I am going to hump Atlus' leg

I'm glad someone else remembers WD. My favorite thing about them was the localization notes in the instruction manual where they would tell you all the things they changed for the release. Like with Alundra, they remixed the opening sequence and made the bosses have less life but hit harder so they would be less tedious.

Working Designs is my favorite publisher ever, period. Their games had spirit. Many people will complain that they took liberties with their translations (for example, the original Lunar had a joke about president Clinton in the first town), or about how they tweaked the difficulties of the games they localized (generally making them harder), but it gave their games personality. The Lunar games would not be nearly as charming as are if WD hadn't altered much of the script the way they did (major plot points are unchanged, but extraneous dialog with random villagers is often made more humorous).

Working Designs poured their hearts and souls into every game they localized. Between localization notes, their message to the user at the start of any of their manuals, and all the extras bundled into their releases, they communed with their fans in a way no other company ever has. Their products always felt like they were by fans, for fans. They really loved what they did, and it shows.

I'm an atlus fan too.

:P I like that they're not afraid to try new "off the wall" ideas.

A game about surgery? Most companies would dismiss the idea. Atlus took the idea and made it into a great game.

A fighting game with a system based on MUSIC? ...Again, only Atlus.

An RPG where the main idea was to break the fourth wall? ...Once again, Atlus at work.

They seem to KNOW what kind of new (or old) ideas will make great games. 😃 and I'm personally hyped for Etrian oddesey 2. The ONLY thing that's been holding me back in the first one was the fact that I don't really have enough time to go dungeon crawling fro one hour wihout taking a break. And since they're putting in a quicksave option now... 😃 I'm going for it.

...in short, Atlus is probably my favourite Game publisher right now. Oh, some of their games HAVE been flawed (Deep labyrinth [Exellent game, but poor pacing], and Luminous Arc [...a bit of a clunky system, and a very predictable story] ) but most of their games have illuminated a little spark of awe in me. 😃 GO ATLUS GO!

You forgot a game: Metal Saga. Gotta love an RPG that features tanks, robots, and bazooka dogs~

I myself have always liked Atlus. I loved Disgaea, and way back when, myself and my younger brother couldn't put down Shining Soul II. (Shining Soul I, on the other hand, I could pass.) I know I've seen them all over recently.

I was thinking about getting Baroque, and my brother was intersted in Rondo of Swords. Are they really that good?

Baroque is supposed to be a 45% game. This sentence seems to sum it up:

It's a real pity that there are so many parts of Baroque that don't work, because the title also features some innovations for the dungeon-crawling sub-genre.

Darth Marsden wrote:Baroque is supposed to be a 45% game...

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong in so very many ways. RPGamer has a solid review of the game, and so does RPGFan. I'd actually like to know your source so I can see the review you mentioned for myself, because I can't think of a single part that "doesn't work." My guess is that the review is probably knocking it for it's punishing roguelike mechanics, which is something that roguelike lovers consider pros instead of cons. The game isn't perfect, but it's quite good... I've read through many reviews, and thus far, all the low scoring reviews I've read have managed to miss the point entirely. Other roguelikes, such as Nightmare of Druaga and Izuna, got similar low scores, despite being very fun.

Actually, I just found the review that has your quote in it. And it's not even factually accurate. The review claims you only have one attack, which is a lie... you have a standard attack, a wide-range attack that causes enemies to stagger, and a charge-up attack that knocks foes away from you. The review claims there are no healing items, and that the only way to restore VT is by killing enemies, which is also a lie. Meats heals HP and is easily found, as are hearts, which restore VT. Furthermore, using meat or hearts while at full HP or VT will increase your maximum in the corresponding stat. The review is just another in a series of poor reviews roguelikes get because the reviewer has no idea what the hell they're doing.

Seriously though, Darth. What were you thinking using that review as a basis for judgement? The guy didn't even know he had more than one attack. He didn't even know how to heal himself or upgrade his character! That review is pure shit on every level. The RPGamer and RPGFan reviews are much, much better (although RPGamer's comment on not being able to avoid enemy attacks is so wrong it's laughable).

But yeah. Baroque is a damn fun game. If you're a fan of roguelikes, it's pretty much a must-play game.

Well, scanned right out of Nintendo Power...

A 3/10 isn't too great of a rating...

I'd like to point out that the reviewer in that NP article mentions the fact that death means starting at level 1 with no gear as a bad thing. Anybody who tries to use strict death penalties as a negative doesn't understand the roguelike subgenre at all. The graphics aren't jaw-dropping? No shit, it's a remake of an old Saturn game. The localization of the game is actually really, really good... the lines aren't nonsensical at all, but they are oftentimes deliberately misleading... to quote from the excellent HG101 article:

The translation is impressive, as the game's script is intentionally obtuse and this comes across clearly (or more appropriately, not clearly at all) with the English script. The US release also has a full English voice track that is very good.

The gameplay isn't boring, either. It's not not an lightning-paced DMC-style actionfest, but so what? In fact, the review uses the phrase "as in most dungeon-crawlers, Baroque's combat is slowed down," yadda yadda. It's pretty obvious that the reviewer just plain hates the roguelike genre in general. Or, as Inzaghi over in this thread at the atlus forums says:

The text basically says "OMG, this is a roguelike!" Anyone who enjoys the genre won't share his complaints, I don't think.

As a member of the Atlus staff mentioned (they actually put the NP review text up on their boards):

This is not a universally embraced genre. Most often, it's either loved, loathed, or passed over.

The review was posted not because we agree with it, but rather because it seems to address the characteristics of the genre itself, and therefore makes for an interesting discussion. Also, we wanted to make sure folks knew exactly what kind of RPG this is.

We've billed Baroque as a hardcore dungeon-crawling action RPG. We've made no secret of the game's difficulty level, randomly-generated dungeons, and mysterious story. If you're hoping for Baroque to blow you away graphically, to serve the story up to you on a silver platter, or hold your hand as you first set out on your mission, you will be disappointed. If you're familiar with the genre, if you've been craving a dungeon-crawler recently, we're confident you're going to get your money's worth. Any fan of a good roguelike RPG will immediately feel at home with Baroque.

Over at HG101, there's a nice little thread entitled "Should I buy Baroque?" that's worth taking a look at.

But essentially, it comes down to this: people who enjoy the roguelike sub genre love Baroque. People who dislike the genre all hate Baroque. Some people just don't enjoy roguelikes, and although disliking the genre immediately qualifies one as having terrible taste and perhaps a learning disorder, there's not much that can be done about that. Part of the problem with Baroque, review-wise, is that it's not immediately obvious that it's a roguelike. It's in real-time, so people expect something along the lines of Zelda, or and action-RPG, neither of which apply to Baroque. Then they're disappointed by what it isn't rather than enjoying what it is, namely a fun roguelike with real-time combat and an interesting story.

And while I'm at it, I'll address the bit where some reviewers bitch about the story. Mostly this is because it isn't the kind of story you usually get. Most games have a plot along the lines of "the bad guy is going to do something terrible! Stop him!" Baroque, on the other hand, has a story line that goes "something really fucked up happened... what was it?" Further, instead of being handed over to the player by cutscenes, the story is slowly revealed as you play, typically insinuated and rarely explicitly stated. It's a lot like a riddle that you have to slowly figure out. Oftentimes, characters will even outright lie to you to throw you off course from what you should be doing to delve deeper into the mystery. It's really quite good, but I can see how people used to 15-minute long cutscenes may not enjoy the process.

Anyhow, Baroque remains an excellent game that fans of the genre love. The fact that the mainstream gaming media is giving low scores to a roguelike is par for the course. Even traditional roguelikes are lucky to get scores hovering around 60%, and Baroque is a nontraditional roguelike. Hell, these are the same publications that gave Oblivion "Game of the Year" awards, and Oblivion was a shitfest of epic proportions, as anybody who spent any decent amount of time with it knows.

Chill out. Not everyone is a fan of spending hours at a time wandering through the same repetitive mazes so they can die on floor 682 because the RNG decided not to spawn any health pickups for ten floors in a row. Some of us prefer games based on other things, like puzzle solving or reflexes or whatever. That doesn't make us retarded.

You said it yourself: Rougelikes aren't mainstream games. Most people don't like them for fairly obvious (and honestly, entirely valid) reasons. Especially on a mainstream system like the Wii, this game is targeted at a fairly small niche, almost all of whom already knew about the game, and were planning on buying it before they read any reviews.

DarkDragoonX wrote:I'd like to point out that the reviewer in that NP article mentions the fact that death means starting at level 1 with no gear as a bad thing. Anybody who tries to use strict death penalties as a negative doesn't understand the roguelike subgenre at all.

DarkDragoonX wrote:The graphics aren't jaw-dropping? No shit, it's a remake of an old Saturn game.

DarkDragoonX wrote:The localization of the game is actually really, really good... the lines aren't nonsensical at all, but they are oftentimes deliberately misleading.

DarkDragoonX wrote:The gameplay isn't boring, either. It's not not an lightning-paced DMC-style actionfest, but so what? In fact, the review uses the phrase "as in most dungeon-crawlers, Baroque's combat is slowed down," yadda yadda. It's pretty obvious that the reviewer just plain hates the roguelike genre in general.

DarkDragoonX wrote:But essentially, it comes down to this: people who enjoy the roguelike sub genre love Baroque. People who dislike the genre all hate Baroque.

DarkDragoonX wrote:Some people just don't enjoy roguelikes, and although disliking the genre immediately qualifies one as having terrible taste and perhaps a learning disorder,

DarkDragoonX wrote:Part of the problem with Baroque, review-wise, is that it's not immediately obvious that it's a roguelike. It's in real-time, so people expect something along the lines of Zelda, or and action-RPG, neither of which apply to Baroque. Then they're disappointed by what it isn't rather than enjoying what it is, namely a fun roguelike with real-time combat and an interesting story.

DarkDragoonX wrote:And while I'm at it, I'll address the bit where some reviewers bitch about the story. Mostly this is because it isn't the kind of story you usually get. Most games have a plot along the lines of "the bad guy is going to do something terrible! Stop him!" Baroque, on the other hand, has a story line that goes "something really fucked up happened... what was it?" Further, instead of being handed over to the player by cutscenes, the story is slowly revealed as you play, typically insinuated and rarely explicitly stated. It's a lot like a riddle that you have to slowly figure out. Oftentimes, characters will even outright lie to you to throw you off course from what you should be doing to delve deeper into the mystery. It's really quite good, but I can see how people used to 15-minute long cutscenes may not enjoy the process.

I'd like to point out my 45% came from MetaCritic. It's since gone up to 51%.

The problem is that games like this aren't out in the UK yet, and cost money I'd prefer to spend on games I know about and really want - Mario Kart Wii or Rogue Galaxy, for example. The only thing I have to rely on is reviews, and based on what I'd heard, this didn't sound like an awesome game. You may well disagree DDX (well, you do, clearly), but for most people, I'd say that 45-50% mark would be about right.

EDIT: Let's try the Gamespot one-liner. Maybe that'll sum it up a little better.

A fiendishly difficult, randomly generated dungeon crawler that at times can be an incredible work of interactive fiction, and at other times, a muddled mess.