defend, a wall , that extends along the entire border.. Make it boot camp, use it for training as well.

Well you could just use the military to deport their asses. People may have the balls to stand up against the police, but few will try to take on entire armored divisions that will kill them if they attack them. But they're all busy defending Iraq right now so I guess it'll have to wait. ;p

AlexMax, Unions aren't all bad. They protect their workers from big companies that could just fire you because they felt like it, and you couldn't do anything (unless maybe if you're any race but white, or a female). And you know you get what you pay for when you use non-union labor. You get people who don't know what the fuck they are doing, and shit goes wrong.

im reminded of the south park episode where immigrants from the future come back in time..

all the whining workers complaining that 'they took our jobs'

solution a) jump in a big gay sex orgy pile so that there wouldnt be a future so people wouldnt come back in time.

or

solution b) make it a better world now so in the future there would be no need to came back in time.

i keep hearing SOLUTION A from you guys..

Mottzilla wrote:AlexMax, Unions aren't all bad. They protect their workers from big companies that could just fire you because they felt like it, and you couldn't do anything (unless maybe if you're any race but white, or a female). And you know you get what you pay for when you use non-union labor. You get people who don't know what the fuck they are doing, and shit goes wrong.

On your first point, so what? You work at their company, you play by their rules, if you don't like it, quit.

And it's insulting to think that you think that there is no difference in quality between Union Labor workers versus non-Union Labor workers. If anything, the labor union workers are not as hard working in comparison to what they're being paid, since the company deems their job worth X amount, and the labor workers want more.

Also, lots of people in this thread showed some awesome examples of xenophobic faggotry. Ever wonder why Mexicans don't like you? Because of your shitty and condescending attitude towards them. And...maybe because of their xenophobic attitude towards, us, but don't act like it gives you an excuse to act like a faggot.

Uh, I was saying there IS a difference, a huge difference. Union better than Non-Union.

It's not all about "working hard" you know. It's about getting the job done and done right. Good Unions (not all are) have trained their workers, and they do the best job you're gonna get. Scabs (non-union) work for less but you get what you pay for because they are not near as trained plus there really is no telling what they'll do cause they are just some hoosher that could have started yesterday. I've heard so many stories of idiots from cable companies doing things which end in the house burning down or someone getting fried.

You know you shouldn't be all, omg, the company, the company, the company. Fuck the company. When you say the company, you mean rich do-nothings at the top. What about us normal people that have to work for a living?

I don't like Mexicans that A. Act mexican, and B. actually crossed the border from mexico illegally. I couldn't care less if they actually belong here. And really the ones that are here can stay so long as they get their fucking papers, pay taxes, learn ENGLISH, etc.

And we're americans AlexMax, that alone entitles us to act however we want.

I don't like Mexicans that A. Act mexican, and B. actually crossed the border from mexico illegally. I couldn't care less if they actually belong here. And really the ones that are here can stay so long as they get their fucking papers, pay taxes, learn ENGLISH, etc.

Act Mexican? So you are telling me that that you can't act your own race? I am Mexican and I got really really offended on what you said. Hopefully that just came out wrong. Because I am going to keep acting Mexican.

I live not even a mile from the border. Most of my friends and some of my family were illegal immigrants. Most of them came here because in USA you can have a better life for their familys. And yes, I agree they need to learn English, pay taxes, etc. However, sometimes they are too poor to do so. I wish there was an easier way, but I don't know.

On a side note, lets go ahead and deport all mexicans, legal and illegal ones.

That was so racist. I am not even going to say anything because I think I would be banned.

Shoelace, I'm talking "act mexican" as in mexican citizen. I don't mean that mexican as a race/people are any less than anything else. I'm just saying that when people from mexico come here they need to get with the program, like learning english and obeying our laws.

I agree wiith you about the deporting all mexicans, it's just stupid. Deporting people whom are here illegally would be good. However in some cases with cooperation and effort on the illegal person, they should be allowed to stay. Efforts such as speaking fluent english, obeying the laws, paying their taxes.

Quote:I'm Italian, and my family was the "mexicans" of their generation when they immigrated, but they were assimilated because they WANTED to learn how to be American, and BE American. We assimilated culturally and became a part of society. When you're dealing with a minority immigrant that is seperatist this usually isn't the case. Especially in a culture that is tripping over itself to be PC and give special treatment. If you give a group like that special/different treatment for a long time, it hinders them assimilating into normal society in many cases.
End Quote;

I totally agree with this, The mexican immigrants are seperatist.

Many of them have mexican flags etc.. on their cars, which is fine really, but I never see the the US flag on their car.

They dont want to be Americans, they want to bring Mexico here.

I couldn't imaging myself going to a forign country, and treating the citizens there with the disrespect i have felt from many of the mexican immigrants.

One time my wife and kids went to a ski resort, They went back to our pickup to eat lunch in the parking lot. Next to our truck was a mexican family also eating lunch.
Anyway my family finished lunch first, and left to ski some more, at the end of the day my wife was really pissed off to find they put their fucking garbage into the back of our truck!!
I'm getting pissed just thinking about it.

I'm not saying all mexicans do this shit
But how many times do I have to be disrespected by them, before I start to feel the prejudgism for them?

I have been working alongside mexicans for 20 yrs.
I can't tell you how many times they brag about how easy it is for them to get forged papers, using some innocent Americans social security number.
They think it's a big fuckin joke

And almost every mexican man i talk to brags about having a wife and kids in Mexico, and also having women here, at the same time, and many of them even have 2 sets of kids, 1 set living in each country.
Ya I've talked to many that brag this way
I get pissed, I tell them they are assholes.
I know alot of what I'm saying is racist,
but how much of this shit does a man have to take before he is fed up?

On the flipside of the coin, I do have friends that are Mexican Immigrants, many of them are really nice people.
2 of them saved my life when the scaffolding I was under started to collapse, I couldnt get out because my pantleg was caught on a piece of rebar.
The scaffold was 5 jacks high, loaded with 3-4 tons of rock
Those guy's caught the scaffold and pushed it back up so someone could put a brace on it.

I guess I'm mostly angry because there are so many comming, way too many, and everyday I see new ones here.
They just dont stop comming.

Hell, Ive had mexicans tell me they wish the mexicans would stop comming here, even they think there are too many here, because they end up competing for jobs too.

Step 1: Import Iraqis, and have them line the border with IEDs

Step 2: Conduct raids to deport one million illegals (as a start)

Step 3: Enforce existing labor laws

Step 4: Impose tremendous taxes and tarriffs on WalMart

Step 5: Kill all sitting members of Congress

mikeron wrote:
Step 5: Kill all sitting members of Congress

agreed on that one.

Our government needs to be overthrown,
taken back by the people, to be used for the people.
To get rid of government waste
and special interest.

Personally, I am a fan of Ross Perot
he is THE MAN

this all stems from peoples xenophobia.

F***in' eh...

I swear to God, I agree with copsgotguns on this one. Being from McAllen, f***in' Texas, population 90% f***in' Mexican, I can honestly say that I don't give an f***in' s**t about illegal immigrants, other than the fact that they get completely f***ed over as a result of the fact that they aren't legal citizens. I seriously wish they would become legal, simply because they don't deserve the s**t they get for the effort they put into making a new life for themselves. Oh God, wait, no, because that's just going to incur the wrath of those who say they don't put nearly enough effort into it. Why don't you try to adopt an entirely new f***in' culture/language and seeing how easy it is, before you go around blaming other people for their lack of effort... Honestly....

The one thing that really pisses me off about this thread, is the comment that its Mexico's responsibility, not ours. Like, yeah, I agree, I wish Mexico were better, too, but that ain't gonna happen, so what the f*** are we gonna do in the meantime? Pass the blame? That doesn't change the fact that there are real people out there with real f***in' problems, and saying that it's not our responsibility doesn't change that. Oh, wait, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, so my opinion doesn't count, right? We all deal with the same guilt, though, we just do it in different ways. Woop de doo, so I choose to actually take some sort of responsibility for it, as opposed to saying that I have nothing to do with the situation... That makes me a horrible person, right?

copsgotguns wrote:this all stems from peoples xenophobia.

mikeron wrote:Xenophobia? Illegals come here illegally, don't pay taxes, use up public resources (which are funded by tax dollars), and do jobs for wages and livings standards below those dictated by law (i.e. they undercut existing labor). But, yeah, the real issue is racism. 🙄

It is not racism
I dont automatically hate mexicans just because they are mexican.

It's about protecting my home, my job, and my kids, from this invasion of a group of people that do not want to be Americans.
They want to be mexicans, they are here to take without asking
And send all their spoils back to mexico.

I am thoroughly surprised nobody posted the link to Maddox yet...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

Also worth checking is the U.S. Libertarian Party's page on the issue if you're into that kind of thing.

Ich wrote:Also worth checking is the U.S. Libertarian Party's page on the issue if you're into that kind of thing.

However, they also say that they oppose all forms of welfare, which is why I briefly considered joining the Libertarian Party in 2000.

The real problem here is that for the sake of a short-term political victory, Washington is considering amnesty by itself. I can't see how this is justifiable.

It could be that living in San Diego gives me a different idea of priorities.

in case you didnt know farms, construction, meat industry all rely heavily on cheap labor which in majority is provided by illegal immigrants. so MAYBE your taxes would be lower if there were less illegal immigrants "using up YOUR public resources"

...BUT people doing the jobs the illegal immigrants were doing would probably have to have better wages, benefits, etc. .so things would be MORE expensive for us in my opinion.

EDIT: so it may not cost us too much money if we had to pay people in agriculture more for taking over illegal immigrants jobs BUT i forgot to mention; how much do time and money do you think would have to spent to search, seize and deport 11,000,000 illegal immigrants??

copsgotguns wrote:in case you didnt know farms, construction, meat industry all rely heavily on cheap labor which in majority is provided by illegal immigrants. so MAYBE your taxes would be lower if there were less illegal immigrants "using up YOUR public resources"

...BUT people doing the jobs the illegal immigrants were doing would probably have to have better wages, benefits, etc. .so things would be MORE expensive for us in my opinion.

Let's use agriculture as an example. If you were to double the wages of farm workers, the average US household would see around a $0.50 rise in their weekly vegetable consumption. Holy shit, I might die.

This is because the cost of labor is a small part of what goes into producing the goods. I think it's around 22% of the cost of produce.

The situation in the meat industry is the same. With construction, it's too complicated to say, but it's far less dependent on the type of labor you are talking about.