Enemy Editor Discussion and Questions

Gee Whiz, I haven't graced these boards since

Last Activity: 01-21-2007 11:25 pm

TIME is money, and completely redoing progress you've made in a quest because some guy wants to feed his ego by having noobs tell him how cool he is for overstuffing an already unworkable program with bloat, is TIME.

What do you noobs know about spending a year or more on a quest only to have it destroyed by a guy who could care less what the people who USE the program think?

What do you noobs know about waiting SEVERAL YEARS for a stable release, and then being promised one last year, only to realize your quest has been destroyed and a stable release is STILL a year away IF IT EVER COMES?

Petoe needs to speak his mind, it's you noobs that need to STFU.
The truth is... Petoe has forgotten more about the program than you noobs have ever learned.

Defend "L" and it will ALWAYS be this way, and you will NEVER see a program worth wasting you time with.

Thank God I've found more worthwhile things to do with my time, and the more time I spend away from here, the clearer it becomes, that it will never change, and there will never be a Zelda Classic program that is really worthy of anyone investing any serious time in building quests with.

Petoe. Or Peteo. Depends what mood you're in.

You are one of the best quest makers and one of my "idols" when I was a... new bud at quest designing. I played through Mega Man and was in freaking awe when I saw some of your tricks. Same with IotW, same with Link to Tortuga, same with Hero of Dreams (though it's newer), etc, etc. There aren't too many quality quest makers out there. I was (for lack of a better word) devastated when Freedom left, and expect the same if you leave.

Now, being a fairly rational person, I can see it in your and Freedom's way, but also in _L_'s way. I agree that 2.5 will never be released with all these features, which leads to bugs that we may never predict; I agree that it's great that we have all these features.

According to _L_'s checklist, there aren't too many more things to add. And they seem to be easy (in a dev's POV) to implement. So I say let's allow the dev(s) to finish off with these features. Then, we can beta test the crap out of the programs so that we don't get another buggy release (cough, 2.10).

Would you look at that, Freedom is viewing this thread.

EDIT: Would you look at that, Freedom beat me to posting. 😃

EDIT 2:

Freedom wrote:What do you noobs know about waiting SEVERAL YEARS for a stable release, and then being promised one last year, only to realize your quest has been destroyed and a stable release is STILL a year away IF IT EVER COMES?

I felt the same way about Twilight Princess. Oh, I hope it isn't too early for brazen humor.

Freedom wrote:The truth is... Petoe has forgotten more about the program than you noobs have ever learned.

(I don't remember who said this, but...) Quoted for truth. That sum's it up perfectly. I feel that Zelda Classic is no longer classic.

Well I guess I don't have to post here anymore as Freedom's post said it all I have wanted to say...

Freedom is a respectable ZC veteran and more people should listen to him. he really knows what he is talking about.

And Pineconn, believe me, I don't wanna abandon ZC and all the great fans, ZC is my favorite hobby and I'm a creative person and feel ZC is the best way to express myself. But what can I do if this inanity will not stop? AS I said, LI will get released, that's a promise, but after that, I don't know what to do really... we'll see what _L_ does I guess...

Let me clarify that I am defending both sides of this issue. I want to get my money's worth. (despite the fact that ZC is free) I like that _L_ is adding the features I always wanted way back when, (over 2 years ago) I remember the days of the 184 player, (in fact I didn't use 2.10 after I found out how buggy it was) and about a year later, out comes b10. If you think of where it started bugwise, there have been a lot of bugfixes. You'd be surprised how little harm _L_ is actually doing. I like stability too, and you'd probably be amazed of how many bugs _L_ has fixed. (although DN probably fixed the most bugs out of all the devs, despite him being the oldest dev) _L_'s the second-newest dev. Every dev has made their own fair share of improvements and bugfixes. I can truly see 2.5 released by September 30. I can think of it as my birthday present. I really don't mind the fact that the updates and whatnot are taking so long because the devs must devote their free time to work on ZC.

I have to re-iterate:

[SIZE="5"]If you don't like where ZC is going, use an older version![/SIZE] There's no point in complaining about features you wont use. If you don't like it, dont use it! You can either deal with it or pointlessly whine. Or you can enjoy what you already have. If you bludgeon _L_ he'll just get unmotivated leading to an unfinished ZC.

I remember a while back when I said that I bet that nobody could say anything constructive. Well, everyone's attempts failed except mine, ST's, pikaguy500's, (I think) and even Revfan's. (I think)

Some philosopher (or someone) said that for every destructive criticism, you need [SIZE="5"]5[/SIZE] constructive criticisms. You better get to apologizing, guys!

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

beefster09 wrote:Let me clarify that I am defending both sides of this issue. I want to get my money's worth. (despite the fact that ZC is free) I like that _L_ is adding the features I always wanted way back when, (over 2 years ago) I remember the days of the 184 player, (in fact I didn't use 2.10 after I found out how buggy it was) and about a year later, out comes b10. If you think of where it started bugwise, there have been a lot of bugfixes. You'd be surprised how little harm _L_ is actually doing. I like stability too, and you'd probably be amazed of how many bugs _L_ has fixed. (although DN probably fixed the most bugs out of all the devs, despite him being the oldest dev) _L_'s the second-newest dev. Every dev has made their own fair share of improvements and bugfixes. I can truly see 2.5 released by September 30. I can think of it as my birthday present. I really don't mind the fact that the updates and whatnot are taking so long because the devs must devote their free time to work on ZC.

I have to re-iterate:

[SIZE="5"]If you don't like where ZC is going, use an older version![/SIZE] There's no point in complaining about features you wont use. If you don't like it, dont use it! You can either deal with it or pointlessly whine. Or you can enjoy what you already have. If you bludgeon _L_ he'll just get unmotivated leading to an unfinished ZC.

I remember a while back when I said that I bet that nobody could say anything constructive. Well, everyone's attempts failed except mine, ST's, pikaguy500's, (I think) and even Revfan's. (I think)

Some philosopher (or someone) said that for every destructive criticism, you need [SIZE="5"]5[/SIZE] constructive criticisms. You better get to apologizing, guys!

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

Yea well, ride that fence for all it's worth, you'll be coming down off of it soon enough.
This is the exact same discussion that was going when I left 3 months ago, and it will be the same again when I look back in 3 months from now.

IF they would release a stable bug free version, these conversations would NOT be taking place, the point is there ISN'T a version worth building a quest in.
192b182 the debug keys were in there.
192b183 the map crash
192b184 the boss enemies
2.10 the shop bug.
EVERY one of those versions gave players serious problems.
2.11b10b was the best of all of those up to that point, and it COULD have been fine tuned and released, instead they went back the other way and destroyed the quests that would work in that version.

NOBODY has ever complained about the progress, it's not having a stable version available that people have complained about.
GET a stable version, THEN add more with the builds, DON'T just keep adding bloat to something that doesn't work already.
Has common sense just left the building, or what?

beefster09 wrote:Let me clarify that I am defending both sides of this issue. I want to get my money's worth. (despite the fact that ZC is free) I like that _L_ is adding the features I always wanted way back when, (over 2 years ago) I remember the days of the 184 player, (in fact I didn't use 2.10 after I found out how buggy it was) and about a year later, out comes b10. If you think of where it started bugwise, there have been a lot of bugfixes. You'd be surprised how little harm _L_ is actually doing. I like stability too, and you'd probably be amazed of how many bugs _L_ has fixed. (although DN probably fixed the most bugs out of all the devs, despite him being the oldest dev) _L_'s the second-newest dev. Every dev has made their own fair share of improvements and bugfixes. I can truly see 2.5 released by September 30. I can think of it as my birthday present. I really don't mind the fact that the updates and whatnot are taking so long because the devs must devote their free time to work on ZC.

I have to re-iterate:

[SIZE="5"]If you don't like where ZC is going, use an older version![/SIZE] There's no point in complaining about features you wont use. If you don't like it, dont use it! You can either deal with it or pointlessly whine. Or you can enjoy what you already have. If you bludgeon _L_ he'll just get unmotivated leading to an unfinished ZC.

I remember a while back when I said that I bet that nobody could say anything constructive. Well, everyone's attempts failed except mine, ST's, pikaguy500's, (I think) and even Revfan's. (I think)

Some philosopher (or someone) said that for every destructive criticism, you need [SIZE="5"]5[/SIZE] constructive criticisms. You better get to apologizing, guys!

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

It's "pikaguy900". 😉

But yeah... Quoted for awesomeness.... That is... I'm kinda surprised anyone has the guts to go up against Freedom... I've seen what he's like....

The way I see it is this:

_L_ wants to combine certain enemy types together as one so people can have more customization and to make things a bit easier in making custom enemies, right? Yet isn't this what he said was gonna keep him from maintaining backwards-compatibility? If so, then here's the oh-so-obvious solution:

Get _L_ to return the enemy editor back to the way it was, when nearly every enemy type was seperate from the rest.

I don't really see the point in combining them all much. Also, I was under the impression that backwards-compatibility HAD to be maintained bewteen versions, whether full releases or not.

Now, uh... That's the against-_L_ part, now for the semi-against-Peteo part.

Here's a suggestion, Peteo & DFW (And I'm being totally honest here): If _L_ DOES go through with his ideas and breaks backwards-compatibility with older custom enemies and thus, breaks the custom enemies in LI, why not look for someone who wouldn't mind setting the enemies back up for you? Like, say... Me? I've got PLENTY of time on my hands, and I honestly wouldn't mind setting them back up for you if _L_ breaks them. 'Sides, it's the least I can do if I can't find some way to get _L_ to stop his madness. 😉

There's my two cents. I'm neutral here. I don't like that _L_ plans to break custom enemies from previous betas JUST so his plans can be finished, but yet, I think that if Peteo and DFW don't have the time to fix up all the enemies, they can always ask someone who DOES have the time (like me) to do all that for them. See? There's almost always a solution. 😊

(For the record, I'm neutral too. Luckily I didn't start making a quest since I have my 2.10 quest to finish.)

pikaguy900 wrote:
I've got PLENTY of time on my hands...

You are so lucky. 😉

Freedom wrote:2.10 the shop bug.

Oh, and you can't forget about the "Map->Secrets" glitch. How nasty that one is.

Petoe wrote:And Pineconn, believe me, I don't wanna abandon ZC and all the great fans, ZC is my favorite hobby and I'm a creative person and feel ZC is the best way to express myself. But what can I do if this inanity will not stop? AS I said, LI will get released, that's a promise, but after that, I don't know what to do really... we'll see what _L_ does I guess...

I'm glad that you'd be reluctant to... leave. And that LI will come out.

beefster09 wrote:Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

I have a feeling that he might be making some major changes to 2.5, either "good" or "bad."

(Hm, I suppose I could have organized that jumble of quotes... Mm, nah.)

Pineconn wrote:You are so lucky. 😉

For my response to this, I'll quote the terrible CD-i Zelda game, "The Faces of Evil".

You've GOT to be kidding.

I have plenty of time on my hands, but 'tis true, I have things to do, also... Mainly at the whim of my parents, though. >_>

All who vote for getting rid of _L_, say "pancakes"! 😛

(...I'm not gonna say it. I say, give the guy a few more chances...)

Well, then you're lucky you don't have my teachers. I have to make a bumper sticker, a T-shirt, a button, and a poster along with 8 100-word essays for a teacher. Due Tuesday. (Well, it was assigned a little bit ago.)

Argh, CD-i! You actually played a CD-i Zelda game?! ...I am very sorry. 😞

Yeah, devs actually are pretty under-appreciated. I think _L_ just got a little too carried away. No biiiig deal. (That last sentence may be controversial. Great, now I'm like Imus. 😛)

It's all about the tradeoff. Freedom, Petoe, and people like you: think about it. If we release 2.5 now we may have saved a few months, but than are you willing to wait the possibly 2 years or more for the next version of ZC, if the past is any experiance. I am just as impatiant as you, and that's why I want this, so that the next version with all the as of yet non-implemented features I want isn't years off.

I would like to resuggest at this point my idea of "1 feature" builds, where 2.6 has a feature or two and is completely stable, 2.7 has a few more, etc.

Back on topic, L, did you say most of the flags were going away, or obsoleting, or somthing. Only some of them(especially the "invulnerable from [dir]" ones) I was planning on using for making really cool custom bosses(Once we have larger enemies, of course)

Amaster42 wrote:It's all about the tradeoff. Freedom, Petoe, and people like you: think about it. If we release 2.5 now we may have saved a few months, but than are you willing to wait the possibly 2 years or more for the next version of ZC,

May have saved a few months? 😊 You gotta be kidding me with that comment, right? Unbeliveable...

And yes, if 2.5 would be released now, or would have been released around Christmas as it was supposed to, I would happily wait even more than 2 years for that next stable ZC. At least we would have a stable ZC, right now we don't have anything to be happy about. Why it is so hard for you non-quest develoeprs to understand it's much easier and desirable to work on a stable and bugfree environment than in a buggy and unstable one?

Even though some seem to understand me, it feels like I'm talking to a wall/walls here. Where's all the logic in your posts, guys?

Anyways, all this arguing is going nowhere. I've said all I have to say and now I'll just sit and watch what the develoeprs are gonna do. I'm hoping they would do the right thing, but that's most likely wishful thinking... ... ...

Though I may be considered to be quite gassy at the moment (metaphorically speaking), I have a feeling that 2.5 may be "finished" within a few months. (If anyone quotes me on that, I'll kill ya. :tongue: (Yeah, not really.) The more people that beta test, the sooner it will get "done."

Petoe wrote:Even though some seem to understand me, it feels like I'm talking to a wall/walls here. Where's all the logic in your posts, guys?

I've let ZQuest run, and it does not crash randomly like 2.10's editor does (to me). Now, I am curious to why you think 2.5 cannot be stable. Bugs? They can be sorted out. Too many features being added too quickly? As long as _L_ stays true to his words (view his checklist), this will stop. I would like to reiterate that I am not disagreeing with you; I'm very neutral.

This only applies if only you (Petoe) and DFW are the only ones actually working on Lost Isle:

Only 2 people (as far as I know) working on LI? That's like Nintendo putting 2 people to work on OoT. Sure it can be done but The frustrations will be greater because not only will everything take longer, but any little mishaps will be amplified greatly. I have a feeling that if from the beginning, you had say, 5-6 people total, your {insert synonym of "Complaints" here} would be less frequent and less desperate (for a stable ZC) sounding.

Now, I am neutral, but I'm trying to put some logic out there (although I'm probably failing at it). I am defending the program's (and the Devs too I guess) integrity. Remember the topic I made entitled "The Betas are slowly getting worse for some reason..."? Take a look at that thread, and then take a look at this one. It's the exact same thing: Someone is concerned with ZC so he makes a thread about it. Granted the circumstances of the creation of this thread were different, but in the end, it's still the same. Peteo came in here and said "Stop all this (feature adding/changing) madness!" and basically turned this topic into what I made.

I'll finish this post later cuz I gotta go.

How Can You Tell The Enemy ID. I Want To Make A Wizzrobe That Spawns One Of My Custom Enemys (Floor Master) But I Dont Know His ID Number.😱 :cry: :toast: :scared:

sps999 wrote:How Can You Tell The Enemy ID. I Want To Make A Wizzrobe That Spawns One Of My Custom Enemys (Floor Master) But I Dont Know His ID Number.😱 :cry: :toast: :scared:

Enemy ID's are contained within std.zh.

As crazy as _L_ is driving ZC, you guys have to remember that he's really the only diligent dev right now. Let him make signpost combos and call it ZC 2.40. I'm pretty happy with the features right now. I want a stable ZC just as much as anyone else.

_L_, just for the sake of pleasing everyone, finish signpost combos and call it a day. AND DON'T FORGET TO FIX THE BUGS!

_L_, how many bugs have you fixed?
I choose to be on both sides by defending _L_ and pleasing everyone at the same time. It's not impossible.

BTW: Has the custom Moldorm bug been fixed?

Thanks Luigi But What Does std.zh. And How Do You Tell What That Is,Sorry.

sps999 wrote:Thanks Luigi But What Does std.zh. And How Do You Tell What That Is,Sorry.

You only need std.zh if you intend to make a script.

majoras_wrath wrote:Only 2 people (as far as I know) working on LI? That's like Nintendo putting 2 people to work on OoT. Sure it can be done but The frustrations will be greater because not only will everything take longer, but any little mishaps will be amplified greatly. I have a feeling that if from the beginning, you had say, 5-6 people total, your {insert synonym of "Complaints" here} would be less frequent and less desperate (for a stable ZC) sounding.

Not really. At least over here at AGN, they've been pretty silent about it. I don't know about PureZC. And that's all I know.

well, they asked people to PM them if there interested in building/designing parts of LI and they ask for help in music and the credits, i wouldnt exactly call this being silent at AGN....

I never knew that. :shrug:

Luigi wrote:You only need std.zh if you intend to make a script.

So Youre Saying My Floor Master Cant Be Spawned By My Wizzrobe Unless I Start Scripting:shakeno:

I think it could actually work. :shrug: I mean down to the very last drop, except for one thing. I'm not sure if you can combine the properties of the zooming (Towards you) Rope, and the Grabbing/Holding Like Like in one enemies. It may be either-or. (Though Do NOT quote me on that. It's only a hunch. I hope to dear god that I'm wrong, because _L_ is a bloody genius with his work.)

To make a Summoner enemy summon things, place the enemies he'll summon on the layers of that screen. That's how it works by default now, at least. Then, you can create a new floormaster enemy which splits into a different enemy. (Place their ID in the misc box, as directed in one of the pinned threads up there.) Then give that little floormaster enemy all the properties you'd like, and you're set.

Shadowtiger I Know How To Do All That But The Problem Is I Cant Find The ID Number. Does It Go By Like How You Can Have 255 Or Something Enemys So If I Use Say Custom Enemy Number 172 Will His ID Number Be 172? Terribly Sorry Im New At Builds.

This is actually a suggestion for a miscellaneous option for enemies. How bout when attacked by a it slows Link down. I looked at the sticky, and no "slows link down" option was in there.

Medusa, that zooms at you like a rope, but freezes your movement for a second or two like a redead.

ShadowTiger wrote:I think it could actually work. :shrug: I mean down to the very last drop, except for one thing. I'm not sure if you can combine the properties of the zooming (Towards you) Rope, and the Grabbing/Holding Like Like in one enemies. It may be either-or.

Well, look for yourself. A Walking Enemy can have both a Movement Pattern and a Touch Effect. The Rope's dashing is a Movement Pattern, and the Like Like's engulfing is a Touch Effect. (Admittedly I forgot to list the Like Like's engulfing until two minutes ago, but there it is.)

Fah-weeet.(Try saying this phoneticly, and it makes more sense.)
I'm telling you, add larger enemies, and we will usher in an era of custom bosses the likes of which the world has never seen. For that matter, we can now make Rupee-Likes from MC. Ohh, or Magic-Likes. What about Equip-Likes. How'd ya like to lose you're Roc's Feather and Master Sword. Umm...on second thought, that may not be such a good idea. L, does another Misc. Att. specify which equipment it engulfs? If not, hwo do Like-Likes go after only Shields?

I added an Edible flag to item data. Like Likes will try to remove all edible items when they devour you. (The precedent for this is in OoT, where both tunics and shields can be eaten.)