My Shameless self playthough of Zelda 3: The Return of Gannon

[Anarchy_Balsac]

So I had to restart my game after level 8. But since I finished level 9 tonight, I am reviving this. The elevel 9 video will be on youtube tomorrow, in the meantime, here are the original 8 videos.

Okay, youtube embeds are NOT working and I have to go to work in a few, FUCK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZLSFlmV9X4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-VsafadHfw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SefKJlzRoWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwj9tJbEOJ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82KzmsM1U8M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-K-WV0WrlQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3DBid-yui0

And level 8, which I forgot to post after youtube unblocked it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToeayZLyPt4

[James24]

Yeah, I remember playing this quest a while back. It seems you've updated it since. And yeah, I remember that level 1 was quite challenging and entertaining. But there were some major flaws that really put me off.

I remember I quit playing when I found level 2 was hidden behind some arbitrary rock. Quests should never ever hide dungeon entrances, key items or anything else that is needed to finish the quest behind arbitrary secrets. I found that one but if I know the designer does things like that then its likely I'll get stuck later on and I don't want to spend hours bombing arbitrary rocks to find something I need to win the game.

Also the player needs to grind quite a bit to get themselves the gear that's needed to play the game. Grinding is bad. Better idea for challenge quests would be to give the item for free when the player beats a combat challenge.

Zelda 3 is a typical type B quest. All the more proof of the type A/type B dichotomy. And were you able to get the type A players on board with it? I haven't seen any of them post support for your easy and super-easy modes. But I don't think you'll ever win them over since what they are looking for in quests is high quality graphics and type A dungeon gimmicks like you see in IoR.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Yeah, I remember playing this quest a while back. It seems you've updated it since. And yeah, I remember that level 1 was quite challenging and entertaining. But there were some major flaws that really put me off.

I remember I quit playing when I found level 2 was hidden behind some arbitrary rock. Quests should never ever hide dungeon entrances, key items or anything else that is needed to finish the quest behind arbitrary secrets. I found that one but if I know the designer does things like that then its likely I'll get stuck later on and I don't want to spend hours bombing arbitrary rocks to find something I need to win the game.

Kinda odd you would say that, given that Levels 7, 8, and 9, of the first quest and several of the second quest levels were hidden in such a manner. I seems trivial today, since the locations are all well known, but it should be noted that back then, it wasn't just a google search away.

I get what you are saying about the grinding, though, but I did put in 10 rupee drops, some secrets, and the Wealth Medals (one of which is the level 1 item) to mitigate it. The thing is that mitigating it too much would be the same is giving away shop items so a balance has to be struck somewhere. There's also the fact that it is a LONG game. So if I set shop prices TOO low, it becomes too easy to buy everything.

If I did these things wrong, I understand, but it's worth noting why things were done that way.

Edit - Okay, I feel asleep all day instead of uploading it, so Level 9 video will be up tomorrow instead.

[James24]

I think that Nintendo made a big mistake by having those arbitrary secrets in their first NES Zelda game. And it seems to me like they learned from that mistake and never repeated it again in any future Zelda games. But even then, there are mitigating circumstances. First, the NES quests aren't kaizo mode so the player is free to explore in comfort. In your game, not only do I have hordes of very powerful enemies to deal with but I also have search for your secrets. Second, in the original Zelda game, secrets were confined to bombs, candles and whistles. And you had a fixed size of overworld. But in Zelda Classic, there is no restriction on the item that can be used to trigger a secret and the overworld can theoretically be of infinite size.

Think about all the times you've played quests. Don't you hate getting stuck and then having to search for the answer online or ask the creator of the quest? The best quests I've played can be played without any player/developer interaction. There should not even be a help section in the forums - that's how good they are!

The other thing about grinding is that it ruins the difficulty balance of your game. If someone grinds too long then they can artificially make your dungeon much, much easier than you had intended. Similarly, if someone doesn't grind then they'll be playing a dungeon much harder than you had intended. I think that before you enter a dungeon there should be a "standard" set of equipment. Items that you've tested the dungeon with and know that this is the game balance that you had intended the player to play on.

I'm not saying your design is right/wrong or good/bad. Its just my personal perspective on what really puts me off when I play custom ZC quests that's all.

[ZoriaRPG]

I think that Nintendo made a big mistake by having those arbitrary secrets in their first NES Zelda game. And it seems to me like they learned from that mistake and never repeated it again in any future Zelda games. But even then, there are mitigating circumstances. First, the NES quests aren't kaizo mode so the player is free to explore in comfort. In your game, not only do I have hordes of very powerful enemies to deal with but I also have search for your secrets. Second, in the original Zelda game, secrets were confined to bombs, candles and whistles. And you had a fixed size of overworld. But in Zelda Classic, there is no restriction on the item that can be used to trigger a secret and the overworld can theoretically be of infinite size.

This was pretty standard, back in the day. Most games were loaded with secrets--this is how they endured. They forced the player to repeatedly play the game, until they mastered it, finding all of the hidden goodies.

Think about all the times you've played quests. Don't you hate getting stuck and then having to search for the answer online or ask the creator of the quest? The best quests I've played can be played without any player/developer interaction. There should not even be a help section in the forums - that's how good they are!

The other thing about grinding is that it ruins the difficulty balance of your game. If someone grinds too long then they can artificially make your dungeon much, much easier than you had intended. Similarly, if someone doesn't grind then they'll be playing a dungeon much harder than you had intended. I think that before you enter a dungeon there should be a "standard" set of equipment. Items that you've tested the dungeon with and know that this is the game balance that you had intended the player to play on.

I don't see anything wrong with allowing the player to set their own pace. This is often an ideal solution, IMO: Let people who want to challenge themselves, do that.

This is why I don't mind having absurdly OP items, and absurdly OP enemies. They're ultimately optional.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Game Balance is only ruined by grinding if you give too many powerful items via shops anyway, which I strongly avoid. Only the Blue Ring, and even then, only b/c the original Zelda did this.

And while you are entitled to not like quests for doing what the original Zelda did, bear in mind ZC is based on it. While you're correct that it was easier to explore at the beginning, two things to bear in mind:

-Death mountain was pretty much a death trap if you lacked the Blue Ring or at least a few extra hearts, so it wasn't 100% safe.
-Demo Quest, which came with the original Zelda Classics, had the EXACT problem you described, in fact it had all of your problems.

It is not wrong to not like this, but it should absolutley be kept in mind when critiquing people's quests. It should also be noted that Zelda 3 restricts it's secrets the same way Zelda 1 did, with the exception that obvious bomb points are opened with super bombs, and that diving exists. The cheat code rooms and secret level room don't follow that rule, but, if you think about it, that kinda makes sense.

Well ok, giant snail shaped rocks can be destroyed by the black boomerang, but that is likely to be discovered by accident anyway.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Anyhow, separate post, level 9, @Gleeok will want to see THIS one:

[James24]

Grinding isn't only restricted to the blue ring, there's the bow and arrow too.

For someone who likes to have their quest resemble the original Zelda please bear in mind that the original Zelda didn't have kaizo difficulty in either the first or second quest. So if you make that glaring difference then why not make other changes? There are also custom enemies in the quest that aren't in the original Zelda. So if you are willing to make custom enemies then why not change other aspects of design?

You can't get into Death Mountain without the 8 pieces of the triforce. If you have the 8 pieces of the triforce, then presumably you would have beaten 8 bosses and got 8 more heart containers. And yeah, the demo quest was good right up to the point where you had to burn the statue which didn't shoot fireballs.

Finally, if you did restrict Zelda 3's secrets to those three items then you haven't communicated that anywhere to the player. How does the player know that you won't have a burning statue somewhere?

Zoria - I've played plenty of old Nintendo games, Zelda is the only game I know of that uses secrets to hide things essential to game completion without any hint of where it is. Care to name others?

[TheDarkOne]

I've played plenty of old Nintendo games, Zelda is the only game I know of that uses secrets to hide things essential to game completion without any hint of where it is. Care to name others?

Zelda II: The Adventure Of Link.

Pretty much all the Zelda games do such things, it's what makes them so fun, finding all the secrets. For example, in LA I found purely by accident that taking exactly five seashells to Seashell Mansion gets you a free shell--I just happened to have five when I first stumbled upon the place.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

* stuff *

Okay, the original Zelda didn't have 15 levels either, this is just nitpicking.

And the reason I assume people know this is because it is generally, in Z1 style quests, accepted that these are the only type of secrets that will have no hints. Most quest builders don't do random secrets with no hints unless it's for game breaking items or cheat codes, the acception being the type that Zelda 1 used. So it wasn't unreasonable to assume the player wasn't paranoid, flailing about, bombing trees and burning lakes.