Sure, 2x2 Link or "Big Link" may already be implemented, but there's several non-negligible unsolved animation bugs inherent in it. The sword swing is in the wrong place, the death animation goes wrong, and I really don't feel like re-jiggering my sideview code and the standard combo walkability code to prevent Big Link from smacking his head against a solid block (that's one tile above the ground) when walking left and right. (Already I have yet to deal with normal-sized Link walking sideways into a half-walkable combo in sideview...)
I don't know if any of the other developers are interested in solving these problems, but I haven't seen any immediate signs of it. So, in the interests of furthering a public ZC release, I think I'm going to disable the Big Link functionality, rendering it unavailable until, maybe, the post-2.5 betas.
Dark Nation,
Are you going to get ahold of this guy before he totally ruins Zelda Classic?
I've already completely stopped using the program, are you going to wait until everyone else does too?
Progress isn't worth a damn when you totally destroy the thing you supposedly set out to improve.
_L_ wrote:Sure, 2x2 Link or "Big Link" may already be implemented, but there's several non-negligible unsolved animation bugs inherent in it. The sword swing is in the wrong place, the death animation goes wrong, and I really don't feel like re-jiggering my sideview code and the standard combo walkability code to prevent Big Link from smacking his head against a solid block (that's one tile above the ground) when walking left and right. (Already I have yet to deal with normal-sized Link walking sideways into a half-walkable combo in sideview...)I don't know if any of the other developers are interested in solving these problems, but I haven't seen any immediate signs of it. So, in the interests of furthering a public ZC release, I think I'm going to disable the Big Link functionality, rendering it unavailable until, maybe, the post-2.5 betas.
[SIZE="7"]NO. BAD _L_. BAD. STOP IT.[/SIZE]
Remember what happened when you removed FFC Change combos?
Imagine that, but a hundred times worse. Then, imagine that it will cause your death at the hands of the entire community.
_L_ wrote:So, in the interests of furthering a public ZC release, I think I'm going to disable the Big Link functionality, rendering it unavailable until, maybe, the post-2.5 betas.
Oh please disable it right now, I beg you _L_ 😞
If it is causing so many problems, why not try to get 2.5 out of the way and then try to make it work?
And Freedom, this time I don't quite get you... _L_ here is willing to DISABLE a feature, not add one, which is very awesome... so I don't know where that anger came from. Let's not curse _L_ to the hell just yet, let him show us that a stable 2.5 will happen, and I believe it will happen if _L- starts to think like this more often. 😊
Freedom wrote:Dark Nation,Are you going to get ahold of this guy before he totally ruins Zelda Classic?
I've already completely stopped using the program, are you going to wait until everyone else does too?
Progress isn't worth a damn when you totally destroy the thing you supposedly set out to improve.
Freedom... Weren't you the person who wanted to remove the features that were causing bugs?
At least Peteo is sticking to his story.
I have big link working just fine in my quest, and it's BEEN working fine since the 2.11b10b.
The death sequence is the only problem with it, and it isn't an earth shattering problem to anyone.
Big Link worked fine until _L_ screwed it up.... JUST LIKE the ffc's worked fine until he screwed those up.
If he wants to remove something, let it be the bloat he added that doesn't work at all.
He's quick to keep his garbage and throw out Jman's, and Jman's is the stuff that works.
Freedom wrote:I have big link working just fine in my quest, and it's BEEN working fine since the 2.11b10b.
The death sequence is the only problem with it, and it isn't an earth shattering problem to anyone.Big Link worked fine until _L_ screwed it up.... JUST LIKE the ffc's worked fine until he screwed those up.
If he wants to remove something, let it be the bloat he added that doesn't work at all.
He's quick to keep his garbage and throw out Jman's, and Jman's is the stuff that works.
I agree with and endorse this statement.
Hm. Personally, I would actually like to see a poll fashioned from this topic.
While I certainly understand and happily acknowledge what Dart and Freedom are saying, that's just not the only side to it.
_L_ mentioned the sword being in the wrong place. In preserving 2x2 Link, you'd also have to provide an item sprite placement editor to properly fix that, as 2x2 Link presents a lot more freedom in working with Link. At the very least, a new quest rule would have to be in place. Guess what that means? New Content. Just what _L_ has been doing all along. A lot of his stuff is pretty stable too. Same goes for all of the other Devs. Bugs are fixed eventually, which means that their new implementations are fixed and working properly eventually, all in good time. Just like every other bug. Eventually, it'll be fixed. There just aren't enough developers to fix them all as quickly as everyone wants them to be fixed.
Agreed with Freedom and Dart Zaidyer.
If something is useable, but quite buggy, then the bugs need to be fixed, but if you don't want to fix the bugs at least leave the feature in, since it's still useable. I played Freedom's quest in which Big Link was present.
(<silent>but this all are still better than adding a new size of Link</silent>😉
ShadowTiger wrote:Hm. Personally, I would actually like to see a poll fashioned from this topic.While I certainly understand and happily acknowledge what Dart and Freedom are saying, that's just not the only side to it.
_L_ mentioned the sword being in the wrong place. In preserving 2x2 Link, you'd also have to provide an item sprite placement editor to properly fix that, as 2x2 Link presents a lot more freedom in working with Link. At the very least, a new quest rule would have to be in place. Guess what that means? New Content. Just what _L_ has been doing all along. A lot of his stuff is pretty stable too. Same goes for all of the other Devs. Bugs are fixed eventually, which means that their new implementations are fixed and working properly eventually, all in good time. Just like every other bug. Eventually, it'll be fixed. There just aren't enough developers to fix them all as quickly as everyone wants them to be fixed.
I have a REAL problem understanding why it is that SO FEW don't seem to understand that it is _L_'s additions that have created all these problems.
GO to the quest release forum, download Castle Haunt III and play it, then you will see that the engine ALONG WITH big link was working very well at that point in the 2.11b10b.
All these current bugs were NOT THERE, and the program could be used, now it is to the point it is totally to the point it CAN'T be used.
_L_ created that situation, now he wants to remove what did work, because with his additions it has stopped working.
What's wrong with that picture?
Heck no. I may not develop ZC anymore, but I'll be really upset if big Link is removed. Fix him, don't remove him.
Anyone who cites that the alignment of weapons in relation to Link is a problem that warrants the destruction of this advancement obviously has not bothered to consider that it can be solved by re-creating that weapon with an item script, and adjusting it as needed.
NO. FUCKING. WAY. Big Link is the single greatest thing to happen to ZC since layers, and layers surpass the status of sliced bread. Having bigger Links in quests nowdays is nearly a requirement. Besides that, I've put way too much work in my HF Link and another character to just revert back to 16x16 now
At the very least/minimal/minisucle/microscopic/subatomic, get rid of 2x2, but keep 1x2. But even that would be like cutting off somone's head to make them stay quiet
Freedom wrote:If he wants to remove something, let it be the bloat he added that doesn't work at all.He's quick to keep his garbage and throw out Jman's, and Jman's is the stuff that works.
I think we finally agree on something, Freedom
Do most of the problem result from the Big Link, or the Big Link's hit box? Even if have get rid of the Hit box, perhaps you can keep the 2x2 graphics so small Links can at least have some extra elbow space?
Please don't remove Big Link! I worked too hard on my game and my Link Tiles for this to just be removed. I am not using the Big Hit box, but I am using Big Link. I am just hoping you don't take this off. 😞
_L_ wrote:Sure, 2x2 Link or "Big Link" may already be implemented, but there's several non-negligible unsolved animation bugs inherent in it.
These bugs are non-fatal and therefore ancilliary. I will go through each one now and explain why it is not a problem.
The sword swing is in the wrong place,
Move your sword sprite higher. This isn't really a problem, I've been able to make fine looking Big Link sprites with a sword that appears in the right place. If you want to make an Adventure of Link quest, then implement a bigger hitbox. He has to be able to be hit in the head anyway.
the death animation goes wrong,
Add another sprite in Link's Tiles that controls death animation. That shouldn't be too hard, you've done it with other things.
and I really don't feel like re-jiggering my sideview code and the standard combo walkability code to prevent Big Link from smacking his head against a solid block (that's one tile above the ground) when walking left and right. (Already I have yet to deal with normal-sized Link walking sideways into a half-walkable combo in sideview...)
I don't quite follow what you're saying here. If there's a walkable combo (1 tile) and an unwalkable combo above it, then Link should be able to continue walking on the walkable combo even if the unwalkable combo above him is in the way. It doesn't matter if his sprite looks like he's moving through a wall, his hitbox is doing what it's supposed to.
If you want 2x2 Link to be able to hit his head on something like this, make a bigger hitbox option.
I don't know if any of the other developers are interested in solving these problems, but I haven't seen any immediate signs of it. So, in the interests of furthering a public ZC release, I think I'm going to disable the Big Link functionality, rendering it unavailable until, maybe, the post-2.5 betas.
Despite these bugs being in existance, they are easily worked around and they don't cause any crashes or the like. If you remove the 2x2 Link tiles, a lynch mob will come to kick down your door and I will lead the brigade.
Don't delete the feature. Don't even toggle it off. If people don't like Big Link's bugs, then they can choose not to use expanded tiles. It's already an option.
Geez, people, make up your mind. First you say "Stop with all the buggy features", than you say "Oh, wait, not if it's a feature I like, only ones I don't"
2x2 Link isn't a nesecarily "buggy" feature, but to get it to work properly requires a bit of work from what L said, and so I'm going to quote most of you and say. "Enough, our focus should be on bugfixes now!"
buggy animation alone is not a quest killing bug, if it don't crash ZC
then who the hell cares?, if Link looks a little off so what?
what is important is what crashes ZC and what causes other things
once working not to any longer. even if Link's animation is still off a bit
in 2.5 as long as it is stable, do you really think most people would
care if a few sprite related things are off a bit?
NO on removing Big Link!!!!!!
I have just finally finished my 1x2 Link after many months figuring
out the proper way to draw him, and damn if i'll go back to a
Midget Link, after waiting this long to use him, to me his hit box
isn't a problem, since I don't use it anyway.
oi... I agree with freedom... but I dn't curse, just wanna say, KEEP BIG LINK!!! I WILL BE UNHAPPY AS DoR IS GOING TO USE BIG "SERENA" TILES!!!
Geez folks... you all act like Big Link is the most important feature ever. Is everyone a graphics whore these days?
Ok, I take that one back... and I guess I kind of agree with everyone here then. If the feature is not horribly buggy as it seems not to be, then there's no point taking it out unless it affects other stuff than Big Link... *shrugs* ...and of course I don't want to see Freedom's quest cancelled (though I don't get it how it wouldnt survive without Big Link) I say it's a good idea to keep it in... as long as trying to fix it doesn't cause any more major problems, sigh! 😞
hmmm, a little HECTIC in this thread are we?
Lets do pros and cons
PROS
A Little Less buggy
_L_'s additions work a little more stable than before
No messed up animations
CONS
JUST ABOUT everyone will stop beta-testing.
A lot of quests won't work anymore without BIG LINK
Freedom's Castle Haunt 3 will be all for nothing.
All of the new cool tilesets will get post-poned
Anyone will rarely speak of ZC cause some have a mind of "This is the best thing ev'a'"
Quests will crash upon the Link Data
In order to keep Big Link, we'll need the following:
* A Quest Rule: Big Link Is 2 Combos Tall (such that in sideview, he can't walk into 1x1 passages, and interacts with combos, enemies and weapons at head-height.)
* A Quest Rule: Big Link Is 2 Combos Wide (such that in sideview, he can't fall through 1x1 gaps.)
Neither of the above are particularly appetising, given that the code currently assumes that Link's sideview collision rectangle is identical to his topdown collision rectangle. It's not impossible, but I, ah, have already drawn my line in the sand. (Of course, if some other perky developer feels that they have the ability to surmount such problems in a timely fashion, then I welcome their input.)
Also, we'll need:
* Bugfix for that death animation
* A way to reposition Link's weapons
This final point raises an important question: if Big Link swings his sword upward in sideview, where should it be drawn? (Should Big Link be able to swing his sword upward in sideview?) Obviously, we'll need another set of Link weapon positionings for sideview.
Dlbrooks33 wrote:CONS
JUST ABOUT everyone will stop beta-testing.
A lot of quests won't work anymore without BIG LINK
Freedom's Castle Haunt 3 will be all for nothing.
All of the new cool tilesets will get post-poned
None of these points seem particularly compelling. Big Link doesn't really add anything to ZC game mechanics except a larger sprite and a modified collision system. And Big Link was added in a 2.11
beta.
Quests will crash upon the Link Data
All I will be doing is removing the Big Link checkbox from the Link sprite options. That and stopping Big Link enabled quests from using Big Link.
Could there be an option for seprate sprite set and hit box in Side veiw?
<Edit> My appologies, I misread your post as if you intended to do all of that...
Tons of respect for you _L_ if you have the guts to disable Big Link from 2.5.
It may anger some people, but it is the right thing to do. I mean, no matter how cool of a feature it may be, it's just a graphical gimmick really...
But if you will listen to all of these people who "can't live without" a Big Link and trying to fix the Big Link causes even more problems for ZC, then all I can say is... er, well, I can now see how tough it is to be a developer having to wonder about these things and seeing people going nuts all over you... 😞
Why bother removing, it, I mean hell, it doesn't work right if you use it full sized, but it works fine if you are using the few extra pixels, so why take it out?
Really there is no point and you'll just piss people off. And I think you may have enough of that already.
what about those of us who use a 1X2 link??
we would have to redesign yet again, to fit him in a 2x2????
if so I spent way too much time for what???
I agree that it would be a terrible decision to disable the feature. Even if you leave it as is and don't "fix" it any further, at least leave the partially implemented feature there in case people want to use it. Naturally, though, it'd be best if you could work out all the bugs.
The thing is are you going to get rid of the Big Link all together, or are you going to get rid of the large hitbox?
The thing is I worked so hard on my Big Link. Jman convinced me to do the Big Link too because he wanted people to bug test it. It was working great for me and Freedom's Link too. I don't use the large hitbox but I based all of my custom characters in my game on the Large Link. So I really, really, really, really hope you stick with it. 😞
Do whatever makes sense to the dev team. That said, at least toss a bone to people by making things reverse compatible somehow. Like, older quests will still be allowed to use Big Link, but new versions of ZQuest will not let players make new quests that do so. Losing backwards compatability sucks.