Nightmare wrote:We should get new enemies and a few new options here and there. Some do overlap (True Arrows work either way, it was actually pleasing to see that, but don't just limit it to the Z3 sub please)
and, Nightmare, what do you define in ZC as Z1 or Z3? the way it sounds to me, is you're against the additions like slashing and 16 color palettes. a little clarification, please?
You want Z1 style improvements?
Allright what about making Mazes able to span across more the one scrreen, or perhaps making there be able to be more then two items per screen. Or Make mazes work inthe dueguons, I haven't seen any maze dueguons....
Its not that Z1 is incomplete, its that the lImits haev been reached , and the only Extensions to them are Z3 extentions, the orignal Z1 style deosn't have many logial extentions to it.
Another good exmaple might be to make a rule /upgrade on the old Limitatation on blue candle. Make it able to fire 2 or 3 blasts instead one per screen, that would allow for more interating puzzles that the red Candle would bust.
Maybe make an upgrade for the magic wand too, its a pretty weak eapon wiht all the new enemies.
Jsut little things like that I think woul please some Z1 people. Personally thoughI'd rather see things like the Pegasus boots and the Ice rod and pushing frozen enemies on switches, ect 😛
*b* wrote:that's a fantastic idea in general, Nightmareand, Nightmare, what do you define in ZC as Z1 or Z3? the way it sounds to me, is you're against the additions like slashing and 16 color palettes. a little clarification, please?
Slashing I am violently against. It breaks the Z1 mechanic of play. That should only be in a program for Z3 remake and higher.
Graphics upgrades, I'm not against very much. I think we should have the ability to upgrade our graphics, but still play Z1 style. New Quest 2 demonstrates that one.
The biggest no-no's and should've never been implemented IMO:
Slashing (Z3 style swords, save that for Z3 remakes)
Din's Fire
Farore's Wind (Z1 never had magic to begin with)
Naryu's Love
All have extreme potential to break the Z1 engine in half.
Things we could live with:
Hookshot (I made it classic style, this works)
Hammer (Darknut shields broken, a dream come true)
Flippers (believe this was left out for cart limitations the first time)
Super Bombs (and other item upgrades in general)
Magic Meter (if not abused and used for Z1-style items)
True Arrows (another cart limitation)
I have a love/hate relationship with layers. While they do have some potential, I'm still unsure if they really fit in.
If you're wondering where some of my opinions are on some things.
-James
Nightmare wrote:Slashing I am violently against. It breaks the Z1 mechanic of play. That should only be in a program for Z3 remake and higher.Graphics upgrades, I'm not against very much. I think we should have the ability to upgrade our graphics, but still play Z1 style. New Quest 2 demonstrates that one.
-James
so, you'd pretty much die if jumping was added? I think I understand, now. you want features based off of Z1, but not from the later games, which would include, but not limited to, slashing, picking up objects, and talk-to-able NPCs (people standing around a town, press A to start playing a string sort of thing), right?
[edit] you edited as I was replying
I see now. you don't like NEW things, but upgrades to what the original Zelda has? well, the good thing about that, is, all of those items that have been added are optional in ZC, like slashing, and the spell items
if all the enhancements like those were optional, as well as upgrades to what Z1 was lacking, would there be any problem? nobody is forcing you to make Link slash in a Z1 quest...
*b* wrote:so, you'd pretty much die if jumping was added? I think I understand, now. you want features based off of Z1, but not from the later games, which would include, but not limited to, slashing, picking up objects, and talk-to-able NPCs (people standing around a town, press A to start playing a string sort of thing), right?
Pretty much. I think my edit tells all.
-James
well....
you've gone and lost me.
If you don't want the new stuff, just don't use it.
Simple truth is, Zelda 1 was a great game but it got old years ago, and if that's all Zelda Classic had to offer, it would have got old years ago too.
Whatever doesn't progress, dies.
how bout multiple mazes per screen? for instance when link moves through the first maze on the screen he'll end up scrolling to the left, right, up or down. but when he completes maze 2 he ends up scrolling a diiferent way to maze 1.
of course you dont have to do this type of maze in sequential order. (meaning you can choose which maze to complete)
this would i think greatly enhance dungeons and the like.
?... I'm not a fan of mazes in general, and in my opinion mazes in a dungeon are even more useless/out of place.
Zeo wrote:Allright what about making Mazes able to span across more the one scrreen, or perhaps making there be able to be more then two items per screen. Or Make mazes work inthe dueguons, I haven't seen any maze dueguons....
Nightmare wrote:Well, the Z1 people haven't had an upgrade on their part in 4 years. Quite honestly, that's kinda rough.
I'm sorry, James, but I seriously don't see the problem here. Pretty much ALL of these new features are optional. If you don't like the new enemies, don't put them into any screens. If you don't like the new items, don't give them out. If you don't like the new combos, don't use them. I really don't see why you're complaining if these would have no effect whatsoever on any quest of yours that you'd be designing. If the devs were forcing you to use these in all your quests, that'd be bad, but, .. they're not. They're just not.
ZC is fine as it is. If it isn't forcing you to use these changes, then why are you getting so tense about it?
Now, if you really wanted to see more upgrades to the Z1 Portion, (Which, I will say AGAIN, .. is complete. >:-\ ) you'd probably have to actually list all the changes you'd like so people who aren't thinking like you could see what you mean by "focus on the Z1 aspect."
The thing is, as I just said, the Z1 portion is complete. You can already design as many Z1 style quests as you'd like, with using none of the changes to ZC which have been made. If you want something new, you'd be upgrading and changing ZC again.
So, James list your big suggestions for Z1. 😛 I'll be sure to post any gripes I have about them, so we can balance things out and make it even for everyone.
I pretty much agree with Britannianhero4 here. You posted a post that had this: "The biggest no-no's and should've never been implemented". But you don't have to use them. I mean yes they should keep Z1 fans happy by doing your enemy request (and maybe more Z1 improvements), but it seems like you want them to stop putting the Z3 stuff in the program altogether. I think that is bull, because Z1 people don't have to use them in the first place. That is the whole point. Just like there are a lot of Z3 people out there that don't want all of the Z1 stuff. They can just add the new stuff. It is as simple as that.
i think nightmare is afraid that the developers are going to forget about enhancing z1 and instead just keep adding new "features" which are useless in a z1 quest.
Yeah, I understand and I agree with him on that point. But it just seemed like he is totally against adding any Z3 quaitys to it. And that is what I am against. But yeah they should try to keep both happy. However, with a huge amount of people you never are going make everyone happy. 😞
if you want them to enhance z1 stuff start posting ideas and suggestion again... dont suggest removing stuff.
I'm currently working on adding new, stronger, non-godlike (Death Knight, Magic Octorok) enemies.
So far, I've added:
Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too.
Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run.
I'm trying to think of a few more enhancements to some of the other Z1 enemies other than just make them faster and increase their stats. Here are my other ideas:
Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks).
Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule.
Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land.
Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage.
Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump.
Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2.
Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds.
Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess).
Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight.
Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying.
Thoughts?
all of those sound just so awesome... will these be in beta 7? and like these will totally change the way quest's feel when playing which to me is an absoloutely awesome thing.
what you have stated above for all the enemies should remain like what you said meaning dont change them cause someone whinges, as i think what they are are perfect additions to the zc universe.
cant wait for the next beta/official release
... ... *Melts a little bit inside* ... ...
Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too.You can still block the boomerangs though, right? This will be a very interesting enemy.
Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run.Definitely very cool. iMHO, this is the most OoT-like enemy, reminding me of the Leevers from The Colossus desert. They'd rise, ram into you, then leave. If they miss you, they keep going. Dandy little things. 😛 They'd also appear out of nowhere. If you ask me, their name should/could be changed to Leever (OoT) rather than Leever 3, as Leever # implies it's a Z1 type enemy.
Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks).... ... Too dangerous. XD These will probably be places into fire temples as some sort of other enemy.
Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule.They will probably have their graphics changed away from Octoroks, to snails, or something. We'll see.
Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land.Sweet. Definitely sweet. I can tell these will have their graphics changed to Wizrobes very quickly. 😉
Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage.Okay, a little bit of trouble here. When it sees you, it charges you. But ... when it sees you, it'll also throw arrows/spears at you. Interesting. So, it'll be both charging at you WHILE it throws spears at you?
Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump.I'm definitely reminded of Z2 on this one. ... Yeah, that works. Very nice. 😊
Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2.Poison? Well, maybe the poison could just last a temporary while. :shrug: Poison by nature is a very, very fearful thing. Maybe a quest rule to tell if it's permanent or temporary.
Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds.Trying to figure out a Non-Pols voice equivalent with such a vulnerability. ... Okay, ... my first though is, does it have to be a silver arrow? You'd think any arrow would do. IMHO, you'd also need vulnerable tiles and invulnerable tiles for it.
Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess).Well, does it have to be a stalfos 3? :shrug: I mean, IMHO, you could have Gibdo 2 turn into a Stalfos 1, and not be immune to all weapons. A Gibdo 3 could turn into a Stalfos 2, but still be vulnerable to most other weapons, and the Gibdo 4 would become a Stalfos 3, AND be immune to every other weapon, because it's a "King" class enemy. It'd be the king mac daddy (lol!) of the other Gibdos. 😛 The one to go after to kill the rest of 'em, if such a thing were wanted.
Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight.Creepy. ... Actually, these could be useful as Boss Attacks. 😊 VERY useful indeed! :kawaii:
Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying.... ALTTP, anyone? Not bad. 😛
Britannianhero4 wrote:You can still block the boomerangs though, right? This will be a very interesting enemy.Yes.
Britannianhero4 wrote:If you ask me, their name should/could be changed to Leever (OoT) rather than Leever 3, as Leever # implies it's a Z1 type enemy.That's entirely possible. Can you think of a better Z1 variation? I thought about one that fires at you occasionally while it's surfaced. Soft or like a moving Land Zora.
Britannianhero4 wrote:Okay, a little bit of trouble here. When it sees you, it charges you. But ... when it sees you, it'll also throw arrows/spears at you. Interesting. So, it'll be both charging at you WHILE it throws spears at you?No. Imagine that that's a Moblin 3 at the top of the screen. You are like 6 tiles down from and it 4 tiles to the left. You walk to the right, passing underneath it. As soon as you are lined up below it, it will charge downwards. You keep moving right, out of its path. As soon as it reaches the row you are on, it will turn to face you and throw a spear, then pick a direction at random and walk around, waiting a few clock ticks before it can charge again.
Britannianhero4 wrote:I'm definitely reminded of Z2 on this one. ... Yeah, that works. Very nice. 😊You know, I honestly never though about that. But, yes, I guess it is very much like the ones from Z2.
Britannianhero4 wrote:Poison? Well, maybe the poison could just last a temporary while. :shrug: Poison by nature is a very, very fearful thing. Maybe a quest rule to tell if it's permanent or temporary.Yeah, a quest rule would be quite useful.
Britannianhero4 wrote:Trying to figure out a Non-Pols voice equivalent with such a vulnerability. ... Okay, ... my first though is, does it have to be a silver arrow? You'd think any arrow would do. IMHO, you'd also need vulnerable tiles and invulnerable tiles for it.I guess I could make two versions: One that is vulnerable to wooden arrows and another that's vulnerable to silver arrows. And, yes, there'd be a whole second set of tiles for it's vulnerable state (like having it's ears folded down due to the pain caused by the whistle).
Britannianhero4 wrote:Well, does it have to be a stalfos 3? :shrug: I mean, IMHO, you could have Gibdo 2 turn into a Stalfos 1, and not be immune to all weapons. A Gibdo 3 could turn into a Stalfos 2, but still be vulnerable to most other weapons, and the Gibdo 4 would become a Stalfos 3, AND be immune to every other weapon, because it's a "King" class enemy. It'd be the king mac daddy (lol!) of the other Gibdos. 😛 The one to go after to kill the rest of 'em, if such a thing were wanted.I suppose that could be a possibility. Thoughts?
Britannianhero4 wrote:Creepy. ... Actually, these could be useful as Boss Attacks. 😊 VERY useful indeed! :kawaii:To be honest, I don't really like this one that much. Anyone have any ideas for Lynel 3? I thought about a shield, but that's similar to a Darknut Death Knight, which would essentially make him a weak Death Knight, so a different class of enemy alltogether. Another idea I had was a magic cloak for him. Basically a reverse Darknut (vulnerable only from the front). So, you had to attack him from the dangerous end. Thoughts?
Britannianhero4 wrote:... ALTTP, anyone? Not bad. 😛Again, I honestly hadn't thought of that. Another idea I had was him firing at you while in the air, sort of like a childless Patra 2 that stops to rest a while and stops firing while doing so and is only vulnerable while resting. Again, thoughts?
Ok, here's my opinion:
I agree with all that said if you don't want to use non-Z1 features in your quest, you don't have to. I think most quest makers and players appreciate the extra items and features though, I certainly wouldn't want to miss the hammer or hookshot.
All these new enemies are getting me quite excited, and I think that is precisely the sort of feature that will make ZC even better. What I'd really like to see most is more LTTP-like features, specifically walking/running, and facing (shield!) one direction while moving another (with sword drawn).
The limitations of Z1 were, as said in this thread, partly cartridge limitations and now that we have today's faster hardware etc. it makes no sense to me to keep those limitations just because they make it more "original". 1st quest is still there and so is the option to create more Z1-style quests.
Indeed
ZC stopped being a port when it included ZQuest, DarkDragon...
To summarize my point, there's no reason not to implement features that weren't present in Z1.
My jaw opened up when I saw the list of enemies that you are making. Two thumbs way up. And now I am ready excited. :P
I have the same opinion regarding ZC's evolution as Nightmare. I appreciate all the work DN and everyone else has done, but ZC has gotten too complicated for me to use, and despite having some cool new features (Wind Robe is genius!), I still prefer the simplicity of 1.84. Now that I think about it, I had this discussion with someone recently, but I can't remember with who.
Anyways, a "guy" editor and a simple enemy editor (to easily change the tiles/animation, HP, and weakness of an enemy) is something I've been looking forward to since PM mentioned them way back in 2000 - they could be considered Z1 enhancements. I don't think these features are in the latest alpha/beta...
Might want to make some of the items unblockable by regular shields, and also, make it that Manhandla 1 beams are blockable by the Mirror Shield.
Otherwise, looks good DN. If you want me to test let me know.
-James
Dark Nation wrote:Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too. sounds cool, but the faster boomerang might get to be a pain in the ass very quickly. maybe just have the range of the magic boomerang?Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run. sounds like those big Leevers from OoT. very nice
Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks). depending on how long the fire stays on screen, and where the Octorok shoots the fire, this could make for some very interesting battles
Octorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule. awesome...
Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land. another great enemy. I can see so many uses for this
Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage. reminds me of OoT, only with throwable spears. I hope there will be a seperate sprite for the running *hinthint*
Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump. raining death. always fun
Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2. POISON STATUS!? it would be more zelda-ish if Link were cursed, and unable to use weapons, but poison is good too. make a palette to replace Link's when he gets poisoned, or a little "sparkle" animation to appear over Link's head. hell, do both. should be quest rules, though, so either one is completley optional (if either suggestion is added, of course)
Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds. another enemy that should have another group of sprites, this time for when the enemy is vulnerable
Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess). sweet
Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight. see Gibdo 2's comment
Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying. see Gibdo 2's comment
Thoughts?
comments in bold
and, each enemy WILL have new tiles they use, right? it would be so boring to have all four Octorok types using the same tiles...
Some of those sound like really great additions. Nice to see that in general they're not just the same as the older enemies but with bumped up stats.
Dark Nation wrote:I'm currently working on adding new, stronger, non-godlike (Death Knight, Magic Octorok) enemies.
So far, I've added:
Goriya 3 - Twice the stats of the Blue Goriya. He fires more often and the boomerang homes in on where Link was standing when it is fired (like Zora fireballs). The boomerang travels faster, too. maybe make it a fire boomerang
Leever 3 - Acts like the Red Leever. Starts 1 tile farther away than the red leever, but travels much faster. Also, only one appears on the screen at a time. Finally, it appears at random, so just when you think you've cleared a screen, BAM! a Leever 3 pop up behind you and makes a suicide run. kewel
Octorok 3 (currently in production): Moves a little faster than the fast octoroks (red or blue). Spits a spread of flames occasionally (like the Flame Gleeoks). how healthy is it? is it equal in health compared to octorock on crackOctorok 4: Similar to Octorok 3 but spits enemy bombs (a new weapon class) that hurt Link regardless of the "Bombs Hurt Link" quest rule. finally
Land Zora: Like the Zora but appears on walkable land. dunno
Moblin 3: Similar to a standard Moblin but will charge Link when he gets in the Moblin's Line of Sight (like a Rope does). However, once he reaches the same row or column where Link is (depending on if the Moblin is travelling vertically or horizontally), he will turn to face Link and throw a spear at Link which travels at twice the speed of a normal spear and does double the damage. now this is interesting
Tektite 3: Similar to a Blue Tektite but fires a fireball at Link at the height of his jump. add a tektite 4 which is the red variation of the tektite 3
Ghini 3: Similar to to a Ghini 2 but moves a little faster and will poison Link on contact. A potion, fairy, or Triforce can cure this. Link takes gradual damage when poisoned. A Ghini 3 can appear from a Tombstone 2 or Tombstone BS 2. make it hurt and act like a red bubble rather then poisen
Pol's Voice 2: Magic ears protect them from all weapons. Blow the whistle within 1 square of the Pol's Voice 2 to make them vulnerable to the Silver Arrow for a few seconds. finally another thing that needs silver arrows to beat
Gibdo 2: Immune to all weapons except for fire. After being hit with a healthy dose, changes into a Stalfos 3 (bandages burn away, I guess). great
Lynel 3: Similar to a Blue Lynel but fires whenever Link is within the Line of Sight. brilliant
Peahat 2: Drops enemy bombs while flying. gnarly
DN, what happened to the create-an-enemy contest enemies? Just wondering if they're still being put in.
Yes, they are. I haven't forgotten about the contest. I realized that Nightmare made a very good point and decided to work on enhancing Z1 enemies a little while I'm working on the contest winners.
The way I see it, there are three groups in this debate: those who want Z1-destroying features completely displaced, those who want to go as far beyond the original Z1 engine without making pure Z1 quests impossible, and those who want to be able to customise everything to the point where quests like Z4 and even non Zelda-like quests are possible (which I count myself among).
If I'm reading right, Group 1's complaints are that the devs have mostly been focusing on features that are designed to break away from Z1 gameplay, and that not using them for purity's sake does not stop everyone else from only making anti-Z1 quests. The fact that the majority of people are trying to do everything they can to make the best quest that is nothing like Z1 is what I think these guys are so damn angry about.
The problem here is that almost everything that has been in popular demand has been to make ZC either more flexible, or (optionally) less Z1-like. The biggest things people want right now that are plausible in Z1 are proper multiwarps and the Enemy and Item Editors. Neither of those will arise any time soon, and they will surely push everyone further away from the Z1 port ZC was originally made as.
The solution is not to fork the code, as that will just lead to a shunned and rarely noticed PureZ1 version. The current goal of ZC is to give the Quest Maker the ability to choose what features they want out of each game (Z1 and Z3 only right now). By rights that should be expanded to things not possible in Zelda games as well. However, this is at odds with the people who think that Zelda Classic should always play like Z1 so that the original is never forgotten. I can understand their sentiment. But why should they desire to control what other people want to do with ZC?
Oh yeah, if I made any mistaken observations in there, point them out clearly.
are some of the new enemies/features going to be in beta 7 or is it going to be a bug fix only release. at the moment i would prefer just a bug fix release.
Another issue I see is should the emphasis be on adding new features or on improving and debugging existing ones. (See vegeta's post above). It's a valid point that, say, a "simpler" and bug-purged zquest would add something to ZC. I'd personally like to see the larger zquest size (big or double) improved. In the same way I'm very pleased with the "dungeon carving" and "isometric" modes (this thread).