It's a good thing the world community helps us out so much!

Actually their sending 1400 National Guard troops today, 1400 more tomorrow, and 1400 more after that? They are also evacuating people to other neighboring states to try and get needy people out of there. It wasn't the city's ambulance that received sniper fire, it was Acadian Ambulance, a for-hire medical group. They just happened to be adding support to the Tulane Medical Center. The looting is obscene, and not to be racist but, why do the only videos of looting contain large grosses of blacks?

I do agree with you that food and water should have gotten there faster, look how fast we got it to Iraq after the shock and awe. Alot of the media is proclaiming that "that nation has forgotten them", and "when will these people get help", but in all seriousness, its not fair to compare this situation to Iraq especially when we had months to prepare for our relief efforts in Iraq. Even if we wanted to prepare for Katrina, we would have only had weeks or less to do so. We knew it was a Cat5 hurricane, but there is no telling what it would do when it hit, where it would hit, or even if it would weaken when it hit landfall before taking out any major structures. I can't imagine what those people are going through down there right now, but right now its still only three days after.

The Government is doing alot to help those people out down their, they are just getting a bad rap from the media right now. People need to stop going around talking about the Government like its a building that walks around and does shit. The Government is made up of people. Its on the american people as well as the Government to help the survivors out down there, not just the Government. The international community is really being piss poor with this one, especially with how many we've helped. The only country I have even heard of so far is Germany, and that was only them saying they'll help out...

So what have you done about it so far?

Solaris_Omega wrote:The looting is obscene, and not to be racist but, why do the only videos of looting contain large grosses of blacks?

Sounds like you guys don't hear that much

Let a tsunami hit poor starving people in India and the entire world (read: United States) mobilizes to help them,

The only country I have even heard of so far is Germany, and that was only them saying they'll help out...

i dunno if any of you listened to the interview by NO Mayor Ray Nagin, but he is so pissed. i highly suggest that you all listen to that interview.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/index.html
^ link to the vid is there

edit:
if anyone has a problem with the video, here is a transcript.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html

DarkPanther wrote:So what have you done about it so far?

Solaris Omega thats also about all they show up here in the news.
Don't think the rest of the world isn't offering help or ignore the people that
suffer from this tragedy .
Many countries already offered all kinds of help , but they can only sent it if Bush gives his okay thats the way it works.

well, i know that they have to get the ok from W to be let in to help, but what about the the local feds in the US? i see above that they are going to send in X amount of troops, but imo, that could have been done far earlier.

note:
unlike Sol, i dont actually have the resources to donate anything, and i wont be able to respond to a post like DP's.

The footage of black people running around in the flood waters carrying loot looks exactly like footage from Haiti. Weird stuff.

A lot of my anger is probably unfounded and ranting, but I'm going to go over some of the better things that have been asked.

First, Solaris_Omega is correct. Comparing the situation to Iraq is unfair because we had several months to prepare and relief efforts began almost immediately.

Second, I apologize that I offended people in other countries that are actually offering help. I did kind of go overboard with those statements and should have read a few news articles before making them.

And while the arrival of National Guardsmen in the city is a welcome and good move, why did it take 4 days to decide they needed it? Refugees are dying not just from poor living conditions but from crime inside their shelters; lawlessness is everywhere (evidenced by rampant looting and hospital evacuations hindered by sniper fire); the police are doing all they can but it is a few hundred police trying to keep a few thousand refugees in order. I could understand troop mobilization taking a few days, but why did it take so long to decide that they needed support?

I still think the response has been disappointing, though it seems to me perhaps things are changing for the better now that the media has sensationalized it.

Racism is rampant in the news. Here's a nice one about a white family innocently "finding" supplies while a criminal negro is totally looting stores. This is bullcrap and almost as embarrassing as our slow response to a national tragedy. Oh and DarkPanther I'll answer your question but to be fair you have to answer me back and let all of AGN know of your great humanitarian exploits.

Saturday night I cut my date short to help with a hurricane shelter at our church. My fiance's mother is the manager, so if that affects your opinion I'll let you know. I spent 2 hours setting up tables and chairs and bought an antenna out of pocket in a vain attempt to pick up a station of any use on the shelter's TV. I carried and wheeled other TVs all around the shelter trying to pick up the station, but never could get it. At least 1 hour of this work was after my fiance left, and I only left because there was nothing more to do.

Sunday I had to prepare myself for the hurricane, so I didn't spend much time at the shelter. I got to school and prepared my emergency supplies, then started to study.

For most of this week I haven't done much, I won't disclose any information about donations because I think it is personal business. I am doing a supply run this weekend so my father has food for the next week while he is sitting in our house to make sure no one breaks in, despite the fact that gas is scarce so I only have a prayer that the gas stations in Meridian aren't out of gas or I'll be stranded. Also I have 6 assignments due Tuesday that I am neglecting for this supply run and I plan to spend time in the shelter instead of working on them.

So what have you done, DP? Your question is invalid without an answer, for you cannot point an accusing finger if you are guilty of apathy.

I believe there's a charity concert being organised to raise money for places hit by Katrina. Here's a link. Support IS coming, Atma, whatever you may think.

The looters are all black because 70% of New Orleans is black, most of the poor population was black, and most of the rich people had the ability to get out.

I hate Bush-bashing, but I think Bush is being pretty dumb about it if not just for the delay. Thanks, now a ton of people think the US can't control their own teenage male snipers with guns, lol. Also...it's not exactly good to turn away help from other countries, if only for the cementing alliance factor and not the debt. ALSO, I read last night he's going on a Gulf Area "morality" tour or something, and I literally lol'd. Yeah, that'll reeeeally lift their spirits...

The fact that, as many people have pointed out, this storm was EASILY predictable and everyone knew about it before hand, yet the government reflex to it has been so slow and lax at this point, that really kills me. I can only hope they, as some have also pointed out, really crack down now...

I'm a little disturbed that the shoot-to-kill order was given against looters. I mean, aiming a gun at someone and telling them to drop something is enough. You don't need to kill people when it isn't necessary.

bigjoe wrote:I'm a little disturbed that the shoot-to-kill order was given against looters. I mean, aiming a gun at someone and telling them to drop something is enough. You don't need to kill people when it isn't necessary.

You can't imagine the situation there. There are armed gangs of criminals raping and murdering people, and firing at rescue personal. The army is going in with combat orders. Police snipers are killing people to keep them out of the police headquarters, which trucks of armed criminals (with Ak47's and shotguns) are trying to take over. The state convicts have escaped and taken hostages. It's a war zone.

What I don't get is how people knew the hurricane was coming and still stayed in their homes. I mean, the city is [b]below[/] sea level. How can you not think that Cat5 hurricane will not affect your home?

Just because your poor doesn't mean you couldn't get out of the city in time. They knew a hurricane, yet they stayed there. Even if you're not able to afford it, you do every thing you can to get the money. You're going to lose more money if you stay.

Solaris_Omega wrote:I do agree with you that food and water should have gotten there faster, look how fast we got it to Iraq after the shock and awe. Alot of the media is proclaiming that "that nation has forgotten them", and "when will these people get help", but in all seriousness, its not fair to compare this situation to Iraq especially when we had months to prepare for our relief efforts in Iraq. Even if we wanted to prepare for Katrina, we would have only had weeks or less to do so. We knew it was a Cat5 hurricane, but there is no telling what it would do when it hit, where it would hit, or even if it would weaken when it hit landfall before taking out any major structures. I can't imagine what those people are going through down there right now, but right now its still only three days after.

You are right. They didn't have several months. They had years. Pretty much everyone knew that a hurricane could do this to New Orlean yet there was no plan or, if there was one, it was followed through horribly.

Beldaran wrote:You can't imagine the situation there. There are armed gangs of criminals raping and murdering people, and firing at rescue personal. The army is going in with combat orders. Police snipers are killing people to keep them out of the police headquarters, which trucks of armed criminals (with Ak47's and shotguns) are trying to take over. The state convicts have escaped and taken hostages. It's a war zone.

So you're basically saying that we have another American civil war on our hands? I thought I'd never see the day.... 😞

Spiffy Enigma wrote:So you're basically saying that we have another American civil war on our hands?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that there is civil unrest and lawlessness in Louisiana brought on by a criminal and destructive element and desperate, uncontrollable circumstances.

If you want to compare the hurricane disaster area to the american civil war, you might want to roll your window down first, that way it will be easier to throw logic out. :tongue:

This journal has become the Survival of New Orleans blog. In less perilous times it was simply a blog for me to talk smack and chat with friends. Now this journal exists to share firsthand experience of the disaster and its aftermath with anyone interested.

I dont even know what to type about this disaster. I'm just 😡 and :angry: and ...ARGHH!!

Archibaldo wrote:What I don't get is how people knew the hurricane was coming and still stayed in their homes. I mean, the city is [b]below[/] sea level. How can you not think that Cat5 hurricane will not affect your home?

Just because your poor doesn't mean you couldn't get out of the city in time. They knew a hurricane, yet they stayed there. Even if you're not able to afford it, you do every thing you can to get the money. You're going to lose more money if you stay.

They did not know exactly the path of the hurricane. In the past New Orleans has been very lucky. People in the past were able to stay through horrible storms. They probably thought it wouldn't be that bad. And yes if you are poor it DOES mean you can't get out in time. Gasoline for your car isn't cheap, and ofcourse, you have to have that car first. And I doubt walking/running away was an option either.

And the poor people are doing everything they can now, "looting" places for food and water.

Anyways, isn't it nice how politicians like to hold news confrences and such to blow eachother on what a great job they are supposively doing?

By Friday, offers had been received from Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, New Zealand, Guatemala, Paraguay, Belgium, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Italy, Guyana, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Austria, Lithuania, Spain, Dominica, Norway, Cuba and Bahamas.
Quote from Australia "The United States is so often at the forefront of international aid efforts to help less fortunate nations."

I understand that survival instinct might kick in and people would secure food for their family. I have no moral problem with people starving looting food and water. It�s looting other commodities, such as electronics, that smacks of opportunism, not desperation. Stealing stuff like TV sets, electronic gadgets, compact discs, etc. is just a waste of time. It won't help you survive, and ultimately it will just weigh you down. Besides, what do you intend to do with it? You can't stay in the city and you can't take it with you. If you're going to make the excuse of survival you must also use the hierarchy of basics needs of survival: Food-Clothing-Shelter. Nowhere does it say Rolex watches, Microwave ovens, raping a 12 year old, robbing someone at gun point, breaking an aquarium, shooting innocent people, etc.

I think there are several reasons why some people stayed behind:
1) Belief that the hurricane wouldn't be as bad as predicted
2) Poor people who don't have the means to leave, nor a place to go
3) Elderly people and/or sick people, same as #2
4) Criminals that saw this disaster as an opportunity
5) People who elected to stay behind to guard their property against #4

While I do blame the Feds for not reacting sooner, I think the governors of New Orleans and LA itself are most to blame, for not planning something better, so a mass rescue effort would not have to happen. Here the mayor is screaming at the Feds, but what did he do to prepare his people? "Hey, a hurricane is coming, you are on your own to get out. Good luck! " (Think Giuliani.) How can you not have a serious plan living in a soup bowl, knowing every single hurricane season it could happen?
On the other hand, the government isn't perfect by any stretch, but realize that quite a bit was done to prepare. The evacuation notice was granted in plenty of time and the National Guard was pre-positioned to help. There were over 4000 soldiers in the superdome before the storm hit. (To give you an idea of how many that really is, the entire Virginia Army National Guard is only about 7700 soldiers.) Given the war the Guard is stretched pretty thin. Coast Guard units had to pull out to protect their boats, etc, until the storm passed and that delayed help. The Navy had to stay away for the same reasons, although ships are moving to the gulf now. I know some FEMA volunteers and all were put on standby prior to the storm. They have to deploy people in a sustainable fashion, meaning they can't send the whole kit and caboodle instantly because they need to be able to sustain the aid over several months.

The bottom line is that we had a city that sits 6+ feet below sea level hit by a category 5 hurricane. It is going to suck no matter how you slice it.

the moral of the story.. dont build a city in such a dumb place. -6 would be fine if it were in the middle of the continent.. but on the coast? wtf were they thinking...

and if people WERENT being selfish the poor and elderly wouldnt have had any problem leaving town, but because people only care for themselves and their immediate family for the most part, the poor and elderly were left behind, likely in favour of material goods.

Mottzilla wrote:They did not know exactly the path of the hurricane. In the past New Orleans has been very lucky. People in the past were able to stay through horrible storms. They probably thought it wouldn't be that bad. And yes if you are poor it DOES mean you can't get out in time. Gasoline for your car isn't cheap, and ofcourse, you have to have that car first. And I doubt walking/running away was an option either.

And the poor people are doing everything they can now, "looting" places for food and water.

Anyways, isn't it nice how politicians like to hold news confrences and such to blow eachother on what a great job they are supposively doing?

Any body could have gotten out of the city. You sell every thing you own (It's going to be destroyed or stolen any way), buy a bus ticket, and live in a cheap ass motel. Sure you may be in debt up to your eye balls, but atleast you won't be dead/stranded in a super dome.

Oh yes, since we all know how appealing an option that is if you do it every time a hurricane occurs. By the time you know that the hurricane is deadly enough to destroy the city (Read: 10 minutes prior) its way too late. And a poor person can't afford to leave town every time a hurricane starts.

Buckle your seat belt because I have a lot to say.

First I have completely and entirely changed my original opinion. C. Ray Nagin is a faggot and the only reason he is not entirely to blame is because of the territorial behavior of LA's governor Kathleen Blanco. Thousands have died because they wanted to handle the situation all by themselves and now they are blaming the federal government in an attempt to distract the public away from the root cause.

"Hold on, Atma, you were gung-ho against the feds the other day!" I hear you say. However, I did leave this opening in my stance:

I could understand troop mobilization taking a few days, but why did it take so long to decide that they needed support?

Ray Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order for low-lying areas of New Orleans a few days before the mandatory evacuation of the entire city. Towards the end of the Q&A session, a reporter noted that a full evacuation of the city would require 72 hours and asked Nagin if a full evacuation was planned. Nagin's responded that a full evacuation was being considered but would be announced after more thought.

The evacuation that would require 72 hours was officially announced Sunday. This fell somewhat short of the 72-hour evacuation timeframe, so it is not surprising that the city was not completely evacuated. Of course, this little tidbit is not making big news because Nagin is now being oppressed by the man so he is sure to get re-elected because he's a hero even though his poor decision cost many people their lives.

Additionally, it is a mayor's job to keep the people under control. Instead, Nagin is acting as a catalyst, generating anger and unrest among citizens that are already disgruntled. This is dangerous and has motivated several attacks on federal relief forces that have ended in civilian casualties. However, by referencing The Man's constant oppression of black people (the hurricane was white and so were the levees, coincidence?) Nagin appeals to the majority population of New Orleans and secures himself another term as mayor.

Anyway, this only negates Nagin's anger as a force in my point. I still wanted to know why National Guardsmen were deployed so late. I stumbled upon this article and found my answer. National Guardsmen were not deployed because Kathleen Blanco did not want to give the federal government authority over New Orleans.

See, there is a process that has to be followed. The National Guard is under federal control and the federal government cannot send them until a state requests the National Guard to run things. When the National Guard comes to an emergency area, they get jurisdiction to do what is needed in the area, and the state government loses control for the duration of their stay. According to the article, Bush sent Blanco a proposal asking her to allow the federal government to take over the evacuation of New Orleans. Blanco and crew rejected the proposal because they felt like it was a "federal declaration of martial law" and a source claims the feeling was "if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals".

Additionally, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff noted that federal assets were deployed slowly "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."

This was a states' rights issue, which has been important throughout our nation's history and the cause of some of our largest tragedies. We fought a civil war over states' rights and now we've left people to starve and drown over states' rights.

FEMA Director Michael D. Brown has been under a lot of fire, but his statement makes a lot of sense given the poor judgement of Nagin and the territorial behavior of Blanco:

the mayor can order an evacuation and try to evacuate the city, but if the mayor does not have the resources to get the poor, elderly, the disabled, those who cannot, out, or if he does not even have police capacity to enforce the mandatory evacuation, to make people leave, then you end up with the kind of situation we have right now in New Orleans

So, in light of information I did not have due to insufficient research at the time of my post, I have decided the evil here was perpetrated by Nagin and Blanco and both of them are unfit for leadership positions.

Additionally, I found a few good points that explain why people remained in New Orleans despite the evacuation notice:

1. Not enough time/resources to enforce the evacuation
Nagin waited until it was too late and doomed the people he was responsible for protecting.

2. Apathy towards storms
A poster on another forum who grew up in New Orleans pointed out that the city is practically floating on water. He mentioned that whenever it would rain even half an inch, his street would flood and his friends would always swim in the street when a thunderstorm came. So any storm where severe flooding was supposed to be an issue were just business as usual for many residents. For the past 20 years or so, there have been so many "big ones" that just missed New Orleans that people grew tired of evacuating and decided that it would never happen to them. Also remember, had the levee not broken New Orleans would have weathered the storm with severe damage but conditions would not have been even close to the disaster after the levees were breached.

3. Poverty
Let's assume you are a member of the majority of the city, the impoverished masses that spend 98%-100% of their monthly wages on paying the bills. You have $30 to your name and no credit. You can't afford to drive away. If you purchase a Greyhound ticket, you won't have money for a hotel room. If you walk to another city, you'll have enough to stay in a cheap hotel for one night and nothing to buy food or water with. You have no choice but to stay in your house and pray for the best.

4. Darwin at work
(The above was the idealistic view of New Orleans' impoverished masses. This is the cynical view.)
The government doesn't give you enough on your check every week to buy but one carton of Newports and a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon. You can't get a job because you are black. If the government would just give you $25/hour you'd ride on a garbage truck but they don't believe in paying black people more than minimum wage. You can't buy a bus ticket or a hotel room because then you couldn't get cigarettes or beer. Plus, if the storm hits you know the police won't be able to keep up, so there's a good chance you can get more beer for free. The correct course of action is obvious.

So it does kind of make sense why many people stayed. Some people had no choice but to weather the storm.

Now, on to the "shoot-to-kill" order on looters. There is a difference between "gathering supplies for survival" and "looting". When a group of people emerges from a store carrying loaves of bread and bottles of water, I can guarantee you the response of the guardsmen will be different than when a team of people emerges with a TV. Many of the people that are still inside of New Orleans are there because looting is a great way to supplement their income. Food, water, and clothing are items that I can't blame someone for taking. Electronics, alcohol, and jewelry are items that no one there has a need for.

Here is an example of a man that should be shot:

Next to Freeman, Kenny Lason, 45, a dishwasher at Pat O'Brien's, a French Quarter restaurant famous for its signature "Hurricane" cocktail, took a long slurp out of a bottle of Korbel extra dry champagne. He broke a store window to get it, and he is not ashamed. "They wasn't giving us nothing," he said. "You got to live off the land."

Still, why do people deserve to be shot? As mentioned, crime in the city is pretty bad right now. Gangs are forming and firing on the people responsible for rebuilding New Orleans. I will not shed a single tear over the death of any of these criminals. The Superdome is emptied and anyone seeking help can get it by approaching authorities and asking for it. There is no legitimate reason for able-bodied individuals to remain in the city. Instead, the remainder of the populace is trying to start their own city within the ruins. This is unacceptable and I hope they enjoy their delusions that they will chase the National Guard out of New Orleans right up until bullets tear through their hearts.

Now, I have some choice words about the behaviors of people in areas NOT affected by the hurricane, but that will be another thread.

DarkPanther, you still haven't responded to me. What have you done to help hurricane victims? It would legitimize your troll post and simultaneously make me look bad if you would detail your hours of service for all of us.

*edit*

Also I am glad to hear about other countries helping out; I wish it were more prominent in the news because they deserve recognition for every dime they send.

On the subject of bad media towards black people, not all of it has been bad. This one black kid commandeered a school bus in order to save a bunch of people regardless of their ethnic background. Should be a lesson to us all.

I wouldnt be surprised if he'll have to do time, or at least community service, for what he did, knowing that he committed grand theft auto, but it was still a commendable act. He deserves a medal.

However, by referencing The Man's constant oppression of black people (the hurricane was white and so were the levees, coincidence?) Nagin appeals to the majority population of New Orleans and secures himself another term as mayor.

I have decided the evil here was perpetrated by Nagin and Blanco and both of them are unfit for leadership positions.

bigjoe wrote:In fact, it would be interesting to see posts about just that. Nows your chance to diss the hell out of the people you hate and get away with it, while still being politically correct!

OK bigjoe, since Ray Nagin is a model mayor, I took the liberty of poking around a few sites, and here's a few quotes that show his nature.

Here's Nagin showing his concern for the citizens of New Orleans😞Source)

According to the mayor, Black Hawk helicopters were scheduled to pick up and drop massive 3,000-pound sandbags in the 17th Street Canal breach, but were diverted on rescue missions. Nagin said neglecting to fix the problem has set the city behind by at least a month.

"I had laid out like an eight-week to ten-week timeline where we could get the city back in semblance of order. It's probably been pushed back another four weeks as a result of this," Nagin said.

"That four weeks is going to stop all commerce in the city of New Orleans. It also impacts the nation, because no domestic oil production will happen in southeast Louisiana."

Here's another shining example of Nagin's concern for the citizens😞Source)

Mayor Ray Nagin ordered 1,500 police officers to leave their search-and-rescue mission Wednesday night and return to the streets of the beleaguered city to stop looting that has turned increasingly hostile.

"The people of our city are holding on by a thread," Mayor Ray Nagin warned in a statement to CNN. "Time has run out. Can we survive another night? And who can we depend on? Only God knows."

I'm sorry, but Nagin is a two-faced snake and that is that. It has nothing to do with him being black or Blanco being a woman.

Pulling the race card is stupid BigJoe, let's go through the proof you'd need for that statement.

H1. Nagin is black.
H2. Blanco is a woman.
H3. Blanco and Nagin made mistakes.
H4. It is wrong to blame someone for a mistake if they are incompetent.
H5. Blanco is incompetent.
H6. Nagin is incompetent.

Now, at this point I'll commit a logical fallacy if I continue, which is precisely what happens when you claim Blanco and Nagin are taking fire because of racist/sexist sentiment. You are claiming that they are not to blame because of race or gender, which implicitly implies that their race or gender is known for making mistakes and should not be blamed. This is subliminally racist in itself.

Sorry, but Nagin and Blanco are incompetent independent of their race/gender.

Pulling the race card is stupid BigJoe, let's go through the proof you'd need for that statement.