Ability to edit password protected quests

I don't understand the need to password one's quest in the first place. We're a community of modders, so what if someone want to mod our own quests? Take it as a complement. I used to make DOOM mods, you CAN NOT protect them with passwords, but the DOOM modding community didn't fall apart or anything because of it.

Anarchy_Balsac wrote:I don't understand the need to password one's quest in the first place. We're a community of modders, so what if someone want to mod our own quests? Take it as a complement. I used to make DOOM mods, you CAN NOT protect them with passwords, but the DOOM modding community didn't fall apart or anything because of it.

It has to do with ethics.

It's ethical to password protect mods?

Really though, most modding communities I know of do not have the ability to simply password protect their work, but they don't suffer for it. So I really don't understand why the ZC community values it so much.

Unfortunately this bug is also a feature. When constructing a quest, it is much easier to make a small change and then test it with the same save file than have to register a new name and select the quest every time you want to shift around init data. I do this all the time to test my scripts (yeah, it works as long as you don't save, because global variables will reinitialize).

As for password protecting quests, we had a discussion about this before when someone came up with a hash decryption program. While many users of the community are indifferent about passwords, we were concerned that some creators would fear that their custom content would be stolen (mainly graphics).

As for it being a security leak, it really isn't. [STRIKE]While somebody can use this to change init data on a quest, it will not properly initialize all of the quest's scripts, which means the quest as a whole won't play properly in most cases[/STRIKE] Scratch that, I didn't read the new development in the bug. Still, this is the equivalent of abusing hex corruption in old games to insert custom programming.

Makes sense, theft sometimes happens in other modding communities, though if the theif is ever foun out, s/he is disgraced and most good sites won't host mods with stolen content, and will be skeptical of future content from said modders. Still, I understand the idea that the easiest way to win a fight, is not to fight it. So yeah, preventing theft is a perfectly sensible reason.

I don't know if you really want to treat it as a bug--As CJC pointed out it is useful. Doing things like timestamping the save file data is like DRM for people that are not cheating.

I don't know.

Just bringing it to your attention, I'm actually in favour of removing password protection from future quests. That way if I find a quest too difficult or I encounter a bug, I can fix it myself (If it is easy/not a complex script).

Anarchy_Balsac wrote:It's ethical to password protect mods?
Really though, most modding communities I know of do not have the ability to simply password protect their work, but they don't suffer for it. So I really don't understand why the ZC community values it so much.

Do you have to care? Of course not. It's no different than taking, for example, the original Zelda game and hacking it. It's not your work and Nintendo probably didn't want people
to pick apart their work like that, but we still do. Same could be applied to when a company chooses to use DRM and users end up getting rid of it.

CJC wrote:
As for password protecting quests, we had a discussion about this before when someone came up with a hash decryption program. While many users of the community are indifferent about passwords, we were concerned that some creators would fear that their custom content would be stolen (mainly graphics).

Originally Posted by bmc10011
Ever wanted to be able to beat that quest that was to hard? Well now you can with this simple trick. What this glitch does is allows you to make the Init Data to what ever you want. First Init Data to what DMap and stuff you want in a new quest file. Note: The continue screen on the DMap is where you will end up. Also the author and title must be the same as the quest you want to do this with. I also think the ZC version and title of the quest needs to be the same. Next start up the new quest file you made and then save. Switch the old file out and put the quest you want to play. And your done! If it has scripts you might not be able to beat the game. The reason why this works is Zelda Classic just assumes that you made changes to the game to look like the new file. If that makes any sense. He's what the end result could look like. This is deaths power by the way.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/2lr6iv...zelda00678.png

So I just found out it also works the other way. You can start up the quest you want to play, then switch it with the other file, make a tile to the DMap you want to go to, and give yourself all the stuff you want. I tested this and all script stuff will work just fine.

I believe that setting quest version, and min. version would prevent that trick from working; although naturally, people are lazy, and don't often set those params. (I always do, to prevent serious bugs from creeping into save files, but I never set a password.)

Note that ZC (viewer) does not display the internal quest version number, or the min version number. (It doesn't display the 'quest number' either, but I believe that other than the devs, and one or two other people, including me; no-one has made quests that use the quest numbering feature.) I know of no way to read these values (on the user end), without opening the file in ZQuest. It will also break global vars, arrays, and some other components.

Gleeok wrote:I don't know if you really want to treat it as a bug--As CJC pointed out it is useful. Doing things like timestamping the save file data is like DRM for people that are not cheating.

I don't know.

I know: Timestamping the save file, would make it a huge pain to shift to another system, and play on multiple computers; or play the same files on more than one OS. In the words of Egon Spengler, 'It would be bad.'

Isana wrote:
As for the custom graphics, what about Nintendo's graphics? We use their graphics all the time and it isn't like they gave them to us and said we could use them; we just rip them from their games.
Just making a point though; I'm not against giving quest creators the option to protect their work. If someone wants to use someone else's work they should have to work a bit for it or, you know, just ask the creator.

A password on the quest, does not protect the graphics, at all. A player can screenshot, and thus rip, anything in a game that they want to rip. The password system is also entirely pointless, as there are tools for removing the password from 2.5 quests, and older quests too. if people want something, there is no way to prevent them from getting it; except for un-compiled ZScript, not stored in a buffer. (They can dissect a .qt0 file and try to recover the ZASM from it.) I believe a ZASM decompiler exists too.

I never put a password on anything. I think the idea is silly, and when people defend 'protecting graphics', I ask one question: How many tiles in your quest, are ripped from elsewhere> Oh, and how much of the music, and sound effects, is entirely original to your project? The only thing worth protecting, are stories, and unless it's not based on an existing work, or a true parody, it's rather hard to defend. Just about everyone who uses ZQuest, is pirating, and plagiarising on a regular basis. Asking others not to do the same, and trying to circumvent it, is purely hypocritical, IMO.

The password system is also a large problem with making a mainstream, open-source ZC release. If you want a better game engine, with more features, that is open source, start accepting a non-password-protected quest format, for the future. What I suggest, is to remove passwords entirely, and automatically strip them out of older quests when loading them with ZC 2.60. People may whine about it; but you know what? It won;t stop them from using the programme, and if ZC/ZQ didn't have passwords as of 2.5, people would already have adapted.

The entire model of content protection (or any other form of obfustication) merely strangles progress. That applies to all fields of science, and art, not merely modding. How far do you think the world of games would have reached, if any idea, was constrained to its creator, and solely its creator? We'd never have gone far beyond Pong, and Space Invaders, both of which, by the by, were [u]fully cloned by Nintendo[/u[ (without permission) and sold in Japan.

I believe that the main reason that Nintendo has never tried to censor ZC, is the way that the Japanese look at doujin, and most quests fall into the doujin category of art, and literature, except 1st.qst, and 2nd.qst. Those are where they may hold objections, but haven't.

For anyone worried about people 'stealing their strings'--goodness--or figuring out the ending from reading the string table (the only valid concern with strings and story) you can always either make a string table with 10x the needed content, much of it intentionally misleading, red herrings, and the like (Interplay was famous for that), or embed the strings in ZSscript files, that aren't in your buffer. It's much more tedious to decode a string from numerical values stored in ZASM. Hah.

My final thoughts on worrying about people ripping truly original content: The community would view them as pariahs, and shame them for it. I feel that the fact that we have communities, who would so that, is enough of an incentive to prevent it, at least on a large scale; but then again, I also can't argue against ripping a tileset from an original project, as you know, we all do that from other [u]commercial[/u[ works, as routine.

I forget who did it, but nintendo is well aware of our existence and because of us they're proceeds have probably increased for zelda games. I stopped playing Zelda games after MM; I hated that game. It wasn't Until I came across ZC that I started buying the zelda products again out of regret. 😞

I'm with Isana The thing about the password system is that it exist because some of the graphics, music, sound effects created are custom by their authors. Case and point. Also let me remind you that although PM painstakingly extracted everything using roms his original intention was to draw the tiles by hand guys.

Tamamo: It was Nintendo Power. Particularly an issue about the upcoming (then) release of Twilight Princess. They had highlights of various games and they did mention Zelda Classic as a "Fan program that lets you make your own dungeons" (paraphrased). I still have the issue around here somewhere.

ZoriaRPG: There is a difference between plagiarism and fair use. No one here or at the other ZC communities is claiming ownership of the characters or the ripped graphics, and for the most part they aren't making these projects without giving credit to the source material. I mean, the program required to run quest files is called ZELDA Classic; there isn't a dispute that the ideas we share are based off Nintendo's intellectual property.
You are also correct that people can rip graphics, sounds, and music from games relatively easily. However, your jab about music and sound effects isn't entirely warranted: there ARE members of the community who compose original music for their projects and there ARE members of the community who record custom sound effects for their project. Their inclusion in a work that also contains Nintendo intellectual property does not invalidate their creator's ownership.

All that said, the password protection system remains as an effort to be polite. Yes, there are ways around password protection. However, by HAVING password protection you tell others "Hey, I'd rather you didn't take these assets". If they do anyway, well, the only power we have as a community is the power to shun. Some users have come to depend on the expectation that a password will be enough to maintain this social construct, and the AGN staff agreed that password protection should remain for this reason.
In other words, it exists as a sign of community trust (or perhaps distrust) and it will continue to do so.

EDIT: FYI, Zelda Classic is not a pirated copy of Zelda 1. It was reverse-engineered: there IS a difference.
I'll elaborate. Take someone who is trying to learn to program video games. What is one of the first tasks they should conduct? Make a copy of Breakout or Pong. Why? Because it's a game that works, it is identifiable, and it is a relatively easy goal to accomplish. The creators of Zelda Classic did the same thing: they took an old game that was a close favorite and used it to learn how to program (That's why so much of the content behind the curtain is a mess). Was sharing it unethical? That I can't say. But it was created as an homage to a classic, not an attempt to steal content from a major corporation. I believe (or rather hope) that most people who use the program recognize this.

Yeah CJC pretty much said it. If someone stills assets from a quest without permission they're likely going to have stones thrown to them or worst blastlisted by the community as someone not to make a deal with.

CJC wrote:Tamamo: It was Nintendo Power. Particularly an issue about the upcoming (then) release of Twilight Princess. They had highlights of various games and they did mention Zelda Classic as a "Fan program that lets you make your own dungeons" (paraphrased). I still have the issue around here somewhere.

ZoriaRPG: There is a difference between plagiarism and fair use. No one here or at the other ZC communities is claiming ownership of the characters or the ripped graphics, and for the most part they aren't making these projects without giving credit to the source material. I mean, the program required to run quest files is called ZELDA Classic; there isn't a dispute that the ideas we share are based off Nintendo's intellectual property.
You are also correct that people can rip graphics, sounds, and music from games relatively easily. However, your jab about music and sound effects isn't entirely warranted: there ARE members of the community who compose original music for their projects and there ARE members of the community who record custom sound effects for their project. Their inclusion in a work that also contains Nintendo intellectual property does not invalidate their creator's ownership.

All that said, the password protection system remains as an effort to be polite. Yes, there are ways around password protection. However, by HAVING password protection you tell others "Hey, I'd rather you didn't take these assets". If they do anyway, well, the only power we have as a community is the power to shun. Some users have come to depend on the expectation that a password will be enough to maintain this social construct, and the AGN staff agreed that password protection should remain for this reason.
In other words, it exists as a sign of community trust (or perhaps distrust) and it will continue to do so.

There is a difference between plagiarism and fair use.

Emphasis on this: Plagiarism here, is implied to the story content. Opening a game with the same story as OoT, or Z3, and the same elements, is plagiarism, not 'fair use'. It's also a violation of moral rights, at least in Europe. Copying graphics would be a similar breach of moral rights.

The point is, that the password system is stymieing development of ZC itself. I won't quote from confidential letters, but believe me, it's a problem. If you don't believe me, ask the developers.

There is no viable solution to making ZC open source, and keeping a password system, and IMO, it's just childish to maintain it.

ZoriaRPG wrote:
A password on the quest, does not protect the graphics, at all. A player can screenshot, and thus rip, anything in a game that they want to rip. The password system is also entirely pointless, as there are tools for removing the password from 2.5 quests, and older quests too. if people want something, there is no way to prevent them from getting it; except for un-compiled ZScript, not stored in a buffer. (They can dissect a .qt0 file and try to recover the ZASM from it.) I believe a ZASM decompiler exists too.

ZoriaRPG wrote:
I never put a password on anything. I think the idea is silly, and when people defend 'protecting graphics', I ask one question: How many tiles in your quest, are ripped from elsewhere> Oh, and how much of the music, and sound effects, is entirely original to your project? The only thing worth protecting, are stories, and unless it's not based on an existing work, or a true parody, it's rather hard to defend. Just about everyone who uses ZQuest, is pirating, and plagiarising on a regular basis. Asking others not to do the same, and trying to circumvent it, is purely hypocritical, IMO.

ZoriaRPG wrote:
The password system is also a large problem with making a mainstream, open-source ZC release. If you want a better game engine, with more features, that is open source, start accepting a non-password-protected quest format, for the future. What I suggest, is to remove passwords entirely, and automatically strip them out of older quests when loading them with ZC 2.60. People may whine about it; but you know what? It won;t stop them from using the programme, and if ZC/ZQ didn't have passwords as of 2.5, people would already have adapted.

I would support the developers if they were to do this and finally make a public open-source release of ZC, but if they don't I can't say I would really complain either...

ZoriaRPG wrote:
The entire model of content protection (or any other form of obfuscation) merely strangles progress. That applies to all fields of science, and art, not merely modding. How far do you think the world of games would have reached, if any idea, was constrained to its creator, and solely its creator? We'd never have gone far beyond Pong, and Space Invaders, both of which, by the by, were [u]fully cloned by Nintendo[/u[ (without permission) and sold in Japan.

I remember a particular case where Sony(?) made use of DRM for music and their DRM was a forking rootkit.
I can't be bothered to look it up again at the moment though haha.

ZoriaRPG wrote:
I believe that the main reason that Nintendo has never tried to censor ZC, is the way that the Japanese look at doujin, and most quests fall into the doujin category of art, and literature, except 1st.qst, and 2nd.qst. Those are where they may hold objections, but haven't.

ZoriaRPG wrote:
For anyone worried about people 'stealing their strings'--goodness--or figuring out the ending from reading the string table (the only valid concern with strings and story) you can always either make a string table with 10x the needed content, much of it intentionally misleading, red herrings, and the like (Interplay was famous for that), or embed the strings in ZSscript files, that aren't in your buffer. It's much more tedious to decode a string from numerical values stored in ZASM. Hah.

ZoriaRPG wrote:
My final thoughts on worrying about people ripping truly original content: The community would view them as pariahs, and shame them for it. I feel that the fact that we have communities, who would so that, is enough of an incentive to prevent it, at least on a large scale; but then again, I also can't argue against ripping a tileset from an original project, as you know, we all do that from other [u]commercial[/u[ works, as routine.

Finally, in short, I just don't think anyone should make a huge deal about someone using assets from other quests as long as they don't claim to have created whatever they're using themselves and give credit.
If the quest is protected one should at least try to get in touch with the creator and request permission before going and just ripping what they want from the quest.
Don't just outright disregard the wishes of the one who created the quest.

That's pretty much where I currently stand on this matter.

CJC wrote:
EDIT: FYI, Zelda Classic is not a pirated copy of Zelda 1. It was reverse-engineered: there IS a difference.

The password system isn't halting ZC Development at all. The only problem is that unencoded quest files can't be opened in the player at the moment. Which isn't that big of a problem in my opinion. And I'm pretty sure Gleeok said he honestly doesn't care about it at this point either which means it's up to Saffith to fix it. It's one of the last things he believes NEEDS to be fix, and why I have no fucking idea. Let's move on and opensource the damn thing already and let someone else take care of it.

Tamamo wrote:The password system isn't halting ZC Development at all. The only problem is that unencoded quest files can't be opened in the player at the moment. Which isn't that big of a problem in my opinion. And I'm pretty sure Gleeok said he honestly doesn't care about it at this point either which means it's up to Saffith to fix it. It's one of the last things he believes NEEDS to be fix, and why I have no fucking idea. Let's move on and opensource the damn thing already and let someone else take care of it.