So...

That's kind of the essence of chaos theory - complexity from simplicity. Geez, I find the situation ironic - I bet if Beldaran's parents hadn't been so strict, he wouldn't be the free spirit that he is today.

Russ, what one thinks of one's parents has nothing to do with what information one wishes to expose oneself to. I've met Beldaran's parents, and hung out with him around them, and I know that he does love them, and as far as I could tell, always has, despite the occasional dogmatic disagreement. But their rules were impractical, and he rejected them. Instead of not seeing and hearing things they didn't want him to see and hear, he willingly and gleefully exposed himself to the truth—the world around him—and came out a better person for it. Beldaran and I certainly don't agree on everything, but we're good friends, and I know that he's a well-adjusted and intelligent person, and his quest for knowledge has had a lot to do with that.

If you're afraid that exposure to people's opinions might make you change your mind about something, then by all means, stay away from AGN. And never have another conversation with anyone, because they might poison your innocent mind.

Beldaran wrote:Pacifists are the morally useless chaff floating around in a society that offers them security they don't deserve.

Ok, I'll bite.

Why do you consider pacifists morally useless balls of fluff?

And russ...how do your parents oppose you coming to this website? Are they afraid that everyone out there is a stalker, or what?

russadwan wrote:That behavior doesn't baffle you nearly as much as you baffle me. It sounds to me like as a teenager, you hated your parents, and tried to be as unlike them as possible.

Which explains a lot to me. I must say, I can generally figure out why people act the way they do, but you're like an unsolvable puzzle Beldaran. So complex, yet with a personallity that seems to run off so few basic ideas.

The only thing that I disobey my parents on (somewhat) is coming to this website. Seeing how you've turned out is giving me second throughts about that choice.

Yes, if you make preposterous assumptions about people to explain their behavior, and then automatically accept that they must be true, then yes, you "can generally figure out why people act the way they do".

Or at least, you'll think you can; maybe if you were more humble you would actually consider the possibility you might be wrong about your baseless assertions before you passed judgement.

Outside of the house my parents attitude is basicly "don't get arrested, don't kill yourself, other than that go ahead" Practically no curfew and the ability to ride my bike to anywhere worth going frees me up. Inside, however, I need to be a good role model for my brother.

Bel, I obey my parents about half out of respect, yes, but also out of the fact that not having them pissed at me makes life a lot easier. I can have as much fun sober as I can drunk, and then when I come home it's not huffy speeches for three hours.

Modus Ponens wrote:Russ, what one thinks of one's parents has nothing to do with what information one wishes to expose oneself to. I've met Beldaran's parents, and hung out with him around them, and I know that he does love them, and as far as I could tell, always has, despite the occasional dogmatic disagreement. But their rules were impractical, and he rejected them. Instead of not seeing and hearing things they didn't want him to see and hear, he willingly and gleefully exposed himself to the truth�the world around him�and came out a better person for it.

Aegix Drakan wrote:And russ...how do your parents oppose you coming to this website? Are they afraid that everyone out there is a stalker, or what?

My parents are somewhat uneasy about the internet as well, but the fact that I've created a whole false identity across multiple accounts that would deter the average person looking into me reassures them somewhat.

Russ, maybe you ought to consider just not even going on the Internet anymore.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your parents are afraid that every social interaction you engage in outside of their watchful eye is going to loosen one more of your tender little fingers from your grip on Christianity. They also don't want you to put yourself in a situation where a boobie might jump out at you and suck away your conservative values.

Adam and Eve? You may want to re-read that story. Sure, they got kicked out of the garden, but they gained a far greater gift in return - knowledge. Before that moment, their lives were utterly meaningless. Sure, they were happy, but that is because ignorance is bliss. In eating that fruit, they joined the real world. As you may recall, the snake offered the fruit and promised that it would make them like gods, and to that end, he was telling the truth - in that moment, Adam and Eve became masters of their own destiny.

Amaster42 wrote:I obey my parents about half out of respect, yes, but also out of the fact that not having them pissed at me makes life a lot easier. I can have as much fun sober as I can drunk, and then when I come home it's not huffy speeches for three hours.

That's how it works with me too. I hate having to sit through 2 hour lectures about how I need to be more responsible, and I'm an adult now and, uggggh...

And no, I can't just brush them off and ignore them. I'm still living under their roof, RENT FREE. As long as I live here, I have to put up with their rules, or they might just decide to chuck me out.

rock_nog wrote:Adam and Eve? You may want to re-read that story. Sure, they got kicked out of the garden, but they gained a far greater gift in return - knowledge. Before that moment, their lives were utterly meaningless. Sure, they were happy, but that is because ignorance is bliss. In eating that fruit, they joined the real world. As you may recall, the snake offered the fruit and promised that it would make them like gods, and to that end, he was telling the truth - in that moment, Adam and Eve became masters of their own destiny.

xD Russell just pwned himself with his own comparison. And THAT is true irony.

Well, before everyone finishes psycho-analyzing me... 😊

You have to understand that 80% of the time I come here, it's when I'm at my very worst, because it's usually when I'm exhausted from homework or just my daily life. So the Me you get here is the tired, loose-lipped version of myself that takes wildly draconian and contradictory stances on things, and makes ridiculous proclamations about the nature of reality I can't possibly substantiate. Honestly, I'm slightly more well balanced in real life.

russadwan wrote: It sounds to me like as a teenager, you hated your parents, and tried to be as unlike them as possible.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I love my parents and continue to spend time with them. I call them several times a week and visit once or twice a month. (It's a 2 hour drive.)

I don't hate everyone I disagree with. I didn't disobey them out of spite or vengeance. I disobeyed them because I knew that censorship would do me no good and might possibly do me harm. I love learning about the world, and I wasn't about to let some ancient mysticism control my brain. I have the audacity to make up my own mind about what is and is not evil.

russadwan wrote:
The only thing that I disobey my parents on (somewhat) is coming to this website. Seeing how you've turned out is giving me second throughts about that choice.

Yes, you should leave now before you get it into your head that life is meant to be enjoyed, and questioning authority is fun and productive. I would hate for you to become an interesting person with lots of crazy experiences like me. It's better to just keep your head down and read the bible until the bad thoughts go away, like a good little worker bee.

Modus Ponens wrote:Beldaran and I certainly don't agree on everything, but we're good friends, and I know that he's a well-adjusted and intelligent person, and his quest for knowledge has had a lot to do with that.

Sometimes I get in a bad mood and become intolerant towards pretty much everything and start rattling off my rigid, draconian opinions about the world. Modus Ponens knows that, whatever my current asinine opinion is, I am self aware enough to know that it is, in fact, just my opinion. I accept everyone for who they are and what they believe. I only become violent and intolerant if someone is using force against me. I don't care if you are a gay muslim terrorist nazi puppy killer. If you hold those opinions in the realm of the intellectual abstract, we can talk and be civil. I love having friends that disagree with me. I have friends that are devout mormons, devout christians, atheists, communists, socialists, libertarians, and gay. I realize, in all humility, that I arrived at my worldview from the very narrow path of my own experiences. Everyone is free to do the same.

Which is why I object and disobey edicts of information censorship. If your ideas are so flimsy that they cannot stand the pressure of conflicting ideas, the problem is with your ideas. I know that personally, my opinions are all tempered in the forge of exposure to the contrary.

On my book shelf, christian apologist literature sits next to The God Delusion and other atheist books.

Aegix Drakan wrote:
Why do you consider pacifists morally useless balls of fluff?

Because they benefit from freedoms paid for by violence. They demand security from threats they don't have the courage or moral fortitude to confront. In the event my freedoms were threatened, it would be people like me that march out to preserve them, and pacifists who sit on the sidelines and shake their heads disapprovingly as everything they cherish is payed for with blood and sacrifice.

There will always be violent bad people. If violent good people did not stand against them, pacifists would live in chains, or be exterminated.

russadwan wrote: Beldaran's childhood and that story, a story which Beldaran constantly rejects, share many similarities.

Really? Because I don't remember getting punished for seeking knowledge. It has made my life infinitely better. My life is the very opposite of that story.

russadwan wrote:
But going back to Beldaran, it seems to me like they weren't controlling your thoughts. They simply wanted you to learn about things in due time, and not so early that you wouldn't know what to do with that information. They were just trying to protect you.

I didn't need to be protected from facts. I needed to be protected from lies, and the best way to do that is with facts. Unlike religious people, I don't view comforting stories as the best way to deal with reality. I like my reality in a glass with no ice, so I can see what it really tastes like.

Some of the very best parts of my life happened because I disobeyed my parents.

I was told I was not, under any circumstances, allowed to listen to Nirvana. So I hid Nirvana tapes in my room and Kurt Cobain inspired me to start playing guitar, something that has become one of the most important parts of my life. I was told I was not, under any circumstances, to watch pornography and explore my sexuality. So I acquired pornography and had pre-marital sex and found that I really liked it. I have had several really amazing sexual relationships that I count among my best memories.

Life is so short and you have one shot at enjoying it. Think for yourself.

Beldaran, I hafta say, you are, and always have, rocked in my eyes. I know we have our disagreements, but eh, I figure, if you never disagree with someone, you might as well be talking to yourself. I will say I think it's a shame you usually post at your grumpiest, but other than that, aside from your occasional bitterness, you are a pretty righteous dude.

The fact that you make a long post like that where you discuss the nature of your opinions, own up to your flaws, and stuff really wins you some points with me. (Whatever meager amount that may count for)
It would have been really easy to just say "Screw you guys, you can't judge me".

Beldaran wrote:Because they benefit from freedoms paid for by violence. They demand security from threats they don't have the courage or moral fortitude to confront. In the event my freedoms were threatened, it would be people like me that march out to preserve them, and pacifists who sit on the sidelines and shake their heads disapprovingly as everything they cherish is payed for with blood and sacrifice.

There will always be violent bad people. If violent good people did not stand against them, pacifists would live in chains, or be exterminated.

Alright, I do admit that you make a very good point.

And yes, I do agree that in a good chunk of cases, using the diplomatic option isn't going to work (when dealing with today's terrorist groups, for example. They don't give a damn about peaceful resolution, so force is the only plausible solution so far).

But I still stand firm in my belief that violence should always be the last, final resort. And even then, we should make every effort to use only as much as is needed.

I think actual violence is just a carry-over form the old days when we ran around with clubs chanting "I AM CAVEMAN". I'd like to think that we've evolved to become smart enough to be able to seek less painful alternatives.

Aegix Drakan wrote:I think actual violence is just a carry-over form the old days when we ran around with clubs chanting "I AM CAVEMAN". I'd like to think that we've evolved to become smart enough to be able to seek less painful alternatives.

Cavemen didn't say that, you silly! They said, "Ugga ugg, Tyranu Evavu!" xD

Ha HA! I love my new shoes! Running down the linoleum halls at my school I can slide sideways into the turns and actually drift around corners. Oh man, it's so much fun.

I wish my shoes were like that.

Whenever is rains or snows here, before I walk into a building with slick floors, I always get as much water/snow on my shoes as possible so I can do that.

What kind of shoes are they?

Hmm... Isn't that what roller skates are for? (Or those shoes with the wheels built in that seemed to be popular for no more than a month?)

Hoo boy I love Minnesota weather. Yesterday the high was 38. Today, it was 1. Thankfully though, I'll get a couple of weeks' reprieve when I fly home to Texas for Christmas on Wednesday, after which I'll be just in time for when it really gets cold in January.

Hmm, the only identifying mark I can find says GBX. *shrug*

Pineconn wrote:Hmm... Isn't that what roller skates are for? (Or those shoes with the wheels built in that seemed to be popular for no more than a month?)

Besides, it's much more fun to do without wheels.


Well, right now it's 28 degrees. No hot water. Joy.

Beldaran wrote:I only become violent and intolerant if someone is using the Force against me.

Fixed.

Amaster42 wrote:Ha HA! I love my new shoes! Running down the linoleum halls at my school I can slide sideways into the turns and actually drift around corners. Oh man, it's so much fun.

lol. Just make sure you don't do it on a freshly waxed floor... Then the slip factor goes up by about x10.

*has a mental picture of Amaster, who looks a bit like Laharl, slide into a turn, but start carrening past it, going "whoawhoawhoaaa!" and flying out a first story window, and face first into a snowbank*

XD

I just got my flu shot today and ...WTF?

I am normally phobic about needles (due to some incompetent nurse totally bothing an injection on me when I was 6). So, I go into the doctor's office this evening, and tell him to just make it fast. He laughs and tells me that he's the best at this. I start taking a deep breath, telling him to wait a seocnd. He laughs and says "why?". ...suddenly, he's says he's done. I FELT NASSING! [/failed attempt at an overdone soviet accent]. Seriously. It was like getting poked with a pen.

0_o What kind of advances into needle technology have appeared recently, or he IS the best at doing injections.

Aegix Drakan wrote:to needle technology have appeared recently, or he IS the best at doing injections.

Needles designed for piercing skin never hurt. =\ If only I had some when I did my various body piercings, because safety pins do hurt…

I FELT NASSING!

mighty_darknut wrote:Needles designed for piercing skin never hurt. =\

Hrm. I've never had a shot that felt worse than a tiny pinprick.

russadwan wrote:My parents, meanwhile, were making guesses on how long it would be before they heard me scream. Real comforting thought.

Lol'd. Sorry, Russ 😊

[strike]Last time I had a shot was 1997.[/strike] Oops, I forgot I had a shot two summers ago when I was really sick with Strep. Same point though. They don't really hurt too much. The penicillin feels weird going into your leg though.

I have been poked three times by needles during my vet work though. One time was a 35-gauge insulin needle*; tiny, yes, but it still stung like shit when it pierced the side of my ring finger next to the nail. The other two time,s were minor, and there was not piercing all the way through.

* It was this brand, too. They come in these baggies, and the caps come off sometimes, I guess, and it poked me through the bag in the back of the truck.

About two years ago at work, the engine I was using got hit by a tank car that came flying out of a track. I wasn't hurt as I was standing away from the engine at the time. My engineer, however, hurt his back, so I had to take a drug test as this is FRA policy when a collision involves personal injury.

When I get to the place where they take the blood, the tech doing it can't seem to find a vein. He pokes me twice in the crook of my left elbow, then twice in the right one, then goes back to the left. In all I was pierced 5 times to get two little vials of blood.

Of course, then I had to provide a urine sample. He hands me this little cup that will hold about 1-2 oz maybe and that's where he fucks up. He looked at it and asked, "Do you think you'll need a bigger cup?" I said yes and was handed one that held more along the lines of 10-11oz. I filled it to the very top and handed it back to him. The look on his face as he said, "Uh, I just need a little bit." was priceless. The lesson he learned, I hope, was not to poke me fucking five times with a needle. If you are though, be sure that you get the urine sample BEFORE.