Jennifer wrote:(Sarria, formerly known as Skeeve22 and KingArthur here, for those who don't know what I'm talking about- but you probably still don't given how many years it's been since she was at AGN XD) whose body is currently the same sex as mine (and we both want to defile our holy temples with all that sex change rubbish)
Are you kidding me? I remember seeing a pic of Skeeve22/KingArthur and he looked as male as they come. Gee whillickers, just when I thought I'd seen everything.
I used to think that Beldaran was a champion of open-minded values, but it seems he's come full circle back to closed-mindedness.
Yes, it is scientific to doubt something because of lack of evidence.
However, it is never scientific to rule anything out, even because of lack of evidence. There is always the unforeseen possibility of new information presenting itself, often unexpectedly, that changes your view on everything.
This is my problem with atheism. Atheism requires more faith than should be allowed by a logical and scientific mindset. Athiesm is a presumptuous declaration that one KNOWS something. It's a jump to conclusions in the same manner that religious people can be accused of.
Agnosticism is the true scientific perspective. It is the open-minded perspective. It acknowledges that we don't have the evidence, but keeps the experiments going, always searching for it. It's the perspective I respect.
But Beldaran, no one is claiming that God is a substitute for science... Just that the possibility exists that there is some sort of divinity. There are times when I wonder if God and science are the same thing... I can't see the difference, honestly. I mean, I think it'd be handy to just sum up all the forces of the universe and call it God. Maybe not the kind of God most people have in mind, but to each his own. And you still won't answer my question of as to why it all matters. Why does anything have to be proven? I can't see what it could possibly affect to believe one way or the other. So long as one does not substitute for the other, seems fine to me.
It isn't possible to be entirely open-minded. It is more practical to be open-minded when the necessity becomes apparent.
Any discussion of any topic that lacks sufficient evidence is a debate of preference. Nothing about the outcome of such discussion can be considered judgment simply which idiot is more pig-headed and belittling.
rock_nog wrote:Why does anything have to be proven?
Because facts are building blocks that have allowed you to participate in this conversation. Progression.
Dechipher wrote:I think these threads are good for AGN, because they inspire intelligent thought and self-doubt, two things that help individuals grow (as opposed to the "I stole Pineconn's avatar" threads.)
😃 😃
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I have a quick exercise that we did in school a few days. Before you read on, write down your signature like you would normally.
Got it written down? Good.
No, really, you'll ruin it if you haven't written it down.
.
..
...
..
.
There were several different criteria, but one criterion was this: If you have one or more letters that aren't completely connected, you are open-minded. If all of your letters are connected, you are said to be close-minded.
This was only a study done by some psychologists, don't look at me if you think it blows. :shrug:
So yeah, that was a bit random, but that's me.
My O's or 0's sometimes look like 6's what does that mean?
That you have bad handwriting. 😉
Jennifer wrote:I seem to looooooooooove stating my opinions and expressing my identity and soforth and so on. This worries me because it seems selfish and, well, narcissistic. I think I do it because so far, I've never really been able to express such things in real life.
>_> I that's why most of us are here. Because we want to state our opinions and expres our thoughts. Not Narcissistic at all. In fact, wanting to leave our personal imprint is part of human nature.
And I have very, VERY bad handwriting, so...aside from the Y at the end of my last name, I have no open letters...
But I'm pretty open minded.
And I personally don't mind other people's beliefs. Everyone can believe what they want to believe. Heck, most of my friends follow a buddhist line of thinking. Of course, they all admit that they PHAIL at folowing it. :P
And Beldaran, I respect you and your position, but...
You just need to accept that other people belive what THEY think is right, and your point of view seems to label anyone with religious beliefs as "dangerous". I am FAR from dangerous (pacifist here!), plus I'm open minded, PLUS I can be trusted with stuff. I'm not some nut-job.
It's only the closed minded Zealots that cause problems. Not all religious people. As long as they're not forcibly trying to convert people, it's fine.
"One unerring mark of the love of truth is not entertaining any proposition with greater assurance than the proofs it is built upon will warrant." - John Locke, 1690
That is why I don't believe in the supernatural... because it's based on nothing but human fancy. People who use their imagination and emotions as a decision making tool are dangerous because they have a history of violence, dictatorship, oppression, burning people at the stake, mass suicides, sexual repression, ostracizing innocent members of society, abusing women, abusing children, spreading fear, spreading hatred, destroying entire civilizations who refused to accept their beliefs, and just plain acting like obnoxious ass holes. (ie jerry falwell).
To hear you call me closed minded is totally laughable. Yes, I am closed minded. I have closed my mind to BULLSHIT.
Sam Atoms wrote:Are you kidding me? I remember seeing a pic of Skeeve22/KingArthur and he looked as male as they come. Gee whillickers, just when I thought I'd seen everything.
Have you seen pictures of me? I don't want to be conceited, but I'm bloody lucky.
I've known Sarria for years and we're... let's just say, very, very close, and have been for a while now. I've seen quite a bit of her because we both actually have webcams (I was able to buy one and bring it home unnoticed when I was working at Wal Mart), and in my opinion, she can be pretty cute when she tries... but even if that weren't the case, I'll say again what I've been saying for years: what matters to me is who a person is in their heart and mind. No one can do all THAT much to pick out their own body; it's just a coincidence, it's not who they are. If it's nice, great, bonus. If it's not, it doesn't matter. What matters is who we are.
Taaaaaaangent. Sorry about that.
Glenn the Great wrote:Agnosticism is the true scientific perspective. It is the open-minded perspective. It acknowledges that we don't have the evidence, but keeps the experiments going, always searching for it. It's the perspective I respect.
Jennifer wrote:blahblahspiritiualismblahblahniceversionofchristianityblahblahgoodthing
Aegix Drakan wrote:>_> I that's why most of us are here. Because we want to state our opinions and expres our thoughts. Not Narcissistic at all. In fact, wanting to leave our personal imprint is part of human nature.
My handwriting varies a lot. I usually get the "o"s connected buy not the "a"s, but sometimes I get them. But you know what I really do wrong? I tend to write "t"s that resemble "l"s, like a loop with a line through it. In general my writing has way too many loops and when I go fast, it has little squiggly connectors where I started to do the wrong thing and changed it, resulting in too much of a line between, say, a double consonant or somesuch. I also screw up on "n"s and "m"s and "r"s, they tend to look way too similar.
Glenn, agnosticism is not truly scientific. Are you agnostic about Zeus? Are you agnostic about a cosmic teapot at the center of the galaxy filled with pink elves that created everything?
Just as you are atheistic about these retarded ideas, I am atheistic about one more retarded idea; that of a personal god. If I see some scientific data demonstrating he exists (ie he shows up and says hi) I will gladly change my mind. But until then I'll remain sane.
Beldaran wrote:Glenn, agnosticism is not truly scientific. Are you agnostic about Zeus? Are you agnostic about a cosmic teapot at the center of the galaxy filled with pink elves that created everything?Just as you are atheistic about these retarded ideas, I am atheistic about one more retarded idea; that of a personal god.
Hold up. I am agnostic about those things. I accept that there is some strange chance that Zeus or pink elves are real.
A retarded idea is a relative thing. You are thinking about it as being something absolute. Much of todays truth was yesterday's retarded idea.
The chance of Zeus being real is so incomprehensibly remote that it approaches zero. Same with Jesus's claims.
Beldaran wrote:The chance of Zeus being real is so incomprehensibly remote that it approaches zero. Same with Jesus's claims.
Once again you're arguing against the specifics of Christianity. Try stepping outside of the box of a particular religion. How can you argue that there is NOTHING out there? No higher being at all. Or even other beings. Do you believe that alien beings cannot exist, because we haven't encountered them?
On what basis can I argue they do exist? I don't know for a scientific fact there isn't a god, but I'm not ignorant enough to believe there is without evidence.
For me, "I do not believe in god" = atheist.
I also do not believe in highly intelligent extra terrestrials. However, I think the odds of their existing is very high given the vast number of star/planet combinations. I still don't "believe" in them though, because I think belief is an irrational and ultimately ignorant impulse.
Beldaran wrote:On what basis can I argue they do exist? I don't know for a scientific fact there isn't a god, but I'm not ignorant enough to believe there is without evidence.For me, "I do not believe in god" = atheist.
I also do not believe in highly intelligent extra terrestrials. However, I think the odds of their existing is very high given the vast number of star/planet combinations. I still don't "believe" in them though, because I think belief is an irrational and ultimately ignorant impulse.
I'm not asking you to believe in them. I'm just asking you not to disbelieve.
I don't think there is a difference between:
"I do not believe" and
"I disbelieve"
They mean the same thing. I think you're worried that I "believe there isn't a god", which is not what I'm saying. I have no belief in anything whatsoever. Everything I think, every assumption I make on a daily basis, is the result of a sometimes unconcious appraisal of the probability of something occuring.
I don't believe I will die tomorrow because logic tells me my neighborhood is moderately safe and the odds of a catostrophic event are very, very small. I don't believe that I will live through the day, but I think it is very likely that I will. It's all about logic, probability, and situational analysis.
For me, faith has no place in my mind. It is a malfunction. I only think. Sometimes I think incorrectly, sometimes I think correctly but with incorrect information, but what I am preaching is the power of clear, analytical thought.
It is my position that this type of concise, scientific reasoning about everything leaves no place for magical fantasy about what is, really, nothing more than "The Force" from Star Wars, except people really believe in it. I find this logically untenable.
Smacks Beldaran round the head with a mackerel
You are entitled to your opinions. If you think religion is stupid and pointless, then fine. But stop insulting people because they don't think the same as you. I admit you've cooled down in your latest posts and I appreciate that. But your language throughout this thread, and others like it which have touched on the subject of religion, has been, quite frankly, condescending and insulting.
Everyone has the right to believe whatever the hell they want - I believe that's an extension of Freedom of Speech, or something. But when you start belittling people because they don't have the same thoughts on God as you, that's Religious Discrimination. You're walking a very thin line here, Bel. Please don't cross it.
I started this thread because I was having a minor crisis of faith. In some ways I still am. Having read what some of you believe, I've been comforted by the fact that I'm not alone. You've no idea how much better that makes me feel. Knowing what my parents think of religion also helps (Mum believes in a God and that Jesus died for us, but that's about it, and my Dad doesn't really believe anything), but having people I can relate to (yeah, that's you guys) tell me that they aren't sure about this is more reassuring then I can say.
I'm still a little baffled about the issue, but nowhere near as much as I was, and for that I thank you all.
Well, everyone except Beldaran. 😛
Darth Marsden wrote:
\Everyone has the right to believe whatever the hell they want - I believe that's an extension of Freedom of Speech, or something.
Dude, you don't have Freedom of Speech. You're not American. Only Americans have Freedom.
Duh.
well if it makes you feel better, it must be true.
All right, that's it. I'm starting my own religion. Pineconnizanity. I'm a Pineconnizanian. I believe in whatever I want, and I'm free to switch among believing in a god, not believing in a god, and not caring if there is one or not. Because most of the time, I really don't care if there is one. It's not going to affect my life.
Oh, and I'm free to believe if War Lord is my god if I want. 😉
Pineconn wrote:All right, that's it. I'm starting my own religion. Pineconnizanity. I'm a Pineconnizanian. I believe in whatever I want, and I'm free to switch among believing in a god, not believing in a god, and not caring if there is one or not. Because most of the time, I really don't care if there is one. It's not going to affect my life.Oh, and I'm free to believe if War Lord is my god if I want. 😉
Jennifer wrote:What? You're making up your own religion on the spot but not appointing yourself either god or some big all-important hero? Seems unambitious.
I'm his God. Now your god wants a cookie. GET TO IT!
You know Beldaran, your concise, scientific thinking sounds boring. I mean, I prefer to make decisions based on intuition. Heck, sometimes I just pick at random what the hell I'm gonna do. I just find that analyzing whatever situation I'm in only stresses me out. To each his own, though, I'm sure your system works fine for you. I'd rather be happy than right any day. Seriously, in the end, does it really matter who was right, so long as you had a good time?
Darth Marsden wrote:Smacks Beldaran round the head with a mackerel
You are entitled to your opinions. If you think religion is stupid and pointless, then fine. But stop insulting people because they don't think the same as you. I admit you've cooled down in your latest posts and I appreciate that. But your language throughout this thread, and others like it which have touched on the subject of religion, has been, quite frankly, condescending and insulting.
Everyone has the right to believe whatever the hell they want - I believe that's an extension of Freedom of Speech, or something. But when you start belittling people because they don't have the same thoughts on God as you, that's Religious Discrimination. You're walking a very thin line here, Bel. Please don't cross it.
I started this thread because I was having a minor crisis of faith. In some ways I still am. Having read what some of you believe, I've been comforted by the fact that I'm not alone. You've no idea how much better that makes me feel. Knowing what my parents think of religion also helps (Mum believes in a God and that Jesus died for us, but that's about it, and my Dad doesn't really believe anything), but having people I can relate to (yeah, that's you guys) tell me that they aren't sure about this is more reassuring then I can say.
I'm still a little baffled about the issue, but nowhere near as much as I was, and for that I thank you all.
Well, everyone except Beldaran. 😛
Be good to your fellow man, do not covert thy neighbour's ass, etc. Yeah, that's fair enough.
Pineconn: You know that Jedi is an actual religion now, right? And I quote:
religioustolerance.org wrote:"Jedism" appears to be the fourth most popular religion in the UK, with 390,000 adults (0.66% of the population) identifying themselves as followers of this religion. This refers to the spirituality expressed by the characters in Star Wars. These are the "May the force be with you" folks. Very few subjects who marked this "religion" during the poll are actually Jedi. They probably intended their vote to be a statement about their opinion of religion, religious polls, or the government census. A hoax E-mail circulated around the Internet stating that if 10,000 people put "Jedi" on the census form, it will become "a fully recognized and legal religion." The Office of National Statistics...assigned the response "Jedi Knight" a numeric code to simplify the process of tabulating census results, as is typically done when many people answer a question by writing in a response not offered as a choice on the census form. Since the government does not recognize Jedism as an actual religion, the Jedis were finally lumped together under the "no religion" category.
Darth Marsden wrote:do not covert thy neighbour's ass
AtmaWeapon wrote:Seriously I strongly oppose this statement and ask you to cite proof. So far the most I've seen out of Beldaran is misuse of facts, attacks on people rather than arguments, and a blatant refusal to respond to honest questions about his position.You speak of intellectual fairness and support the views of a person who refuses to clarify his viewpoints beyond stating that they are better than ours?
Are you even paying attention?
moocow wrote:I wonder if he meant covet.DESIRE YOUR NEIGHBOR'S ASS
Wikipedia wrote:You shall not covet your neighbor�s house; you shall not covet your neighbor�s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
AnimalTrial.com wrote:Animal of the same genus as the horse and the the zebra, widely known in its domesticated state as the donkey. True wild asses are still found in Africa and in Asia but some are thought to be nearly extinct. Wild asses are gregarious, swift, and long lived; they are found in mountainous and desert regions and feed on rough and dry forage.
This is not the first time my occasional bad spelling has let me down. So much for my razor sharp wit.
