Alright. This question will also help us to plan out our overworld, as whatever theme this dungeon will have, it'll obviously tend to match up with the theme of the overworld that it's placed in. Thus, we need to decide what theme this first dungeon will be.
Anyone ever play Teilyr's CoD Demo, or Revenge 2? Hidden Duality? LinkTheMaster's Night Rod Demo? ... If you have, this dungeon will be very similar to those. It'll be a standard dungeon romp Dungeon, with the usual hunt for keys, the map, the compass, bombing walls, killing enemies to reveal secrets, solving puzzles, etc. The dungeon won't necessarily have a "Gimmick," such as raising or lowering water levels. It's supposed to be something attainable to the relatively new ZC user, while still teaching proper level design and puzzle schematics.
Thus: I ask you all, ... ... ... what's your favorite theme? 😃 Let's just get a big ball of opinions rolling, and we can sort them out when we begin to get a grasp of what people love to see. 😊
A basic Forest Temple/Earth Temple... that kind of stuff? 😊
So you're gonna build the quest in a way that eg the first level is a very simple, basic Zelda dungeon that shows newbies the most common and basic features of ZC. And then the next level starts concentrating more on some new and complex features... like multiple warping, combo cycling etc... and then there's one level which shows how to use catwalks, one dungeon which shows how to use the reset combo effectively (blue/red pole lowering/raising dng?) and so on?
At least in my opinion that would be a good way to go. Concentrate on a few specific tricks/features per level, dont scatter them all around the quest...
The first level, imo, should be something typical of the Zelda series. I like the forest temple idea most myself. Like Petoe said, I'd suggest we keep the tricks down to a minimum in the first dungeon (not much more than your basic bombable wall and locked doors), then get more advanced in later ones.
So, my vote is forest temple.
I agree, to a certain extent however. I think new features should be shown off right away. Perhaps if the bow & arrow is found in the first dungeon, there could be targets such as an eye that cycle, along with inherent flags, so you must hit the target when its at a certain stage in its cycle (such as when an eye is open and not closed)
You could also have treasure chests & treasure chests that appear as secrets when enemies are defeated or a trigger is set off. These are simple, yet not something that would have been feasible in ZC long ago.
Maybe you could have it as a "treasure chest palace", where every item in the dungeon (execpt items dropped by enemies) is in a Treasure Chest combo. Plus, the walls and doors could be shiny-looking, or maybe even look like you were inside a giant Treasure Chest!
pikaguy900 wrote:Maybe you could have it as a "treasure chest palace", where every item in the dungeon (execpt items dropped by enemies) is in a Treasure Chest combo. Plus, the walls and doors could be shiny-looking, or maybe even look like you were inside a giant Treasure Chest!
My vote goes to "giant treasure chest" dungeon. 😛 Although, is this going to be a LoZ dungeon, or a little more freeform than rectangle rooms? That's something we ought to decide before the complexity of the dungeon elements, I believe.
Rakki wrote:My vote goes to "giant treasure chest" dungeon. 😛 Although, is this going to be a LoZ dungeon, or a little more freeform than rectangle rooms? That's something we ought to decide before the complexity of the dungeon elements, I believe.
Good point. Although, I WOULD like to see a dungeon that not only looks like a Treasure Chest, but is also SHAPED like a Treasure chest. There could even be multiple floors, with the top floor maybe being the top of the Treasure Chest, which would be outside.
I think a forest level would be a good level to start out with. I will try to make suggestions and things for puzzles that fit into the theme of the level, and actually make the items useful. Anyways, my vote is for a forest level, just for tradation.
I really like the Treasure Dungeon idea. Forest temples are okay...but let's break tradition a little. Besides, I've never heard of that kind of dungeon, and it sounds like a good idea. Though, assuming the treasure box is square, they'll probably be either square rooms, or one large, open space with glittery floors and pillars, a ladder letting you get through the top through a hole or something.
algam86 wrote:I really like the Treasure Dungeon idea. Forest temples are okay...but let's break tradition a little. Besides, I've never heard of that kind of dungeon, and it sounds like a good idea. Though, assuming the treasure box is square, they'll probably be either square rooms, or one large, open space with glittery floors and pillars, a ladder letting you get through the top through a hole or something.
No, I didn't mean the shape of the rooms is the same as the shape of the Treasure Chest, I meant that the dungeon itself (when you look at the map) looks like a Treasure Chest.
Heh, I was throwing out an idea. I didn't exactly mean for it to be entirely agreeable with what you were saying...I was figuring 'why not actually try and make it look like a treasure chest' instead of just the map...
But then, it's your dungeon idea.
algam86 wrote:Heh, I was throwing out an idea. I didn't exactly mean for it to be entirely agreeable with what you were saying...I was figuring 'why not actually try and make it look like a treasure chest' instead of just the map...But then, it's your dungeon idea.
Oh, well, I'm sorry. It's a good idea, though, but here's a problem with it: Smaller rooms mean less room for puzzles and traps.
Forest Temple, it's a good way to start the quest I think...
pikaguy900 wrote:Oh, well, I'm sorry. It's a good idea, though, but here's a problem with it: Smaller rooms mean less room for puzzles and traps.
I think it's pushing it to stretch a puzzle over one screen on the first level anyway, so square rooms shouldn't really be a problem in that sense. Not that I'm saying we AREN'T going to push puzzles beyond one screen, because we ARE, but maybe that trick should be held over for level 2, the gimmick dungeon? Also, define what you mean by traps? 😛 I'm assuming you aren't talking about the enemy?
Guys. The first dungeon is a NORMAL Dungeon! No Gimmick. 😛 "Treasure chest dungeon" is a gimmick! 😛 XD
The theme of the dungeon won't have a special gimmick. No. Not at all. Visually, it can be anything we want, though it'd probably have to be at least half to 3/4 dungeon walls and such. That doesn't mean it can't be 1/4-1/3 forest though. Hell, I'd love for it to be a forest temple with TONS of gardens, trees, overhead leaves, ... ... fountains. 😉 <3 ... Nothing at all stopping us from doing that. Thing is, it just can't have a gimmick.
Examples of Themes:
- Castle - C-Dawg's Sabotage Dragoon's Moblin Castle. (I forget its name. :sweat: )
- Excavated Fire Temple - Teilyr's CoD Demo, Level 1.
- Forest Dungeon - DarkFlameWolf's Isle Of The Winds, L2.
Examples of Gimmicks:
- The entire dungeon changes when you flip a switch or step on a button. (C-Dawg's Sabotage Dragoon's Grand Kettle - Three levels of heat intensity, three different copies of the same dungeon.
- A "Before" and "After" dungeon - Petoe's MMDWR's Level 1, where you turn on the electricity, and your progress through the level changes dramatically.
- Raising and Lowering Water Levels: Shoelace's Hero Of Dreams L5 Demo.
The first dungeon of NeoFirst WILL be a "Theme" Dungeon. It will not have any gimmicks at all. The second dungeon of NeoFirst will be a Gimmick dungeon, and may or may not be themed.
Each individual room may have its own unique puzzle though. Anything we can do to show off ZC 2.11's capabilities, we can do. We just need to structure it. 😛
How about a desert dungeon? A number of rooms could have sand on the ground where you could use lots of sand-type enemies like Leevers and Lanmolas. Its a nice, simple theme that lets you do pretty much whatever you want with it.
Hmmm, Z1's Level 2, eh? That would be a perfect place to show off conveyers and the "Land Zora" trick. Maybe even some sandfalls you can force your way through? Like the Waterfall in Z1, except as a Walkthrough Wall instead? Sounds like a good theme for a standard-fare dungeon to me...
Britannianhero4 wrote:Guys. The first dungeon is a NORMAL Dungeon! No Gimmick. 😛 "Treasure chest dungeon" is a gimmick! 😛 XD
Not the way I was thinking, BH4. I was thinking of the rooms looking like treasure chests, because of the walls. Although, thinking back, I guess that'd be kind of bland, since the biggest part of the treasure chest is the lid, and it'd have to be open for you to be able to SEE what you're doing. 🙄
Rakki wrote:Not the way I was thinking, BH4. I was thinking of the rooms looking like treasure chests, because of the walls. Although, thinking back, I guess that'd be kind of bland, since the biggest part of the treasure chest is the lid, and it'd have to be open for you to be able to SEE what you're doing. 🙄
That would still be a gimmick. 😛 It simply wouldn't be at all "normal." It would involve thinking the phrase "Whoah, funky." throughout your treks. It'd still feel like a gimmick if it wasn't a normal type dungeon. I mean, what'd you put in it to make it seem like a treasure chest? Gears? 😛 (Actually, that would be a good idea, but how would it work? ... Oh, I know. But still, that's definitely a gimmick.)
Ideas need both graphical representation and practical representation. Can't have one without the other. Even then, it needs to fit in the right category.
Yeah, sorry. I kinda got carried away there about the treasure chest dungeon. I don't really know what a gimmick is, so.... Maybe that could be the second dungeon? Maybe the first could be one of the dungeons in ALttP, only without all the special feature it would have, like poundable moles, switches, rising/falling blocks, and treasure chests that appear magically.
An ice Dungeon would be fine. Maybe have the dungeon all ice up until some point where you need to find a key element in the dungeon to remove the ice and turn it to water to continue on and finish. Or even maybe the other way around. Water to ice.
Might make good use of the 256 color spectrum for the combos.
But I definately agree with trying to keep the rooms themselves from being square. Maybe put a little graphical change in the appearance in the begining and advance it further on in next levels.
Having an intro screen could easily give an example of how to input this sort of thing into a quest and might solve the questions about "How do I do an intro?"
Cloral wrote:How about a desert dungeon? A number of rooms could have sand on the ground where you could use lots of sand-type enemies like Leevers and Lanmolas. Its a nice, simple theme that lets you do pretty much whatever you want with it.
sounds interesting, but how about that theme with fire (heat of day) ice (dead of night), or the combination thereof? It might provide some interesting puzzles to solve... (sorry if it's a bit vague, but with being tired as heck, I can't think straight atm) :sweat:
rocksfan13 wrote:An ice Dungeon would be fine. Maybe have the dungeon all ice up until some point where you need to find a key element in the dungeon to remove the ice and turn it to water to continue on and finish. Or even maybe the other way around. Water to ice.
Sorry, but isn't that a Gimmick?
Changing from one to the other might be, but the dungeon as ice or water, or fire, or whatever wouldn't be. Maybe save it until later on in the game.
I didn't realize gimmicks included unique dungeon themes (like Treasure Chest). Non-gimmicks would probably be the basics, like standard dungeon walls, forest, desert, ice OR water (not both), fire, wind, dark, light, etc. Out of these ordinary themes, I think I like forest the best for the first dungeon. Perhaps the second could use water and ice, since we keep talking about the gimmick dungeon possibly using things like changing water levels (which I could CERTAINLY help with making, as I have a bunch of cool ideas floating around in my head).
Oh, and BH4, you remember how I said I thought I had some ideas for uses for the Room State Carryover? The reason I couldn't get them to work before was because I didn't know it ONLY activates on secrets being triggered. I think I can get at least some of my ideas to work now that I know HOW to use RSCs. If I can get at least one of them to work, I'll help out with the gimmicks in the quest. Provided that you like what I come up with, that is. 😛
Rakki wrote:I didn't realize gimmicks included unique dungeon themes (like Treasure Chest).
"Gimmick" is a fairly loose term. It encompasses a lot of things, but it also doesn't encompass many things that you'd think would be included. It's the overall effect and feel of the dungeon that ultimately determines what sort of dungeon we're exploring. Since the goal of the first dungeon here is a key-romp, wall-bombing, individual-puzzle-room-solving dungeon, we don't get a gimmick here. Nothing involving the whole dungeon in the puzzle.
Non-gimmicks would probably be the basics, like standard dungeon walls, forest, desert, ice OR water (not both),
I don't see why you can't have both water and ice in there. 😛
fire, wind, dark, light, etc. Out of these ordinary themes, I think I like forest the best for the first dungeon.[quote]Agreed. 😛 XD Then again, I'm somewhat of a nature boy, so I'm inclined to say such a thing. [quote]Perhaps the second could use water and ice, since we keep talking about the gimmick dungeon possibly using things like changing water levels (which I could CERTAINLY help with making, as I have a bunch of cool ideas floating around in my head).
Heh. A little mundane, but certainly possible. Adding to idea list. 😛
Oh, and BH4, you remember how I said I thought I had some ideas for uses for the Room State Carryover? The reason I couldn't get them to work before was because I didn't know it ONLY activates on secrets being triggered. I think I can get at least some of my ideas to work now that I know HOW to use RSCs. If I can get at least one of them to work, I'll help out with the gimmicks in the quest. Provided that you like what I come up with, that is. 😛
Any idea of any scale is good to have. 😊 Thank you very much. ^-^ Please, the more the merrier, Rakki!
Britannianhero4 wrote:"Gimmick" is a fairly loose term. It encompasses a lot of things, but it also doesn't encompass many things that you'd think would be included. It's the overall effect and feel of the dungeon that ultimately determines what sort of dungeon we're exploring. Since the goal of the first dungeon here is a key-romp, wall-bombing, individual-puzzle-room-solving dungeon, we don't get a gimmick here. Nothing involving the whole dungeon in the puzzle. I don't see why you can't have both water and ice in there. 😛
I think we're missing what each other is getting at here. ^_^; The only thing I was suggesting, as far as the treasure chest dungeon goes, is that the walls/floor of the dungeon make it LOOK like you're inside a bunch of treasure chests. The puzzles wouldn't have anything to do with treasure chests (unless there was an item IN a chest, in which case, that'd be all it was, lol). And yes, a water and ice dungeon could work, but I figured a dungeon with ice
melting to water or freezing to help you out in whatever way would be gimmicky. 😛
Edit: And apparently I DON'T know how to use RSCs... :sweat: Isn't there a thread on how to get them to work somewhere?
The only thing I was suggesting, as far as the treasure chest dungeon goes, is that the walls/floor of the dungeon make it LOOK like you're inside a bunch of treasure chests. The puzzles wouldn't have anything to do with treasure chests
Well, alright, but then my question is,
why? 😛
And melting a little bit of ice here and there isn't a gimmick if you do it on a screen-by-screen basis. That would be much more of a puzzle. Most "Gimmicks" would be done in a floor by floor basis, rather than an individual screen by screen basis. The whole dungeon could and would be affected at an entire time.
RSC's, if we're both thinking the same thing regarding what they are, ... are relatively simple to use, I suppose. On one screen, refer to (In the screen flags area.) a map and screen which would be affected in the same way you're affecting the present screen. If you trigger secrets on this screen, the secrets will be triggered on the screen you're referring to. If you want a "loop" of secrets triggered, i.e. that if you trigger secrets on one screen they're Triggered on ALL of the screens, then you'd make a loop of referrals, having one screen refer to the next, and back again so no screen refers to a screen that's not in the loop. (A Circle or Chain, if you will.) All you need to do there is have only one (Or the desired amount.) of screens with the ability to trigger secrets.
Okay, now correct me if I'm wrong... but RSCs only work on screens with permanent secrets, don't they? I was trying to do something with push blocks and block triggers, but it wouldn't work, but just a little while ago, I used a RSC on an overworld screen to carry the state of bombable tiles over to another screen and it did seem to work... So I guess, if I want to use these with block puzzles, I have to set the room flag "Treat As Cave?"