Zelda 3: The Return of Ganon Quest

http://www.thehylia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1871.0

Shhh. I used to be this guy that Captain Cornflake picked a fight with named Captain B. I wrote a Zelda 3. Tell nobody.

Oh man. I hope it's a bit easier than the old quest. I just don't smoke as much crack as I used too to be able to play such things. :P

Hmm, it's hard to comment on exact difficulty given how non-linearity will allow the player to water down that of the early levels, however, I do have a faux promotional image and a couple of screens:

Nothing much to announce right now, but here's a screenshot from level 6:

Couple of extra preview pics. Look at this next one, a long journey to the amulet, but still no compass or map. Hmmmmmmmmm...........

Am I not allowed to update my topic anymore, or was there a memory wipe that erased posts which happened within a certain timeframe today?

I think it may have been a database error, since I'm not seeing the posts or any evidence of their erasure.

Try posting them again now, maybe it's fixed.

Figured so, but didn't want to get myself in trouble, so it was better to ask. Here goes:

Okay, so I announced my quest, but what kind of experience can the player expect? Well, here's some of the features you can expect:

-Non-linear, complete levels 1-8 in any order desired
[spoiler]-Also levels 10-14, but you must complete level 9 before accessing any of them[/spoiler]
-The Heart Rings, Quake Scrolls, Whimsical Ring, and Peril Ring can be aquired, though they are disabled in dungeons
-The Flippers will be in the game, and although the raft will be useless after aquiring them, the Stepladder will not.
--Stepladder is 4-way on that note
--Also, there will be one level that makes extensive use of the Raft, and before the Flippers, a good chunk of the map will be inaccessable without it. So it will definitely get some milage before it goes obselete.
-Some levels are found not on the overworld map, but inside other levels
-Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, and Naryu's Love can be aquired and do not require magic or rupees. They also will work in dungeons, however, you must find and complete a super tough secret level to access them.
[spoiler]-Also the Magical Key, which will allow you to skip straight to level 15. Although you can not access the Secret Level until after level 9.
-An overworld compass, which will reveal where level 15's entrance is hidden[/spoiler]
-You can access the entire world map before even entering level 1
--Although this will require some exploring and grinding, and the Death Mountain area has invisible enemies until you find the Amulet. Some areas are also dangerous early in the game.
-Most item upgrades are not needed for the player to complete the game. Instead, they are conveniences. For instance, there is a level 3 candle in the game, but neither it nor the Red Candle are in any way necessary. However, the Red Candle will obviously allow the player to uncover secrets easier. And the level 3 Candle hits as hard as the level 4 Sword, allowing some diversification of combat tactics. You can skip either of these two and complete the game just fine.
--Another example is the Hookshots, the level 1 Hookshot reaches far enough that the player can complete the game with it. The level 2 Hookshot's further reach is a mere convenience, but it also hits as hard as the magic sword, making it a somewhat viable combat option if you factor in invincibiity.
--This does not mean, however, that higher level items won't be required to unlock secrets, but they will not be required to complete the game.
-Any high level version of Vanilla Zelda's items(such as Golden Arrow, and Golden Ring) will feature in the game, although some may show up late and I tend to use CSet 9 instead of the default one.
-Custom bosses do exist. One of which, is the old man from the end of Zelda 2 (he did, after all, use Dark Link as a means of ensuring Ganon's revival).

-Some items appear but work differently. The Wand, for instance. It hits twice as hard as the level 4 sword, and can hit more types of enemies, but can be used only once (but you can buy more in a shop). So it's more a strategic boost than a general tool at your dispoasal.
-If demand exists, I will also release an "Easy Mode" version of the quest. Although, to ensure that the player has incentive to play the true version of the quest, the ending won't be as good. It will, however, feature everything else that the truer, harder version has.

Are you going to have a separate counter for the wand? Like charges?

By which I mean you could make it use a custom counter and then let the player buy 'charges', perhaps with a limit of 16 or something.

I'm considering it, it would be easy to do with item levels and such. Though the amount is not decided.

Drat, I thought that you could set items to deplete counters in the item editor, but I just checked and you can only set them to increase counters on pickup.

Bummer. Though that seems like a feature that would be worth introducing. I think I'll suggest it.

No, but you can set item levels, and use both the "keep lower level items" and "get all lower level items" flags to do something very close to what you're proposing. The only problem is that you can't keep collecting level 1 items to get anything more than a level 2 item, can't keep collecting level 2 items to get more than a level 3 item, and so on.

BUT/b] you [b]can use the above mentioned flags, and have shops selling level 4 items, level 16 items, or whatever.

I can always just bring in the magic meter if this proves an unpopular usage.

Okay, so I gave a general idea on what the gameplay will be like, but you may want more details. So here goes:

-Arrows are more useful, and True Arrows are enabled. But enemies won't drop them, and you must purchase them from shops (this is a late development decision I made to differentiate them from late game swords which always have the beam enabled, otherwise, they'd just be Gohma killers and little else)
--However, they aren't very expensive, but this still means you must replenish your stock outside of dungeons (with one very important, late game exception, see below)
-Heart Pieces and Heart Containers have had their roles swapped. You find HC's by exploration, and get HP's by beating dungeon bosses. The benefit of this is that it makes exploration more rewarding, AND it makes playing the dungeons out of order less punishing. You need to beat them all anyway, so there's no point in using a whole HC as incentive.
--Though Heart Pieces will be 2 per Container, so as not to prolong the payoff too much.
-Dungeons are non-linear, though you still need to find the boss key. Though, this also means you can skip the special item/items if you're not careful.
--On that note, yes, some will have more than one special item, some may even have more than 2. However, as early game dungeons are small, don't expect this to happen too soon in the game. This will make dungeon exploration more desirable, considering that not EVERY room is necessary to enter. It also makes the map more useful, so you can use them to be sure that you have left no stone unturned, instead of finding the boss key, item, and being certain that it is time to move on.
--But none of them will be overworld only items, though this doesn't mean that they won't be MORE useful in the overworld. Overworld only items are exclusively found in the overworld.
-Dungeons are separated into 2 areas, the main dungeon, and the boss area, so that you can continue on the boss if you die. This probably isn't anything special, but not every quest does this. Also, with some bosses, you will be VERY thankful for this feature.
-Don't expect damage combos to be near as prominent as they were in The Link Paradox, I've gotten a bit more creative. There will be 3 dungeons that use them this way, but 2 of them are late game dungeons(and NONE of them are the final dungeon). For the most part, they're there, but not too difficult to avoid..........mostly.
--But also don't think you're going to have an easy time just because of this, as I said, I've gotten more creative......
-The Level 3 Candle can burn Manhandlas and Wizzrobes.
-The Wand, on top of doing Double the level 4 sword's damage, will one-hit kill many enemy types.
-It will be possible to stumble upon the Lens of Truth and Stone of Agony, but a bit difficult. If you do though, they help you find the game's other secrets.
-Clocks are temporary, but will make Peahat type enemies vulnerable.
-You can stumble upon Minus worlds, though they are little more than easter eggs and NEVER have any special items. These are areas where I mistakenly caused a room to be exitable from a point which it should not be, but decided to leave them in the game and put in a minus world.
-The final dungeon will be another overworld type map. Fully explorable. The objective is to find where the final boss is hiding. It will have secrets, like the main overworld, although these will mostly be easter eggs and hints, but some may be items that are a little broken (it's the final level, so why not?). There will also be shops, with an in-universe, story driven explanation for why they exist. And you might just have to collect some keys around the map before you can access the final boss' chambers, even if you do locate him.
--There WILL be tough enemies throughout though, including several unique to this "dungeon".
--It will also be color themed, unlike a normal overworld. It's still a numbered level after all.
--Finally, it disables the level 1 Amulet and Whistle, meaning you will NEED the Level 2 Amulet to see the enemies, and WANT the Level 2 Whistle for fast travel.
-You can also find the cheats in the game, though it will be vague.
[spoiler]--There is an in-universe, story driven reason that will imply as to why this appears[/spoiler]
--Expect them to be harder to find than the Lens or Stone, however.

I like that you're giving half-hearts at the end of dungeons. That's a pretty sweet idea, actually.

Will the final dungeon have mini dungeons, since it's an overworld map? You said there might be secrets, but it would also be neat if there were microcosms of the other dungeons that you have to raid for keys or something (or--for grind-driven players--a shop that sells keys to get around it).

Great updates, by the way. Looking forward to playing this one.

CJC wrote:I like that you're giving half-hearts at the end of dungeons. That's a pretty sweet idea, actually.

Will the final dungeon have mini dungeons, since it's an overworld map? You said there might be secrets, but it would also be neat if there were microcosms of the other dungeons that you have to raid for keys or something (or--for grind-driven players--a shop that sells keys to get around it).

Great updates, by the way. Looking forward to playing this one.

Full length dungeons? No, but mini-dungeons, you know, I wasn't going to, but why not? As long as they're all small and not particularly elaborate. It's not that I don't WANT to make more elaborate ones, just, you know, it'll suck the life out of me.

Glad you like what you're seeing. 😃

Anarchy_Balsac wrote:Full length dungeons? No, but mini-dungeons, you know, I wasn't going to, but why not? As long as they're all small and not particularly elaborate.

Yeah, I was thinking maybe 6-8 screens each. Small enough that you'd be able to fit them all on a single map. Couple rooms with enemies and then a key as the reward, ya know?

That I can easily do, I appreciate the suggestion, because yeah, I think just a little extra touch like that can be a very good thing.

Alright, it's getting there folks, only the final dungeon and secret dungeon to go. So, what about the tone and feel of the game? Well:

-The "Guy" in secret rooms will react in deconstructive ways. For instance, someone in a Super Bombed secret might note that his/her door sealing skills failed.
-There will be noticeable discord within Ganon's ranks. While you won't see rebels fighting your enemies, you WILL see some of his minions selling you stuff or even giving it away. All while noting how sick they are of his abuse.
-There are indeed twists in the story, and hints to what is REALLY going on can be found in the dungeons. On that note, minor spoilers:
[spoiler]-Ganon is not the ultimate bad guy, someone else is.
-The Triforce of Courage's disappearance is a clue to what is really happening.
-Zelda plays on important role, so why then, did she flee?
-The true plot is a no fourth wall plot where YOU, not Link, are the hero, but how?[/spoiler]
-Those who DID play the Link Paradox may notice some references here and there.
--I even made a few jokes at [MENTION=42714]Gleeok[/MENTION] 's expense 😃
-Enemy placement is not random or based solely on challenge. On the overworld map, they have designated areas, and dungeons use a small pool of enemies. This does not mean that they can only appear in one spot, but you'll feel like they at least somewhat belong.
--Of course, this isn't absolute, the rule serves the game, not the other way around.
--Tektites also usually appear near a Gohma....usually.
-A few secrets will have hints, but when that happens, there's a reason for it. Mostly, you just search blindly for them as you did in the original Zelda.
--But expect also to have to use many of the new items, and not just the Super Bombs.
-Passageways and item cellars aren't used much, but where they are, they will fit with the theme of the dungeon that they are in. (instead of just being the same generic ones for each use)
[spoiler]-Due to the amount of dungeons in the game (15), I had to reuse some color themes, but I at least justified this by matching up their main themes.
--But don't worry, they will still have VERY different feels.
---For instance, levels 5 and 11 are both water levels, but while level 5 uses the raft, level 11 uses the flippers, and makes you wander around the perimeter for level specific keys before accessing the central part.[/spoiler]
-Lava does appear in the Death Mountain area, so avoid touching it.

Alright, that's it for this update, next and last one will reveal a few last features.

Alright, it's time for the FINAL pre-beta announcement, this project is nearing completion, though I'll want beta testers for feedback and just in case I missed any bugs. So here goes:

-At [MENTION=39330]CJC[/MENTION]'s suggestion, the final level WILL have minidungeons, they will share the color scheme of the overworld portion, but not its music. They will, however, share music with one another. For a close analog, think of the Triforce dungeons in Lost Isle, but with Harsh combat, instead of puzzles, and a shared color scheme.
-After much deliberation, I decided that the overworld only items will also work in the overworld portion of the final level, however, they WON'T work in the minidungeons and final boss' lair.
-The Secret Level has been beaten and the recording will be posted to youtube. I won't reveal how to find it, however.........
--On that note, most of its rooms are references either to levels 1-14, or areas of the overworld map, albiet, much more brutal
-There is ONE Easter Egg found via Din's Fire on the overworld map, should you make it through the Secret Level
--Good luck with that though
-Unused Midi's are marked and left in the game for the player's extraction. Mostly just an easter egg sort of thing for you to know what tracks were originally planned for some areas.
-Like the regular overworld, the overworld portion of the final level will be fully explorable from the start, with no need to enter any minidungeons to get anywhere but the Final Boss room. However, you will have to solve puzzles or buy a thing or two in order to access a couple of areas. But you're fully equipped to do so the moment you enter.

Alright, until Beta Testing folks..................

I'm really interested in trying this out good sir. Thanks for making it. It looks really nice (I'm a fan of the original graphics).

Oh no problem. If you wanna know the truth, I started making it because I wanted to experience the non-linearity, discovery, and adventure of LoZ, but I already played it to death too many damned times.

Linear design- that's something becoming more and more common these days.
The openness is one of my favorite parts about the original LoZ. Skipping levels, coming back later, all that stuff.

I actually like to skip the sword sometimes. I once got all to the final level without the sword.
The magic wand can be used like a sword anyways! :googlyeyes:

Likewise you can actually skip the sword in the original ALTTP (exploiting a few bugs).
When zelda talks to you telling you her location you actually move one pixel into the guards each time.
Eventually, you go through them, and can get to the first dungeon, and beat it with the lamp and bow (I've done it once).

It's fun when there are multiple ways to play a game. Doing things different makes it like a new experience methinks.

Exactly, that's the reason for many of my design choices with this.

Wow, you knocked this quest out pretty fast. If I could work at this speed I might have released more quests instead of demos of random things.

Gleeok wrote:Wow, you knocked this quest out pretty fast. If I could work at this speed I might have released more quests instead of demos of random things.

Eh, TBH, it wasn't even that hard. The non-linearity means difficulty progression is less of an issue. The main thing that took me so much time with The Link Paradox was difficulty progression(i.e. needing to be sure that each new level is harder than the last).

Alright, I released the public Beta over at pure ZC, here it is for everyone interested:

http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=projects&section=downloads&id=560

Coolness! I've downloaded it and I'll give it a shot when I've got some free time.

Last call, 7 more days before I release the quest. Any bug reports or suggestions, get them in now.

Two days left before the quest is released, so if anyone has any input, make it quick.