Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

[SUCCESSOR]

How can one judge how hard is too hard?

And let me step back and say this "taking enemies out of the equation," as enemies are often artificially pumped up as a crutch (which I do not intend to do).
At what point is a puzzle "too hard"?

What if, at some advanced point in a quest, you are in a room, where you must bomb to get out, but for some reason the player ran out of bombs? Is that bad design?
I mean, at some point, isn't is just *expected* that you have stuff on hand that is needed?

Testers

A puzzle is too hard or badly designed when it stalls the flow of gameplay.

Yes, that is bad design. Bombs run out so you always have to deal with the possibility that the player doesn't have any.

[Gleeok]

8 blue wizzrobes in LV1 is probably "too hard" if you have to kill them all to get a key, unless it's not necessary or an optional room. It's a hard thing to gauge since good players will probably slice up the quest no problem, and crappy players will complain it's "too hard".

Bomb conservation sucks (it's no fun not being able to use items) so just give some out in nearby rooms, or if you can get stuck at all, make it a walk-through wall.

[Imzogelmo]

Well, analyzing my paths, I've been careful to leave a way out, except in this one place where you have to bomb to get out (due to a one-way path going in). I have 2 nearby open rooms with enemies that frequently drop bombs, and then a room just before the one-way shutter that gives you a bomb prize. Even so, I can envision someone foolhardy enough to waste all those bombs, or just never pick them up, and unlucky enough to not get any from the enemies. I know I would hate that, so I'm trying to come up with some way to work around it (and I consider it too much hand-holding to give them the bombs in the very room where they are needed). The walk-through option may be doable, I'll just have to think on it.

And I hear ya on the Blue Wizzrobes. I had some in my Level 5, and they were killing me more that I liked, so I took a few out. :)

[CJC]

Well, analyzing my paths, I've been careful to leave a way out, except in this one place where you have to bomb to get out (due to a one-way path going in).

There are ways to ensure a player never gets trapped without ruining your puzzle. Include an 'exit' walkthrough wall that leads to a previous room, or a passageway staircase that takes the player back to the dungeon entrance. Or... a push-block that'll re-open the shutter. The escapes don't have to be obvious, but they should be there to prevent the player from being forced to reset their game.

[Imzogelmo]

Yes, just advancing will be non-obvious in some cases. The path I mention is a punishment-path, for someone who went the wrong way. At any rate, I've edited that part so that it's impossible to get permanently stuck (but it will be quite a bit harder if you did run out of bombs).

[zcfan27330]

I plan on entering, but this will be my first ever created quest, so it might show big time and I'll be extremely pleased if I don't finish dead last in any of those catergories that Nightmare listed

I have so many little ideas that just translate bad into the big picture of a completed quest. I wish I got in on this sooner that I could tag team with someone

[Nightmare]

Updated: Gleeok and SUCCESSOR out, DQ possibilies added

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. BigJoe
2. Chris Miller
3. Nightmare

In Progress:
1. DCSyxx 9still haven't finished Lv. 1 so I don't know where to place his difficulty yet, so far looks like large levels and hard bosses)

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. ZCFan
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

[Nightmare]

Sorry for the double, but thought I'd re-iterate this so even the PureZC people can see this:

JUST BECAUSE YOUR QUEST IS DQ WORTHY DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T POSSIBLY GOOD OR EXCELLENT! I in particular LOVED CJC's quest, but sad to say it didn't follow the specs very well and time's becoming a serious issue in playing all of these. I know there's an audience to deal with, but some of these might make for awesome custom quests down the line. It's just, just as in a real game making, there's a design document that people have to follow when making a game, and this one was specifically a Zelda style quest.

I think there could be some serious custom quests made, hell, I'd like to see CJC's with a modified set and the Z1 Overworld, it'd be awesome. I'd play it again.

-James

[Nightmare]

Updated:Through Shoelace's

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare
4. DCSyxx

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe
4. DCSyxx

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. DCSyxx
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. Nightmare

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. Shoelace
2. ZCFan
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

[CJC]

Didn't follow the specs
...
Serious custom quests made, hell, I'd like to see CJC's with a modified set and the Z1 Overworld, it'd be awesome. I'd play it again.

-James

I'll have you know I did not break a single rule in the contest! My palettes, scripts, and tiles are all presented in the Z1 style. The only thing that's wonky is my dungeon floors.

But I follow you. I'm doing some spriting in passing towards a pseud0-cl4ssic tileset (flat colors, but more of them) that I'll debut with this quest as the seed. I actually feel most of the classic overworld and dungeon tiles are really good... the overall presentation suffers do to the undeatailed nature of the moving components (admittedly a shortcoming of the system that bore the original game).

Anyway, more people have to play and reject my quest before it can be disqualified! I've made a minor palette correction (for the save icon, it was inconsistent) and some small tweaks to make Level 2 less of a murderbox (there are now three entrances to both the bow and arrow item rooms, the last being blatantly obvious if you somehow get past the Pols without it) and I will supply an updated file when I get a chance.