Scared to death...

russadwan wrote: You think only in terms of what your mind can comprehend.

Really? I guess I haven't figured out how to think without using my brain.

Alas, it must be a skill reserved for the religious.

Beldaran wrote:Alas, it must be a skill reserved for the religious.

A human is a human, and every single one of us is irrational in any one of thousands of different ways. Trying to pin the blame on religion is disingenuous because they simply using it as a one of many mental crutches humans can have to support a set of morals that is ultimately theirs and theirs alone. Its removal does not magically make ignorance, anti-intellectualism, racism, sexisim, or homophobia disappear.

If someone believes in a deity, that's fine with me. If they're being a fuckstick about it, don't target the religion, target the fuckstick himself.

I am utterly baffled by the view that anyone who doesn't believe in God has made an active decision to reject Him, and thus it's their fault that they see no evidence. Frankly, I find it personally insulting to the reason I became an atheist in the first place.

I mean, you accuse me of close-mindedness. Well that's all well and good, but it was open-mindedness that led me to question religion. I began to research the various claims of religion - looking at alleged miracles, and noticing that certainly in modern times, there hasn't been a single miracle to my knowledge that can't be explained by random chance. I began to wonder why 2,000 years ago, God apparently made His presence known constantly through acts that brought the enemies of Israel to their knees, and yet we've got nothing now. I learned that many of the stories in the Bible have their roots in the mythologies of other cultures.

So I find it utterly insulting that, if there is a God, curiosity would turn one away from Him. What kind of God would grant His creations the gift of critical thinking, and then punish them for making use of it?

rock_nog wrote:What kind of God would grant His creations the gift of critical thinking, and then punish them for making use of it?

(to those of you who are athiests)For the sake of argument, let's say that as our creator, God holds us responsible for the decisions we make, right or wrong. Much like a good parent, he'll lay down consequences for the wrong ones. There are those who say "What right does He have to tell us how to live our lives?" Personally, it's not my job to tell anyone how to live. I'll say this: If you don't believe in automobiles, would you step onto a busy freeway? I think not.

Me questioning the existence of God is not rebelling, though. It's me simply trying to make an informed decision about the world in which I live. Is it really my fault if I come to the wrong conclusion, if I have no way of knowing what the right conclusion should be? A good parent would obviously punish a child for doing something wrong, but would a good parent punish a child for making an honest mistake?

That is the definition of faith. The ultimate test is whether or not we can keep our faith in God's existence and teachings. The Bible teaches that we're not expected to be perfect, for that is impossible. We all have to do the best we can. God does know the measure of effort we put into our lives, and judges us based on that, rather than a scorecard of our sins.

callitaday wrote:That is the definition of faith. The ultimate test is whether or not we can keep our faith in God's existence and teachings. The Bible teaches that we're not expected to be perfect, for that is impossible. We all have to do the best we can. God does know the measure of effort we put into our lives, and judges us based on that, rather than a scorecard of our sins.

The Bible also teaches that you need to sacrifice goats and be nice to your slaves.

Since this thread is now quite derailed (but who would have thought that wouldn't happen?), I'll step up and say I totally agree with rock_nog on the matter that it's ridiculous that just because I don't believe in God, I've rejected Him. To "reject" something, I have to acknowledge its existence to begin with. Only a complete moron (or a glutton for punishment—see that other thread in Think Tank) would knowingly turn away from an omnipotent being that he believed to exist.

I also don't like the faith argument - you're not born with faith, so I hardly think it's fair to blame a person for losing faith when they never had faith to begin with. Whether I get faith or not in the first place is entirely beyond my control. Sure, I can see punishing someone who had faith but lost it, but if I never had faith, isn't the fault of whoever was supposed to give it to me in the first place?

I just saw this cartoon while I was browsing through the nearly-endless Toothpaste for Dinner archives, and I wanted to share it in this thread:

I know in this world growing up is ... well growing up. But what do you think about a kid growing up, never thinking about anybody creating everything until one day on his deathbed he is given the idea by a pastor that wants to pray for him beside his bed. The person has went his whole life not wondering just knowing that someday he will die and somebody will take his place and that is that. But bam he is now struck by this amazing question of, "did I live my life 'correctly'?"
How do you think your life would be different without trying to comprehend something such as huge as the galaxies or even just this world, where every person, every thing of history has ever taken place.

I had thoughts like these when I was a child. I was scared to death about death. I've always been an athiest at heart. Sometimes life can feel like hell. Life is what you make of it, so make the best of it while you're here and you'll die fulfilled regardless of where you're going to end up.

AlexMax wrote:Think about how much more it would suck to live forever. Humanity isn't going to last forever, and at the most extreme end you're either going to be extremely lonely in a 'burnt out' universe or your perception of time will end in the big crunch. Even if you could somehow 'escape' the death of the universe or if humanity itself became immortal, you would eventually wish you were dead from the eventual boredom that seeps in.

Never underestimate infinity. All I have to say on that.

How does an unborn baby view birth? Much the way that we do death I'd imagine. They have a limited understanding of the environment that they are in, they function more so then think. That nine months they are being formed must feel like a life time to them, and it's all they know. The though of going from such a warm and comfortable place to the traumatic process of being born and taking your first breaths... "Does my mother even exist or am I just here? is this all there is to the universe?"

When he is born he will see the mother whose belly he has lived all his life differently for the first time. He will also likely meet their father, and perhaps brothers and sisters who came and went before him in the womb. Over time the child's understanding of this new world grows, and he thinks in ways unimaginable to the baby he was in his mother's womb. The body is merely our umbilical cord to this world.

Now imagine the very meaning of time, and space melting away to be replaced with something entirely alien... Death, like birth is a passing from what is known into an uncertainty that we may not even fully understand when we get there, It may as well not be existence because it is a new definition of what it means to exist.

Breaker wrote:I've always been an athiest at heart.

I would only admit such a thing anonymously. I was born and baptized a catholic, and that's what I tell people when they ask. It's more simple than explaining that I've had chronic migraines since the age of 8 and grew up in an enviroment I wouldn't wish upon anybody on top of it. It's very hard to believe in God after experiencing that.

Now that I'm an adult I've built a nice little life for myself. The only things I learned growing up on how to be a good person was to do whatever the opposite my parents did. I still have chronic migraines though. The word chronic doesn't even justify them. It's hell when they come on, and heaven when they're over. Inbetween is life and I try to make the best of it before the next one comes on.

So there's a little nugget of brekkar's psyche that might help explain why I can be extremely bitter and complicated and yet... simple. 8 years or so on this forum and I think this single post has described more of myself than I ever have. Enjoy.

Edit: It could also be the everclear and monster energy drink potion of loveliness that I'm currently drinking that's inhibiting my inhibitions enough to not give a shit what any of you think or change your minds of how you live your lives.. and if anybody replies with some grammatical issues in my post, so help me god I will ban you from these forums.. eventually. because you're shit and focusing on nothing.

which brings me to something I'm curious about.. why are most of you so intent on changing eachother's minds so much?? this is an internet forum. if you put half that energy, which I hope you do, into your own life, each and every one of you could be very successful, and happy if you chose to be.

I don't argue when it comes to religion, politics, or abortion. There's no winning. Let people believe what they want. There are so many other productive things that you can be doing. That's all I see going on in this forum anymore which is why I don't post as frequently as I used to.

I'd argue to the death explaining to Callitday why he's got some weird issues or Glenn the Great that he's dellusional with a god complex, but come on... You will never win an arguement with somebody when it comes to religion, politics, or abortion. Move on to something more interesting. Like acts of genocide currently being committed all over the world that make the holocaust look like a child's play. There are so much more interesting things to be discussing and learn from discussion/arguments.

"There are songs to sing, there are feelings to feel, there are thoughts to think. That makes three things. You can't do three things at the same time. The singing is easy, should roll off the tongue. Thinking comes with the tune. So that leaves only the feelings."

As for War Lord's original post and to stay on topic,

As much pain and suffering I've felt throughout my childhood and young adult life, I wouldn't trade it for the world. It's given me an interesting and unique perspective on life that I want to hang on to. That sounds simple, but sometimes I lose grip on it and fall backwards into self loathing and the only thing I can reach for is the hate I grew up with. Worrying about Death? There have been many moments in my life that I had wished for it.

You have a good life War Lord, and a long time on this earth. Nobody knows what will happen after we die. Isn't it significant enough that we're alive to begin with and feeling the feelings we feel? To be afraid of death is amazing itself when we can't even agree or know how we came into existence in the first place. Think of it as a gift, not a ticking clock until it's over.

That's just my philosphy though. Just as religion is another. People need something to believe in, even if they're infactual, petty, or scientifically proven incorrect. If everbody believed there was nothing after life, they'd be extremely depressed. Hell, maybe that's why half the world is on anti-psychotics & depressants. People need hope to move forward or else they regress.

I believe not to even try to know what's going to happen when I die. It's the biggest surprise imaginable, regardless if we're still conscious. My goal in life is just to make an impression on the world so that I'll be remembered. If I rot in a grave, I'll still be alive in the memories of others.

Now there are Three Steps To Heaven
Just listen and you will plainly see
And as life travels on
And things do go wrong
Just follow steps one, two and three

Step one - you find a girl to love
Step two - she falls in love with you
Step three - you kiss and hold her tightly
Yeah! that sure seems like heaven to me

I loved that post, Breaker.

It's amazing to me to consider that at the end of my life, I will absolutely undoubtedly know the answer to the greatest mystery of all time. And then it's funny to consider that when I'm finally dead, I won't care what I do or don't know. Knowledge is this thing that living humans seek. Dead ones couldn't care less.

Loved your post, only have a quip with this little bit:

Breaker wrote:I'd argue to the death explaining to Callitday why he's got some weird issues or Glenn the Great that he's dellusional with a god complex, but come on... You will never win an arguement with somebody when it comes to religion, politics, or abortion. Move on to something more interesting. Like acts of genocide currently being committed all over the world that make the holocaust look like a child's play. There are so much more interesting things to be discussing and learn from discussion/arguments.

Problem with that is everybody is already on the same side when it comes to "Other things". To take your genocide as an example, I highly doubt that anyone is going to show up and say "Well all of those fucks deserved it."

An argument that can easily be won is no fun at all. An argument that can't be won but can't be lost... that's interesting, to me anyway. Because you have the endless point/counterpoint, you know, there's always a new direction the argument can go in. What's the point if everyone agrees, or it can be resolved with a five-second Wikipedia search?

Revfan9 wrote:Loved your post, only have a quip with this little bit:

Problem with that is everybody is already on the same side when it comes to "Other things". To take your genocide as an example, I highly doubt that anyone is going to show up and say "Well all of those fucks deserved it."

you have apparently never argued with glenn the great, tsa, fatcatfan, toolie, or any of the other very talented vocabularly mastered manipulative bastards of the past. all of which became administrators who quickly self destructed after a few fun rounds with me. they had issues, but they were intelligent on some level. each had their issues, just as i have mine. i kind of miss them and wonder if they've gotten over their egos, or at the very least acknowledged they had/have rather large ones.

and I said discussions/argue about such things and only mentioned genocide as an example. there are many interesting things, both good and bad, happening in the world that we could be discussing instead of impossible to win arguements. i have to put emphasis on the word discuss, since it seems many of you are obviously just around to argue. there is a difference. hopefully you'll learn of it and become socially adept enough to realize it before you wonder why you can't get past an interview for a minimum wage job.