"NeoFirst.qst" Planning.

hi im nu can i help!!!!!?!??!!?!?

😛 😛

I saw your topic over at Pure, and this really interests me 😊 Graphically, I can't offer you more than what I already have in the database at Pure since you can sprite a lot better than me anyway, but I could help with actual design.

I have a few questions and comments myself though:

• Will there be other, smaller dungeons for certain items?
• Will the entire overworld be explorable from the start (Like the original Zelda) Or will parts be blocked off by certain items needed to proceed?
• Instead of an 8x8, or 16x32, why don't you just use a normal 16x8 😛

I want to help out with this because I want to get familiar with the new features as soon as I can so I can begin to incorporate them into the future of my own quest(s).

On the subject of the overworld once more, you were talking about regions? How's about the "normal" mountain which could be used as fire/ lava or snow/ ice or both 😊. A forest/ swamp, but the last one should be something different and creative that will really stand out and showcase some stuff. What about some vast underworld dimension, or perhaps a flying crystal fortress? And where would the player start? Perhaps a neutral, central field area? Perhaps you could make each dungeon hold a major item absolutely required to enter the next area of the overworld, or better yet, make the dungeon item get you into a secret. mini dungeon which holds the item needed to go on...

But... ...these are only ideas ... ... ...

Tobias/Rex wrote:

This really interests me 😊 Graphically, I can't offer you more than what I already have in the database at here since you can sprite a lot better than me anyway, but I could help with actual design.

That would be wonderful. 😊 When I design quests, I usually end up winging a lot of the actual physical areas and such. It'd be really nice to know what we'd be doing before we do it. I don't want to slap down a really nice area, then not have it "connect" with other areas.

Replies in Bold to the following:[quote]I have a few questions and comments myself though:

• Will there be other, smaller dungeons for certain items? I hadn't thought of this, really. I have no idea whatsoever what we'd be doing in terms of the items, but I -think- they'd have to do with the dungeons. I probably want the second dungeon (Actually, the third.) to be fairly non-linear. The items and their placement will definitely have something to do with that. I have a sample of the third dungeon style on my computer that I should upload eventually.
• Will the entire overworld be explorable from the start (Like the original Zelda) Or will parts be blocked off by certain items needed to proceed? I sort of doubt that. If it IS available, then the first few screens within the next dungeon Will NOT be accessible if you haven't completed the previous dungeon. I think that's how I'll set it up. However, you will probably be able to get into at least a few screens of the next dungeon if you haven't completed the previous. ... So yes, I suppose the overworld will be totally accessible to you. However, a few areas won't be, but they'll only be single screens. Of course, it'll be up to you to realize that you'll be walking into a red-ring or higher area without any ring at all, and be aware of the risks regarding such an endeavor.
• Instead of an 8x8, or 16x32, why don't you just use a normal 16x8 :P This has to do with the design of the quest. :P I do kinda want to get the world themes all fleshed out and theorized before we start designing the actual screens. It's nice to get a sense of size, depth, and perspective of each area before you begin so you'll know how big you need to make everything else.

I want to help out with this because I want to get familiar with the new features as soon as I can so I can begin to incorporate them into the future of my own quest(s).

On the subject of the overworld once more, you were talking about regions? How's about the "normal" mountain which could be used as fire/ lava or snow/ ice or both 😊.

A forest/ swamp, but the last one should be something different and creative that will really stand out and showcase some stuff.

What about some vast underworld dimension, or perhaps a flying crystal fortress? And where would the player start? Perhaps a neutral, central field area?

Perhaps you could make each dungeon hold a major item absolutely required to enter the next area of the overworld, or better yet, make the dungeon item get you into a secret. mini dungeon which holds the item needed to go on...

I suppose I can officially apply for some stuff then 😊

Just a little note before I start listing things, maybe we should get a few more people before anything is actually finalized...

• Sketching (Literally, sketching, as in draw and scan) some "beta" maps of what ever you want, but I'm assuming more people will jump on this since its only been a couple hours since you posted this 😛).
• Of course, I can also draw screens in ZC (Though I prefer overworld to dungeon screens) and I will say I am pretty good at that 😃
• Much later down the road, I would love to beta test (preferably the difficulty portion).

If this is supposed to be a showcase of ZC's various features, then we should use other music formats instead of just midi. To not do so would be like endorsing the idea that they don't matter, which has been a curiously prevalent notion ever since their introduction in response to everyone asking for them.

Tobias_Daboi wrote:I suppose I can officially apply for some stuff then 😊

Just a little note before I start listing things, maybe we should get a few more people before anything is actually finalized...

• Sketching (Literally, sketching, as in draw and scan) some "beta" maps of what ever you want, but I'm assuming more people will jump on this since its only been a couple hours since you posted this 😛).
• Of course, I can also draw screens in ZC (Though I prefer overworld to dungeon screens) and I will say I am pretty good at that 😃
• Much later down the road, I would love to beta test (preferably the difficulty portion).

Dart Zaidyer wrote:If this is supposed to be a showcase of ZC's various features, then we should use other music formats instead of just midi. To not do so would be like endorsing the idea that they don't matter, which has been a curiously prevalent notion ever since their introduction in response to everyone asking for them.

I'd like to help, i'm not a n00b, I started playing since 1.00 (or the version with the bug that allowed a player getting free items when buying bombs), and I've made 2 quests that I didn't released, I'd like to Beta Test the quest, I'll leave the quest to the experts...
Anyway, I have an idea:

• When you get the 'Boss Key', 'Compass' OR the 'Map' use a Boss Flag to turn the dungeon different, Example: When you get the Map, the traps will start moving.

Britannianhero4 wrote:

• A second dungeon will be somewhat more difficult. The Gimmick will be its primary focus here. It can be any of the stereotypical:[list]
• Forest Temple - Plant vines to ascend, burn trees to continue, play music to make things happen.
• Water Temple - Raise and lower water levels to go around the temple.
• Shadow Temple - A Temple filled with illusionary walls, items, sprites, and things to make your skin crawl. Undead optional.
• Fire Temple - Watch where you step. Possibly an Elevation-based dungeon.
• [font=courier]YOUR IDEA HERE[/font]

[/list]

I have 2 ideas:

Wind Temple - Wind, Peahats, conveyors and Armos are par of the Dungeon, Idea from Wind Waker.

Stone Temple - Gibdos, Keese, Pits and "Bombchus" are in this temple, Idea from Majora's Mask.

I know these aren't the best ideas...
You should post a poll for selecting the Dungeon after you get enough suggestions.

If you lower the bitate, MP3's shouldn't take too much space, but yeah, only like 1 or 2, and nothing copyrighted just in case.

as was mentioned, my tileset can be used for this, and should be easy to use, since it's based of the original Zelda, which used no layers (this uses layers, but very few). I could also make the Link sprite, since I now know how to do it easily (after twelve attempts, you'd think I would). and I could make a palette that would utilize the new enhanced colors feature, for demonstration

I think the Shadow Temple would be the most exploitable for features, myself. The Lens of Truth gets very little attention because people don't really know how to make it truly required. The stuff that PrinceMSC did in Revenge 2 was a step in the right direction, but it can get far more evil now that we have layers and stuff (invisible push blocks, for instance). :blah:

Regarding a major gimmick, moving the ferry of the dead around a "moat" that runs throughout the level might be fun? Granted that would use a load of secret combos unless you know what you are doing, I think that would be an interesting idea, still. :shrug:

Traps would also be fun (not the spike things... I mean actual traps). Yeah... be happy I've not made it to a difficult dungeon in my quest designs thus far. :evil:

Eh... these are just ideas I'm throwing out, though. :shrug:

Don't forget that the new beta(really, we should wait for it) has save combos, combo flag attribution, mutiple warps, and whatever else there is.

the best tileset to use would be my edited zero tileset. It has every item and misc/eaopons (including Nayru's Love). But I'll have to post it up when i get my cord back...

Dlbrooks33, you'd probably need to post screenshots. Gashin, (*b*) you too, please. By "Tileset," *b*, I'm imagining your Hyrule Fantasy tileset. However, that's yours, and probably isn't as available as my imagination makes it out to be. 😛 Screenshots of anything anyone has to offer would be most prime. Otherwise, we'd probably go with a somewhat modified Minish Cap Tileset, including tiles from Freedom's Adventure Tileset. He graciously offered up the use of many of his tiles.

Nick, a Shadow Temple would be a great idea. The use of the Lens of Truth would be a wonderful tool for backtracking. Very, very much. We'd need an infinite source of magic though. Perhaps a "pool" link can walk under which would contain an infinite amount of Magic(Large containers under a layer 3 canopy? That would be nifty. 😛

Anyone who plans to offer their tileset to this should keep in mind that it's going to get packed with ZC. Think twice if you don't want it to be freely rippable, because there will be people asking "How can I use this set?!@!11".

Dart Zaidyer wrote:Anyone who plans to offer their tileset to this should keep in mind that it's going to get packed with ZC. Think twice if you don't want it to be freely rippable, because there will be people asking "How can I use this set?!@!11".

We must also remember that the tileset will become "The New Newfirst." Everyone and everything that breathes, lives, and sort of thinks as well, will want to work within that tileset.

Therefore, it'll probably need to rely less on the graphics, and more on the ZC Tricks. The quest will be openable in ZQuest, and everything and anything can and will be used for everyone else's benefit. (The quest, in essense, will be Z-scavenged/|24|�3|).) So, it stands a good chance of becoming the new standard, or what NewFirst was.

The layering will need to be simplistic at most, since not many people know about it. Therefore, lots and lots of combo aliasing needs to be used, but without that much layering either. Trees can be layered, obviously, but weather effects, .. eh. Probably best to reply on palette changes for that. (Like the graveyard in TMC. That was mostly just ... purple.)

I'll offer my LTTP tileset up, if someone wants to complete it and get it ready for 2.11 use. However, I don't know if it is gunna suit the needs for this quest, but I thought I'd offer one way or the other.

Otherwise, I vote Minish Cap set, since it really hasn't been too overused yet. Whatever works best for the quest, just make sure you find easy/convenient ways of showing off the new features. After all, what your talking about is really the flagship of Zelda Classic. Keep that in mind when you decide what to put in it, how complex to make it, and who/how many people you have working on it. We all know what having too many people work on one thing does..

The tileset should probably be a variant of the Pure set. I'm sure that the folks over at PureZC can easily whip together something borrowing from all the excellent tile artists there.

I'm happy to help out on this, but you might just want to assign two or three dungeons + bosses to me so that I can work autnomously. My design philosophy is a bit more eclectic that the suggestions so far. For instance, if it were up to me, I'd nix the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, etc. cliches and go with more unusual levels. Just off the top of my head:

Marshmellow Factory - Use triggered combo animation to set up "bouncy" walls and barriers, use fire to melt some things, use combo animation for convayer belts on which marshmellows move around the plant. Probably a boss that you need to melt as the battle goes on.

Birdhouse Courthouse - Block puzzles representing the bird jurors in various rooms that need to be organized in the proper pattern, moving hookshot targets, some sort of overarching schtick involving finding which one is guilty of stealing birdseed or something equally innane. Boss perhaps a Judge or something.

Porcupine's Brain - Moving spikes, traps, triggered combo animation traps, timed screen warps on EVERY screen that move you between several daydreams (General layout remains the same, but subtle differences let you progress depending upon which daydream you're in) together with the actual biological appearance of the Brain. Boss some sort of giant tumor that changes form in each daydream.

Laboratory - Level involving changes in the four states of matter - solid being blocks, liquid being water, gas creating bubbles or something, plasma being explosive. Set it up so that some item or device activates state changes. As more water is created on each screen, water level rises through multiple levels. Boss some generic monster with four forms.

Venetian Ruins - Venetian-style architecture, level premised around translating alien symbols into the mathematical concepts they represent. Ridable gondolas running through canals throughout the ruins. As you uncover more of the ruins, it slowly becomes more and more repaired. (Done with strategically placed permanent triggers that move the character to another version of the dungeon). Boss perhaps some ancient monster that had destroyed the city in the first place.

Frozen Tsunami - Dungeons carved in a giant tsumani wave that was frozen by some old spell or something. Items and enemies frozen in blocks. A large oceanliner frozen into the Tsumani can be entered and activated, with moving parts.

Triforce Palace - A final level made out of a three-dimensional, four-placed triangle. Player can walk around each side of the outside of the triangle, and then can enter the inside. Inside, the triangle can be rotated in variety of ways that will shift the player around. Player needs to realize how the triangle works to get to the core, wherein lies Gannon or something.

-C

Perhaps we really shouldn't use a tileset that's been done to death already. What we should probably do is build a new one from scratch, using themes from an existing Zelda game, much like the way Newfirst was done. That way, we'd be able to skirt around the inevitably tedious work involved with breaking it apart and rearranging it to suit the needs of the quest, especially if it's supposed to utilize all these complicated tricks.

it seems the place I use to upload images and junk is down, so I really can't show a screenshot, but it isn't Hyrule Fantasy's tileset. that one is so complicated, I can hardly use it properly. no, this tileset is based directly off of the first Zelda's graphics, modified to fit the new style of mountains that are so common in the recent 2D games

using Pure or the Zero tilesets would be a mistake, to me. they don't utilize the full capabilities of what ZQuest can now do with graphics. plus, the previous demo quest had a unique tileset made simply for that game, which was also based off of Z1. then again, this might just be my ego talking

Actually, a tileset based off a Z1 ala Demo quest would be great.

Wow, those are some great ideas C-dawg! On the other hand, those ideas are better off for your own kick-ass quest. The triforce one seems pretty neat in and of itself. Another good idea would be a dungeon that's totally submerged, where instead of controling water levels, you have to search oxygen bubbles so you don't drown. It could come with a timer on each screen, and running out would damage you or somthing.

Also, with creative use of misc items and trigger combos, you can create Oracle series Gasha seeds thanks to the events system.

I know one thing is for sure. All my ZC tricks have become totally obsolete.

Edit: A quest based on demo quest would be a pretty good idea. For one thing, emphasis isn't on the graphics, but on the tricks able to be done. You would only need simple graphics for some of the more interesting tricks. A more complicated tileset would mean more time is needed to get things to look right.

I have no idea how we can incorporate any of C's ideas into this quest, but I'm sure we can think of some way to use his skills.

Well, that laboratory idea is pretty sweet. It'd be better to simplify it though. Maybe only 3 forms and have those forms be something like - past, present, future. So, it would be a time-traveling dungeon, where you can only get to certain areas in a certain time or something like that. Heck, I may just do that myself hehehe... Oh, and the boss with the multiple forms? Here's a simple idea for that:
Just put 3 boss rooms in a row, each one with a different environment (it might be pretty evil though if done correctly... (I don't mean like level 6 boss in Hidden Duality!)) It may need custom sprites though.

Shadowblazer has my soul, so I can't stay away that long.

I can be a planner, or music provider/suggester.
We could also add some kind of a intro movie to a title screen. You wait a short time, and there is a movie that plays.
More of my 2 cents.

You can do that, if you have the graphics for it. 😛 Ever played Teilyr's CoD demo, or my UCoL Demo? Each have a little movie that plays at the beginning. It's short, but oh-so-sweet. <3 *lol*

Okay, now here's the thing. (jman2050 is ... jman2050, and I'm ShadowTiger. And STFU if the name sounds familiar in a negative way. I use that nick everywhere.)

[09:02] <ShadowTiger> Okay, .. .. we definitely need to get a good tileset up for NeoFirst.
[09:03] <ShadowTiger> I'm waiting for Gashin to present a Screenshot of his set.
[09:03] <ShadowTiger> .. Now, ..
[09:03] <ShadowTiger> You had wanted to see another DemoQuest tileset, right?
[09:03] <ShadowTiger> Somethimg more towards Z1 than Z3?
[09:03] <ShadowTiger> Or TMC?
[09:05] <jman2050> I'm not sure
[09:05] <jman2050> I don't want the tileset to be too prioritized
[09:05] <jman2050> it needs to be elegent but simple
[09:05] <jman2050> leaning towards Z1 is better for that purpose
[09:05] <ShadowTiger> But still with a few layers?
[09:06] <ShadowTiger> I was planning something elaborate and beautiful for the sake of the three dungeons, but, ... ...
[09:06] <ShadowTiger> If it's not to be, ... ... =/
[09:06] <jman2050> hey, I'm not running the show here
[09:06] <jman2050> I'm just supervising
[09:06] <jman2050> :P
[09:07] <ShadowTiger> Oy. XD ... Well, ... ... you probably know best. I mean,
[09:07] <ShadowTiger> NeoFirst should accomplish a few goals.
[09:07] <ShadowTiger> I mean, .. look at it this way.
[09:07] <ShadowTiger> There are -VERY- few quests which allow the common person to look inside of it, AND be a complex quest,
[09:07] <ShadowTiger> AND Show how everything is done, AND be included in every release of ZC.
[09:08] <ShadowTiger> -I- learned how to use ZC by parasitising an unpassworded quest.
[09:08] <ShadowTiger> Since things were more or less set up already, I just modified what was there, and when I needed to know how to do something,
[09:08] <ShadowTiger> I just looked at a preset example.
[09:08] <ShadowTiger> Worked like a charm. > >.' I was questmaking in no time at all.
[09:08] <ShadowTiger> If there's a quest which does all of this and more, and is easily accessible to the masses, unpassworded, features everything and anything they should know,
[09:09] <ShadowTiger> and thensome, ... Possibly even explaining the situation beforehand via some sort of "Intro" to the quest,
[09:09] <ShadowTiger> .. there will be a lot more experienced newcomers entering the ZC Field,
[09:09] <ShadowTiger> should they play the quest if released with it.

Okay, now this is something we should be asking ShadowBlazer about. I personally think that there is enough here to warrant a Subforum for the creation of the quest. We'll be comparing a -LOT- of notes, and it's not something that we can do via PM, nor by placing poll upon poll upon poll upon poll upon poll and topic upon topic upon topic in the Beta Discussion forum. I -would- be willing to use my Hosted Quest Forum at PureZC for it, but that's not fair to the members here who don't go to PureZC.

... Thoughts? I want to PM ShadowBlazer, Eckels, or War Lord, but I'm not sure when slash if they're ever on. (I hate disturbing Administrators.) ... ... Maybe DN. O.o' He's an Administrator, and directly involved with ZC in some little way here or there, (Kidding, lol.)

Thoughts?

Things I still need to do:

• Update the list in the first post.
• Get some Screenshots from Gashin/*b* as to the tileset.
• Decide on a tileset, based on the above IRC conversation, as well as your input.
• See whether or not C's ideas would be useful for the dungeons. I'll bet we could work one of them into the second of the three dungeons, as that's what it's pretty much reserved for. (It's the "Gimmick" Dungeon, with the first being the standard difficult keyquest/map/compass/find-the-special-item/boss key/triforce dungeon.)

EDIT: A Copy and Paste from the thread at Pure:

Rex Zemenheart,Mar 1 2006, 10:29 AM wrote:I'd rather wait untill I see the tileset before I do anything. I have a few questions once more. I should only do one dungeon, so that other members have an oppurtunity to help out as well (And because I'm fairly lazy, but that is beside the point here :P)

We really do have a helluva lot to do... We don't know what items to use (But I'm guessing if there are only three major dungeons, two major items per dungeon could work very well). We don't know where things will go etc. We don't know the size of the overworld... There are still questions of other things to include like secret item dungeons, a town, an underground cave sytem with different entrances and exits all over Hyrule?

I suggest gathing all of our ideas into one giant list, and seeing which of them are... needed... Perhaps a poll maybe necissary for some, or perhaps just a discussion would surfice...

I can't wait 😊

I know, I can't wait either. :heh: We have so much to do, but so little idea of what we're GOING to do. That's why I've got this list up there in the first post.

We need a tileset first to see what we can do with it. Although we can always make new combos and tiles for it and such, it's important to remember what I said in my previous post with the IRC quote with jman. It's for everybody, not for the experienced ZC oldbies. (Or whoever has that level of skill with ZC/ZQuest.)

Once we have the tileset all figured out, we can build things around what we can feature using the tileset. When we know what we can do with it, we can start to plan the overworld.

When we're planning the overworld, a basic schematic of what we need to go where will be formed. Once we have that, we'll know what special items we'll need to get any by when.

Once we know which special items we'll be needing, we can place them within the dungeons. Now this is a slight note of conflict. Do we want to plan out the dungeons first so we're less restricted by having our dungeons depend on what we need for the overworld, or do we need to restrict our journeys through the overworld to the items we get in the dungeons? Very important to consider.

Obviously, before that happens, we'll also need a good dungeon plan for at least both initial dungeons. As I said before, the first one will be a very elaborate, lengthy, and well planned dungeon similar to PrinceMSC's dungeons in Revenge2, or like the Excavated Temple in Tei's CoD Demo. The second Dungeon will be something -very- elaborate and extremely creative. (See C-Dawg's ideas.)

We'll be making lots and lots of polls over the next few months for these, so we'll need space to set 'em up, of course. But that's for later.

In my opinion I don't think it should be called neofirst if you are planning on changing all the dungeons and such. The neo bit is ok but I just think first might be a bit misleading because people might think its just a snazzy new look for the first quest. You don't have to take note of this its just my opinion.

As far as I know, Tom, the NewFirst set is basically a "2.10 test quest" equivalent. It's both a tileset and a showoff of the new (AKA old.) engine's abilities. Newfirst had transparent layers, Cave 2 combos, slash, bushes, shallow water, the hammer, lens of truth, hookshot, etc. It was a showcase of its new features. I expect NeoQuest to be roughly the same thing. If the exhibition quest replaces another exhibition quest, it's still an exhibition quest.

Also, if you'll follow what I wrote in the previous post of mine, you'll see why we're designing this quest.

Here's a little screen that I made for my quest. I made the sun and the palette.
How do you like it?

OK, I made a screen, hope you like it (I didn't liked it):

I changed it, it looks better but still I don't like it.

Its good, but it would look better if you made it like foggy, or a bit lighter, with light rain. But it is still good.
What tileset did you use to make it?