Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

[CJC]

Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?




I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

[SUCCESSOR]

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

I couldn't tell you. The 4 quests are protected by a magical force known only to the Devs. When they join rings and say a key phrase only then can the quests be opened.

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?

There are no rules against it currently. Personally I don't think the flippers would ruin the NES experience.

[Imzogelmo]

Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

I don't mean this to be funny, and I'm no dev, but I have example_3rd and example_4th (as well as the first 2). Clearly they were at some point available. I could put them up somewhere if there's a need.

[CJC]

I don't mean this to be funny, and I'm no dev, but I have example_3rd and example_4th (as well as the first 2). Clearly they were at some point available. I could put them up somewhere if there's a need.

Actually Example_4th is the only one that I'm missing. I don't know when they were available without password, but I do have the first three unlocked on my computer.

In fact, I was shocked that the 'example' versions of the quests were not bundled after 2.5 came out.

EDIT: What I mean to say is yes, it would be awesome if somebody could make those files available. Maybe we could put them on the quest database?

[Gleeok]

Actually the rules need a minor facelift. They need to offer more freedom with what you can do, but at the same time place more restrictions on the NES side of it. This sounds kind of stupid, I know, but what's most likely to happen is some otherwise great entries (possibly winners) that just don't "feel" like an NES quest so its score drops considerably.

I'm going to quickly run through the 4th with cheats on first, though.

Second, should we include a memorial room for DarkNation in the quest, and if so what should the string say?

We probably should. We could reserve a room on the OW for secrets which no entrants can use, except for writing "RESERVED".

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?
I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...

sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...

Sup.
It was _L_. DarkDragon and I both voted the same for "most fun" which coincided with _L_'s 2nd pick. None of the quests were able to win all across the board making it a rather difficult affair. Thank you for disappearing btw.

To remedy this I'm thinking of a possible joint judging process. The entrants are publicly released and after a period of months, are voted by the community as well as official judges. In order for this to be fair, there needs to be options for: "Completed", "Played Most Of", "Played Some", "Didn't Play", as well as various categories relevant to the 5th.

[CJC]

Actually the rules need a minor facelift. They need to offer more freedom with what you can do, but at the same time place more restrictions on the NES side of it. This sounds kind of stupid, I know, but what's most likely to happen is some otherwise great entries (possibly winners) that just don't "feel" like an NES quest so its score drops considerably.

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...

On the boomerang:

Spoiler: show

My desire to remove the boomerang comes mainly because it seems to be a pariah item: Quests hide it until late dungeons because it makes the game 'too easy'. My goal in switching it for the hookshot was to maintain the stun mechanic while limiting it to orthogonal directions. It would also add the ability to throw in 'uncrossable' rooms that require the hookshot, yes, to make the item required for progression (I guess that's the equivalent of a ZQuest trope, huh?)
I can work around this removal by adding a 'boomerang block' that triggers secrets in a room, which I could then use to make a bridge appear in a room that would normally be impossible to cross.

On the Flippers:

Spoiler: show

My plan was to convert all shore combos to 'ladder only' and make only the open water combos swimmable (so the Ladder would still be viable in these situations, and without it the only way into the water is a raft pier). The addition of flippers exists primarily to hide more secret entrances in the water, and to ensure said entrances cannot be reached until the flippers are acquired.
If I could find or construct a script that would let Link move freely on water tiles when he has the raft (probably just needs to check for the item, then combo type, then draw the raft on layer 0), the flippers will no longer be necessary.

On the Bait

Spoiler: show

Feed the Goriya rooms don't really add a whole lot to the quest for me. I have a more interesting solution to these roadblocks which I think will be favorable.
As for the bait itself I suppose it's frustration because it is essentially useless in every other room (yeah, there's hunger, but how often is that going to be viable in combat?). I intended to remove the Bait so I could make room for the Hammer, which will play a significant role in Overworld secrets (break those rocks) as well as dungeon combat (Large groups of Darknuts in certain dungeons will be a sign that the hammer is necessary).
I suppose I can adjust my level 2 bomb to serve most of the hammer's functions, though it will complicate matters when hiding secrets on the overworld.

Perhaps we should just let contestants build the quests using the current rule proposal and then--if the 'Classic Zelda' feeling is insufficient (as rated by the public who play the quest)--make suggestions for correcting the issue on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of places where the Classic feel could be broken, but that is a matter of opinion and it might be better to make corrections rather than restrictions. In other words, leave it up to the majority. Since the quest is for everybody, we should poll if the quest is 'classic' enough.


AH, that's it! Contestants should open a thread when they make the submission and said thread should have poll/feedback to determine how to make the quest 'more' classic.

[Zim]

On the boomerang:

Spoiler: show

My desire to remove the boomerang comes mainly because it seems to be a pariah item: Quests hide it until late dungeons because it makes the game 'too easy'. My goal in switching it for the hookshot was to maintain the stun mechanic while limiting it to orthogonal directions. It would also add the ability to throw in 'uncrossable' rooms that require the hookshot, yes, to make the item required for progression (I guess that's the equivalent of a ZQuest trope, huh?)
I can work around this removal by adding a 'boomerang block' that triggers secrets in a room, which I could then use to make a bridge appear in a room that would normally be impossible to cross.

On the Flippers:

Spoiler: show

My plan was to convert all shore combos to 'ladder only' and make only the open water combos swimmable (so the Ladder would still be viable in these situations, and without it the only way into the water is a raft pier). The addition of flippers exists primarily to hide more secret entrances in the water, and to ensure said entrances cannot be reached until the flippers are acquired.
If I could find or construct a script that would let Link move freely on water tiles when he has the raft (probably just needs to check for the item, then combo type, then draw the raft on layer 0), the flippers will no longer be necessary.

On the Bait

Spoiler: show

Feed the Goriya rooms don't really add a whole lot to the quest for me. I have a more interesting solution to these roadblocks which I think will be favorable.
As for the bait itself I suppose it's frustration because it is essentially useless in every other room (yeah, there's hunger, but how often is that going to be viable in combat?). I intended to remove the Bait so I could make room for the Hammer, which will play a significant role in Overworld secrets (break those rocks) as well as dungeon combat (Large groups of Darknuts in certain dungeons will be a sign that the hammer is necessary).
I suppose I can adjust my level 2 bomb to serve most of the hammer's functions, though it will complicate matters when hiding secrets on the overworld.

Perhaps we should just let contestants build the quests using the current rule proposal and then--if the 'Classic Zelda' feeling is insufficient (as rated by the public who play the quest)--make suggestions for correcting the issue on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of places where the Classic feel could be broken, but that is a matter of opinion and it might be better to make corrections rather than restrictions. In other words, leave it up to the majority. Since the quest is for everybody, we should poll if the quest is 'classic' enough.


AH, that's it! Contestants should open a thread when they make the submission and said thread should have poll/feedback to determine how to make the quest 'more' classic.

Upon reading this post I have come upon the realization that a 5th quest should not add or subtract from any previous game mechanics of tLoZ and be a rearrangement of the original LoZ map with absolutely no changes in game mechanics. That's my final opinion and vote on this matter.

[SUCCESSOR]

Upon reading this post I have come upon the realization that a 5th quest should not add or subtract from any previous game mechanics of tLoZ and be a rearrangement of the original LoZ map with absolutely no changes in game mechanics. That's my final opinion and vote on this matter.

BOOOOO-RING! I would rather eat plain white rice 3 meals a day for a month.

[Zim]

BOOOOO-RING! I would rather eat plain white rice 3 meals a day for a month.

I actually did that once.. Except for it was only 1 or 2, and I had some butter and sugar, and I skipped some days.
Not recommended PoA.

I just started thinking that if it were me, I'd make the 5th quest as if it were made within the limitations of the NES LoZ, and as if it were a quest that was in the original NES game. Isn't that the point of calling it 5th Quest anyway?

I'll be glad to see whatever comes of it either way.

[SUCCESSOR]

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...

While I am not particularly fond of the hookshot or the flippers there is currently nothing in the rules against using them or removing NES items from being accessible in the quest. Are you suggesting we add that to the rules?

We probably should. We could reserve a room on the OW for secrets which no entrants can use, except for writing "RESERVED".

While I think adding a screen for DN is a great idea, I don't think we should force it on entrants. I like what c-a-d said about using DarkNation or DN to access the quest or maybe DarkN.

To remedy this I'm thinking of a possible joint judging process. The entrants are publicly released and after a period of months, are voted by the community as well as official judges. In order for this to be fair, there needs to be options for: "Completed", "Played Most Of", "Played Some", "Didn't Play", as well as various categories relevant to the 5th.

I like the idea of a hybrid system of dedicated judges and community voting(which you know because I suggested just such a method to you in chat). Maybe we could merge the two ideas. Each judge awarding their choice a point and each category in community poll awards. Quest with most points wins.