Toolie wrote:While I doubt your numbers, that's qualitatively pretty much how everything works in this country. A few people on either side of an issue have actual opinions based on thought, and the rest in the middle are too lazy to think it out for themselves, so they allow themselves to be manipulated by whoever is better at on those two opposite sides.
Nothing to do with communism. Consult a very introductory level political science class or text. Try even looking at voting statistics.
One third of registered voters are registered independent. Yet how many people vote it? Arguably, this group of independents is probably in the middle of the road. Yet none of them vote middle of the road. Because the people on either side are excellent on swaying votes toward their cause. Hence, the operation of a two party system. Couple that with massive voter apathy and a general misinformation or failure to know the depth of any current event by most people, you then get a recipe for what MacWeirdo said.
Toolie wrote:Nothing to do with communism. Consult a very introductory level political science class or text. Try even looking at voting statistics.One third of registered voters are registered independent. Yet how many people vote it? Arguably, this group of independents is probably in the middle of the road. Yet none of them vote middle of the road. Because the people on either side are excellent on swaying votes toward their cause. Hence, the operation of a two party system. Couple that with massive voter apathy and a general misinformation or failure to know the depth of any current event by most people, you then get a recipe for what MacWeirdo said.
WHICH IS THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT PUFF DADDY SAYS. VOTE OR DIE
Toolie wrote:Well, I suppose if everyone doesn't include me and a lot of people I know.
Well you're wrong. Everyone makes racial judgements, even if you're in denial of it. Being "colorblind" counts as a racial judgement too, fyi. You can't really change it, but you can recognize it.
It sounds like you just got into college.
You're trying to draw an irrelevant conclusion, and you're not going to get far. While it is a fact that people naturally posess behaviors of ingrouping bias and frequently construct social stereotypes.
Blatant racism on the other hand - which is the topic of discussion - is a much different matter. While you have correctly pointed out that most people make spot judgments on others based on physical attributes, racism is a social construct - supported by memebers in society - that seeks to place rank on individuals based on these perceived distinctions.
From this system of rank, oppression begins. This is racism, and this is what is being discussed, and this is what I'm opposed to. You don't have to be in college to not have your head in your ass. If you want to contribute, I suggest you take yours out if you want to be taken seriously.
Anyway, rank could be anything. In this situation, the rank of "citizen" is being denied - primarily from people of Mexican descent. Now, I'm not debating views on immigration, as mine are rather non-mainstream and probably wouldn't have much support here. What I am discussing is the effectiveness of politicians in manipulating middle Americans into voting a way that benefits the politicians instead of the voters.
The arguments made for "tightening the border" are marginal, at best.
One which I will tackle now is hwo national security is repeatedly brought up; that the border is a method for potential terrorists to "infiltrate" our country and wreak havoc on the nation. Yet the politicians who are making this claim do little to prevent much higher risk threat, like container ships with nuclear weapons, access to materials for destructive weapons, or mention at all the exact same "risk" that exists with our much larger, much more porous border to the north with Canada (who actually has terrorists, as of late).
What really gives here? Well, it turns out, if you didn't know, that a lot of middle America is pretty intolerant to non-white non-American people who look/smell/think/dance differently than them. Now, the people in charge of this country, who are essentially very smart businessmen despite the clergy they drive to appear as, know exactly how to capitalize on this. By trying to invent marginal at best issues (others including flag-burning, terminal euthenasia, and last elections big winner: gay marraige) to appeal to middle America, they draw middle America to their side. In the case of immigration and gay marraige, they appeal to the intolerant racist views prevelant throughout middle America. With flag-burning and war, they appeal to blind patriotism (see: nationalism).
What's the point in rounding up all of these votes? Well to win, obviously. And once in power, it's to execute important, not-so-public legislation that greatly benefits business. And that's capitalism. America used to be what's called a mixed economy (remember high school economics?), but is now, by far, the worlds most capitalistic economy. Obviously, it's not doing to well for everyone, but working quite nicely for a select few. This however, is another topic....
You're talking about institutional racism as opposed to social racism. There are different academic definitions for this. Also, I'm aware you can be "opposed" to it, that doesn't mean you aren't a part of it. Once again, you have to recognize. Your posts pretty much reek of 1) white privilege 2) assuming that everyone has the same educational opportunities and experience as you, and therefore must come to the same conclusions or else they are stupid.
And yes, I'm already aware of the issue-pushing political methods going on right now, I don't need a wiki-lecture to understand it, or some kind of enlightening "lol, people are corrupt capitalists" tone. I live in Chicago and I'm aware of things, that should speak for itself. Personally I think our country is dealing with this horribly and should make citizenship a lot easier. But I also don't understand why it's automatically racist to think that say, it doesn't make sense that our country should happily comply with a huge illegal immigration influx because we're automatically responsible for another country's economy and quality of life being shitty. Sounds nice ideologically. Doesn't sound particularly fair to legal immigrants or anyone else. Nearly everyone I've talked to who doesn't live in the US doesn't even understand why this is an argument.
Lilith wrote:Your posts pretty much reek of 1) white privilege 2) assuming that everyone has the same educational opportunities and experience as you, and therefore must come to the same conclusions or else they are stupid.
Excuse me? I've worked my ass off more than you ever will. I've come from a very unpriveleged family in any sense of the word and work harder than your hauty self could understand by paying my own way through work to get through college - with a very difficult field of study at that.
By that definition, then yes, I agree that I assume that most people have the opportunity for education that I did - which is no advantage. And the conclusions I draw stem from a reality which you accept, namely the Republican party mobilizing its base through polarizing election year issues to render votes. I'm not discussing or forcing opinions, only facts.
And look up the definitions of institutional racism versus social racism. Or since you have an aversion to being "wiki-lectured", how about you just listen to what I'm telling you. You're saying everyone instinctively draws conclusions on people based on attributes like race, and I'm agreeing with you. However, that is completely irrelevant. Racism is different than subconsciously drawing conclusions on race. Racism is keeping those conclusions, and allowing injustice to happen based from them. While racism isn't being directly supported by the government (well, except for gays), it's definately being drawn upon to collect votes. And that is no way to move forward.
To be frank, the only person smelling of ungrateful privilege and snobbish assumptions is you, and the "lolzer internet" crowd that sniffs your ass can say all they want, but I'm not going to be belittled and not stand up. Don't take it personally.
Uhhhhh, I'm not trying belittle you at you at all and I could do without whatever personal hostility and assumptions you are now bringing up. I was explaining things from a political and social standpoint--that both you and I benefit off white privilege and such even if we are opposed to it, and it should be recognized when we're trying to diss things. Sorry if that's offensive, if you want to get personal then probably do it over IMs instead of inserting politics into it. You probably agree with what I'm saying but idk where your hostility is coming from so w/e.
I don't understand, Toolie, what's rascist about respecting the main language of a country? Are you saying it would be fine to go to Japan because someone hated the way America runs, go into a restauraunt and see a Japanese Only sign and then cry rascism and make a big fuss?
Not me, I'd try to at least pronounce what I wanted, and surely someone would help, because their culture is Japanese and I was moving into their world and have to play by their rules. You do know the guy didn't kick anyone out - that would be rascist - he only wanted them to say the name of what they wanted off the menu in English, that wouldn't be hard. He didn't even say perfect English.
Is the term: "When in Rome, do as the Romans" now a rascist phrase?
No, I'm not being sarcastic or anything, just trying to understand your POV...^^
I don't understand what's there not to understand? If you and a bunch of your American friends moved to the same part of Munich in Germany... it would take a long time for you to figure out German, right? You would sound like a moron, right? And if the area in Germany you were in had enough Americans in it, you guys just might think it was easier to communicate and express words with each other more efficiently in English than with German, right? And doing that, long enough, you might have some people that have little reason to learn German because they live in their own little American section in Munich. I don't understand what's to agree with? It's just something that happens. My question is, why do you hate it? Why do you require these people to change?
Geno's is in a very heavily populated immigrant area in South Philadelphia. I've been there many times and I really enjoy the diversity. Obviously it's gotten to the point - the bilingualism - that many people can understand both languages. Ever been to South Florida? Southern California? It's the same thing. Quebec? Same with French. What's wrong with the diversity? Why not make English AND Spanish the official languages of the country if we're going to do that at all? What's the resistance for? What's the point?
Because it's been English here forever, because most of our parents spoke only English, because there wasn't as much Spanish here before? Right? And now that it's here... well... we need to do something to fix that and keep everything the way it was. Right? How about embracing it? That's my POV.
Okay, thanks. Even if I did live in an "American" section of town or whatever, the fact is, I'm still in Germany, and if I left the section I'd still have to Speak German, so maybe I'd go check out a English>German dictionary or audiotapes at the library. 😊 The American populated library would probably have something...
You know, I'd have to agree with Successor on this one... Also being from a border town (didn't grow up there, but have spent the past few years of my life there), I don't find the English/Spanish thing to be that big of a deal. Maybe it's just me, but I've never really had much of a problem, and I'm terrible at foreign languages.
I do believe that Toolie has a point, too... This whole thing just smacks of racism, or at least xenophobia, but I think I already made that point (in that I can't see any actual harm coming from this). Anyway, to tell the truth, the primary experience I have with people being opposed to Spanish is the damn winter Texans who come down every year from the Midwest, and honestly, most of their complaining is just thinly veiled racism (they'll complain, not just about people speaking Spanish to them, but about people speaking Spanish to each other, even when the conversation has nothing to do with them), which makes me wonder what the hell they're doing in McAllen in the first place.
Alright, enough ranting for me, I'm sorely tempted to get into the whole racism debate, but I'm gonna stay out of it for now.
Lilith wrote:Breaking news: everyone's racist.I'm not racist - I just hate poor people. And women.
Why don't we start cracking open the Reservations and forcing all the Injuns to learn english.
The racism is that you are promoting the Idea that we FORCE all American citizens (naturalized, temporary, etc.) to learn english. Why? Is it such a strain on us? No. It's simply pinching an old twitching nerve too stubborn to die. "We are ROME! Do as we do or get the fuck out!"
This is not an issue! Don't fix what aint broke. This is big brother dancing to keep your attention away from things that matter. While your fitting over whether or not your neighbors speaks English, Your freedoms are being stolen, YOUR Constitution is being used as a bib, the economy is being ass raped, and, guess what, we're goin' 'round pissin' off the whole fucking worlds.
Get some sense, Sheeple!
SUCCESSOR wrote:This is big brother dancing to keep your attention away from things that matter.
Quoted for truth.
Listen, how many "issues" does this curent government bring up, that the media sensationalizes, and that Americans end up voting on which are absolutely irrelevant in comparison to the huge gaping problems that we have or have caused and aren't doing anything to fix?
Hundreds of billions of dollars war and thousands of deaths? Let's rile middle America up with the idea of two dudes getting married.
Massive corruption and government at all levels and parties in big business' pocket? Uh... let's see... how about we rile everyone up with Mexicans!
Secret illegal government programs and scandalous administrative decisions to reveal secret agents' identities over a poltical vendetta? Flag burning, propose a bill for that.
More worry about the complete failure of now two wars and an unwinnable "war on terror"? Raise the terror alert system just in time for Christmas.
The revamped Medicare is worthless and social security is crumbling apart, along with what's left of the economy for those of us not in the top 1% income bracket? Give it time, they'll talk about Terry Schiavo, abortion, assisted suicide, and probably more about gays.
The Bush administration reminds me of that group of asshole frat guys at a party. Because they're popular to a majority of ignorant people, they can say whatever to get out of something, and make the other guy look like an idiot, regardless if they're right or not. Congratulations other guy, you just got your shit beat by an asshole frat douche.