Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

[Nightmare]

It'd be nice if some common scripts were made available, but didn't break the game (like example, unblockable fireballs on Aquamentus, blockable fireballs on Gohma, etc. etc.), as well as example quests for newcomers.

-James

[Gleeok]

Are you implying scripting cannot be used for scripted enemies and bosses? I mean nothing outrageous but most the built in bosses are pretty lame.

Where does it say that you have to use the default bosses? Even the 4th quest had beefed up bosses.

For "custom" enemies, I think I am not alone when I say I am a little hesitant to allow completely scripted enemies. The Enemy Editor already can augment enemies in tons of different ways without scripts. As much as ghost.zh is really cool, it might be a bit much for this particular contest. Although if used very, very judiciously, and in the classic NES context it could be fine also. Will people actually use it for good instead of evil? Probably not. I don't even think neofirst had any scripted normal enemies in it.
That said, there is no rule that does not allow scripts and enemies to be used simultaneously. (As you can probably tell by now there are already many loopholes in play simply by allowing scripts.)

Go ahead and try to make a case for scripted enemies in a classic 5th quest contest built from a tool designed to edit just about every aspect of LOZ, and then try to make it sound not ridiculous!

[edit] appended to the script and enemy sections.

It'd be nice if some common scripts were made available, but didn't break the game (like example, unblockable fireballs on Aquamentus, blockable fireballs on Gohma, etc. etc.), as well as example quests for newcomers.

-James

Good point. Example 1st and 2nd should be made available.
Script request would be your best bet. (Someone will usually help you out, especially for simple scripts.)

[SUCCESSOR]

Where does it say that you have to use the default bosses? Even the 4th quest had beefed up bosses.

...Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss...

[Orithan]

What Gleeok was meaning was more like a non-scripted boss. Who said you can't modify the existing bosses?

[ctrl-alt-delete]

To access 5th quest, instead of Ganon or Zelda you type DarkNation or DN, obviously.

[aturtledoesbite]

Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)

I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.

I'm not necessarily saying to get rid of the rule, though. Actually, if I were a participant (I won't be, because Zquest map creation goes over my head), I would use this as the opportunity to make a new enemy species or two. An idea I had was for an enemy that had DR/Wand in the same way Pols Voice have DR/Arrow. Put Link's items through their paces.

Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.

...Huh. I could've sworn there were a lot more. Ah well, if I think of any others, I'll either edit this or make a new post. In any case, included items should be playtested carefully to make sure they don't trivialize the quest.

I'd like to conclude this with one thing that I should not really have to mention, but given the stories I've heard outside of the ZC community about the average quest, I'll mention it anyway. Play time is not an accurate measurement of fun.

(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

[SUCCESSOR]

Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)

Of course it is. Thanks for posting.

I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.

Obviously forcing requirements like that doesn't guarantee quality results. The quest maker will have to remember that he will be judged on how well he makes use of it. Also the submission can be rejected if the "new" enemies aren't sufficiently different from the original. I personally don't see a darknut with more HP as a new enemy. We can only hope that the contest will inspire people to put in thought and effort and that rejected quests will be resubmitted with improvement.

Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.

This is also a concern but entries will be judged on their difficulty. If an item makes the quest too easy it will likely be rejected.

(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

It's "magic."

[Glenn the Great]

Great discussion going on.

All I have to say at this point is to be conservative/flexible with advanced features that are "required". What comes to mind are all those great Nintendo DS games that were ruined because the developers thought they had to squeeze in every gimmick. The other custom quest contest should be the one that puts a stronger emphasis on new features.

"Hmm, this game is nice and all, good gameplay, nice graphics, but we noticed that you never have the player shout into the microphone. Lot of missed opportunity there... go see what you can do with that and come show me again later."

[CJC]

Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?




I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

[SUCCESSOR]

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

I couldn't tell you. The 4 quests are protected by a magical force known only to the Devs. When they join rings and say a key phrase only then can the quests be opened.

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?

There are no rules against it currently. Personally I don't think the flippers would ruin the NES experience.