Rather upset.....

So why can't it be both?
Everything is there to make your standard Z1 game, and you aren't forced to use any of the newer functions.

Freedom, I've been asking for things over years like for example, Lv. 3 Moblins that would take more hits, but not be for example, Octorocks on Crack. These type of Z1 enhancements are ignored and there's a lot more concentration on layers and other things. The only new Z1-style enemies I've really seen are the Super Darknuts and the Fire and Windrobes. Can't we expand this a little more?

I'm just tired of these things being ignored.

-James

Well they could also start importing stuff from LA, OoS, and OoA. They basically use the same engine as Zelda 1.

Most quest authors are more interested in pushing the envelope rather than doing a straight-forward Zelda 1 adventure. Many of the new features are intended to cater to that.

I think before any new features in the spirit of Zelda 1 are added, the classic features need to be tightened up. Restoring backwards functionality and improving the faithfulness to the original NES game are just as important as finishing up the new features in 2.11.

James wrote:I've been asking for things over years like for example, Lv. 3 Moblins that would take more hits, but not be for example, Octorocks on Crack. These type of Z1 enhancements are ignored and there's a lot more concentration on layers and other things. The only new Z1-style enemies I've really seen are the Super Darknuts and the Fire and Windrobes. Can't we expand this a little more?

Seriously, don't forget that if you don't want to, you just don't have to use these new features. To ask it to go back to its roots is to ask hundreds of aspiring quest developers to stop using their plasma blowtorches, ion laser drills, and hyper beam cutters, and take up a bone chisel and a rock hammer, and try to realize their questing dreams with those tools rather than what they already had.

Just don't use the new features, James. It's all right there. :shrug: Nothing's stopping you from making a 4th.qst if you want to.

I've been the lone wolf crying in the night for a bug free version since 182, the only addition I've ask for is a few wav slots added and a way to set them to be screen specific, (like the sea sound) and I've never gotten either one, so you aren't alone.
Either gotta make do with what it is, or move on, what other choice is there.

Britannianhero4 wrote:What's the difference between new enemies and slightly upgraded enemies? The Super Darknut is more of a change than the L3 Moblin, isn't it? An Octorok on Crack is more of an upgrade than a Super Darknut is, isn't it?

Seriously, don't forget that if you don't want to, you just don't have to use these new features. To ask it to go back to its roots is to ask hundreds of aspiring quest developers to stop using their plasma blowtorches, ion laser drills, and hyper beam cutters, and take up a bone chisel and a rock hammer, and try to realize their questing dreams with those tools rather than what they already had.

Just don't use the new features, James. It's all right there. :shrug: Nothing's stopping you from making a 4th.qst if you want to.

I already abuse Super Darknuts and the new Wizzrobes. Demo EX reminds you?

I just want a bit more variety. I could make longer quests if we had more upgrades too.

I just feel limited at times Z1 style, and I don't care for the Z3 features moreso (I think the subscreen and maybe some extended items is all I've cared for so far)

So far, I find simple opening from the old one and saving it preserves most. Though backward compatibility would be nice. New Quest is pretty much the same as it's always been, same with the 1st, 2nd, AlphaDawg's 3rd, etc.

-James

whinety whine whee sniff sniff haa cough! are you buttholes serious? Zc seems like a good program and these programmers only try to make it better. Go make your own program if youre not happy.

Jovo that was blatantly rude. Nightmare just be patient. DN is taking priority on what most of the people want. After that I'm sure he'll start on some more low priority stuff. It's like the principle of supply and demand.

Questions wrote:Jovo that was blatantly rude. Nightmare just be patient. DN is taking priority on what most of the people want. After that I'm sure he'll start on some more low priority stuff. It's like the principle of supply and demand.

I've been asking for this stuff for a good 4 years plus, since the end of the PM days.

-James

Well, even though you have a point, I'd rather have the new stuff that are doing now than L3 moblins. If it was still a Z1 thing with no new additions I wouldn't be making games on Zelda Classic. But I understand what you mean, however, not everyone's wishs are going to come true, since it is the devolpers that make the decisions. Just like you said for 4 years you were waiting for that, some people have been waiting for a bigger screen for just that long. I say the devlopers are doing the best they can to make the majority happy.

Edit: Also, if you look on the ZC discussion forum, there is a enemy poll thread. The devlopers are going to try to add some new enemies.

Backwards compatibility is a big issue yes, but asking ZC to go back to its roots is just ridiculous. The Z3-ish and other new stuff that will be added make ZC tons better. But what's the mosat great thing about ZC is that you can still make those "basic 1st quest clones" as much as you will, but some of us want to create some new, fresh, kick-ass jawdropping stuff which is only possible with the new features.

About wanting something for years... heck, I've wanted and asked more shops to ZC for many years too but we've never gotten more and looks like we will not be getting more in a while. 😞
But I'm still happy with what we got here and I'm not making new threads about it... (Hmm, maybe I should =P )

It wouldn't be too hard to add most likely.

What do you have to do?

Copy the code, have the enemy read C-Set 9, and add maybe an attack that adds 3 arrows, take off 2 Hearts for Lv. 3 Moblins, etc. etc.

Can't be TOO hard.

I just want to make an addendum to this thread:

A lot of people here did not play ZC when it first came out. There is a group of about 500 to 1000 players that do not prefer the Z3 stuff in Zelda Classic, period. Zelda Classic was intended as a Zelda 1 remake. Personally, I do not like Zelda 3 very much, I like a few options, but that's about it. There are other people who think like me or will go elsewhere for a Z3-style program. And a lot of these people play quests like New Quest and Demo EX and won't touch anything else because of these reasons. I can't speak for many of them, but a lot of them don't visit AGN, but still contact me personally because they played the old versions and will play my things. I will also admit that a lot of these players might have left AGN for other reasons too.

I speak for a lot of these people and I stick with ZC because I had a role in designing this. Who do you think put in the hours to get the first and second quests right? I know things change, but I think I have a right to speak out when the Z1 part is being neglected for the sheer fact I've been here forever. We're not being addressed at all.

My 2C, I'll be MKDS'ing later most likely.

-James

Nightmare wrote:It wouldn't be too hard to add most likely.

What do you have to do?

Copy the code, have the enemy read C-Set 9, and add maybe an attack that adds 3 arrows, take off 2 Hearts for Lv. 3 Moblins, etc. etc.

Can't be TOO hard.

I just want to make an addendum to this thread:

-James

Well with this part I have to agree. I mean, how hard can it be to add a simple enemy, or add more shops to the list? I don't know anything about programming, but I don't believe it could take more than 5 minutes or so. But with my luck I'm totally wrong of course... 😊

Copy the code, have the enemy read C-Set 9, and add maybe an attack that adds 3 arrows, take off 2 Hearts for Lv. 3 Moblins, etc. etc.

Can't be TOO hard.

Dart Zaidyer wrote:Except for the completely random, unrelated bug it would create. It has literally gotten to that point, I think.

If it's that bad why don't you throw a private beta my way to make sure that the enemies work fine. Then, the rest can do their job.

Once we add these, the Z1 people are happy forever.

-James

I'm actually kind of curious as to how you expect the Z1 elements to be expanded. Everything Zelda 1 did ZC can do, tenfold. However, if you've got suggestions (besides the enemy complaint, which is being addressed), I'm sure DN and I would be happy to implement them.

I'll write the enemy list up tonight if it'll help.

-James

I do agree with some things. I do like some of the newer features such as Room carry overs. (We needed that for AGES I tell you!) Layering was good but takes time to do. But I don't happen to like some of the people who judge directly off the screenshot and say "This quest is good, but the graphics are bad so it get a 2." Look at your quest. It's one of better classic ones around. (Demo ex. Although it was really a DX verison Demo quest Phantom Menace did, it takes alot to get remakes done correctly.)

Although I was a bit of a snot when I first joined and tried to beat it when I first started ZC. But I wouldn't want to see Dungeons with blank empty rooms with barely any puzzles. Add some detail but not completely blank.

Kingboo30 wrote:I do agree with some things. I do like some of the newer features such as Room carry overs. (We needed that for AGES I tell you!) Layering was good but takes time to do. But I don't happen to like some of the people who judge directly off the screenshot and say "This quest is good, but the graphics are bad so it get a 2." Look at your quest. It's one of better classic ones around. (Demo ex. Although it was really a DX verison Demo quest Phantom Menace did, it takes alot to get remakes done correctly.)

Although I was a bit of a snot when I first joined and tried to beat it when I first started ZC. But I wouldn't want to see Dungeons with blank empty rooms with barely any puzzles. Add some detail but not completely blank.

Demo EX is a testament to how much time PM and I spent together. We tend to play the same way I think.

I'm working on another beta quest, I'll be around.

-James

I actually agree with Nightmare about a lot of this. I wasn't around in the days of Phantom Menace, but was under the impression (and again, perhaps it was mistaken) that ZC was intended, first and foremost, to be a *perfect* remake of Zelda 1. Nowadays I've seen bug threads (sorry, I haven't taken the time to actually find an example, but I know they're out there) where someone mentions, "this behavior isn't the same as in the original Zelda," and everyone else will jump in and say, "who cares? The current behavior is reasonable, why go to the trouble to make a tiny change that noone will likely notice?" This kind of thinking disheartens me: yes, of course I want ZC to keep evolving, to keep accumulating new features, but first and foremost I want it to fulfill its original purpose, to be a perfect copy (or remake, or whatever you want to call it) of the classic NES game.

For those familiar with the modern DooMing scene, my complaints about ZC are identical to those I have about jDoom: what the Doomsday people are doing is cool and very flashy, but in my opinion they have become so tied up in abstracting away game elements and adding cute graphics that they have lost sight of The Point of what a port is suppose to be in the first place.
[/rant]

ZC stopped being a port when it included ZQuest, DarkDragon...

as for what Nightmare is saying, I partially agree. Zelda Classic is supposed to be Zelda 1 for the computer, hence the 'Classic'. however, if you're so upset about this, why did you not speak up sooner? why start complaining when a Z3 style subscreen and Link animation is implimented, instead of when animated tiles were implimented? now, I'm not saying that I dislike the improvements ZC has gotten over Z1. I love that aspect, but I do agree that a port of Z1 should be simply a port of Z1

in Nightmare's first post in this thread, he said there should be a program seperate from ZC, to handle the new stuff that's been added on top of Z1 (if that's not what you meant, Nightmare, please correct me). I think that is a fantastic idea. I'd love to see a program, with all the features of Z3 and on, that is not based off of Z1's engine (if Z1's engine still exists within ZC anymore, that is)

I think, if the developers are willing, that idea could be taken to extaordinary heights, allowing the diehard Z1 fans to make their own quests with the basic setup of Z1, and everyone else to make their own Zelda games based on the collective features of the more recent Zelda games

just make two areas to download quests from. one for standard zelda 1 quests and the other for quests which use new features.

i am also aware that you can sort the quests by zc version but there is no way to tell whether the quest is a zelda 1 clone without first clicking the quest to see its description thus making it hard to find zelda 1 quest clones.

rectify the issue and then maybe nightmare and others will stop complaining.

(ps. im trying hard not to make it sound as tho your being annoying to the zc community in this thread but at the moment its a bit hard)

*b* wrote:ZC stopped being a port when it included ZQuest, DarkDragon...

As far as I'm concerned ZQuest is completely distinct from ZC... the former just happens to facilitate injecting user-created content into the latter. Nobody would claim Photoshop is part of the game because it can be used to draw tiles later used in custom quests; analogously ZQuest, though developed concurrently with ZC, has nothing to do with the actual game logic and how closely it parallels that of the Zelda 1 cartridge.

I guess the big problem is, there isn't enough "enhanced" Z1 support, while everything from Z3 is pretty much there.

-James

I like you James, your debates actually have points!
Here's an idea:
What if, when you started a new quest, it asked you what engine to use? For example, if you selected z1, it gave you only the stuff used in z1. Except for tiles.
If you selected z3, it would give all the stuff for z3. Except for tiles. And if you selected mixed, it gave you everything.
That's a great idea.

Nightmare wrote:I guess the big problem is, there isn't enough "enhanced" Z1 support, while everything from Z3 is pretty much there.

-James

I'm sorry, but if you ask me, it's exactly the opposite. At least from my standpoint. :shrug: The Z1 aspect of ZC is already 100% complete, as far as I know. The Z3 portion isn't even halfway finished.

Can you elaborate a lot, please?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enhance the Z1 portion sans enemies. Until that happens, I'm not exactly sure how we can address that part.

jman2050 wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enhance the Z1 portion sans enemies. Until that happens, I'm not exactly sure how we can address that part.

Well, the Z1 people haven't had an upgrade on their part in 4 years. Quite honestly, that's kinda rough.

We should get new enemies and a few new options here and there. Some do overlap (True Arrows work either way, it was actually pleasing to see that, but don't just limit it to the Z3 sub please)

I guess the best way to think of things is "How would this fit into the Z1 engine with minor improvements or enhancements without totally changing the game?" That's how to please the Z1 crowd. Example: True Arrows eliminate the Rupee requirement used because that was a cartridge limitation.

Z3 had a lot of different stuff to it and it's why object to it so much.

Anyway, I'll get to the enemies tomorrow.

-James