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Thread: "The era of decline" in Zelda

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    Ara? Mitsukara's Avatar
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    "The era of decline" in Zelda

    So a while back Hyrule Historia came out, adding some perhaps unexpected official say-so on the existence of a Zelda series timeline. I'm sure it's still the source of debates, but there's one period in particular I'm thinking about at the moment, and that's the "era of decline", in which Zelda 1 and II are said to take place (preceded by an era of Hyrulian monarchy using the Triforce as described in Zelda II's manual, preceded before that by Link's Awakening, the Oracle games, and LTTP- though I'm honestly not too sure how Oracles are supposed to fit in between those two, but really Oracles is a whole headache unto itself as far as timeline connections).

    So basically, the story goes that Link got the Triforce in LTTP, fixed all kinds of stuff Ganon had done in that game per the ending, and then, apparently, brought the Triforce back to Hyrule, where it was enshrined in a castle (possibly just Hyrule Castle??). That Link had some other adventures and kept an eye on the Triforce (as is said to be happening at the beginning of the Oracles games, for instance), but basically, it became the property of the royal line, who used it wisely for many generations to ensure peace and prosperity throughout Hyrule, in a sort of golden age. Must be some pretty darn trustworthy kings and queens I guess, but presumably they are descended from the Zelda in LTTP, so that makes sense.

    So finally the royal line starts to screw up, and this one king decides to hide the Triforce of Courage somewhere so that his son can't misuse the entirety of the Triforce. When it's time for the Prince to inherit it, he gets jealous, gets a sorcerer involved, questions his sister- another Princess Zelda- who knows where the triforce is, and she winds up getting put to sleep for centuries (until Zelda II happens). In the meanwhile, Hyrule enters an "era of decline", especially once Ganon returns, setting the stage for Zelda 1 where everybody lives in caves and Ganon's minions are all over the place.

    But wait a minute- Zelda II happens just a few years after Zelda 1. In that game, Link travels across a huge zoomed-out world map, in which a tiny portion of the map is the actual overworld from Zelda 1 (south of Death Mountain). But here, we see there's a whole bunch of towns- probably more towns than we've ever seen in one Zelda game- which are all doing fine, aside from the occasional Ganon follower waiting to pounce on Link (all of whom are keese in disguise as humans until they do that). The overworld music is happy, Ganon is still destroyed so long as Link doesn't die and get blood-sacrificed to facilitate his revival, and the main reason Link needs the Triforce of courage is to revive the sleeping Zelda (as opposed to the other, later Zelda he just rescued from Ganon). Presumably having the whole Triforce again will benefit Hyrule in other ways, but yeah.

    So basically, what I'm wondering here is; is this "era of decline" actually all that bad? You might look at Zelda 1 and say "everybody lives in caves, where's Kakariko village" etc., but surely all those towns in Zelda II weren't JUST built in the, what, six years afterwards? And if they were, that suggests that things improved pretty quickly after Ganon's defeat. Either way, it seems less like some kind of horrible era of death and suffering happened at this point in the timeline, and more like the kingdom- possibly literally just the government of the kingdom itself, not like, the entire populace of the land- had a bit of a downturn in an otherwise very prosperous era. Like perhaps the central governing body of Hyrule, and Hyrule Castle itself, fell apart for a time, but all the surrounding territory held out pretty well anyway.

    Now granted, this timeline is still pretty grim with the whole imprisoning war thing that came earlier, but it gives me the impression that basically, things were actually pretty cool after LTTP, except in a comparatively small region of Hyrule where Ganon managed to make an actually fairly small comeback. Which might explain why he hides during the whole fight and dies in a handful of hits from the magic (magic- not master) sword (that some old dude in a graveyard got from somewhere) and like, one silver arrow- arguably one of the easiest battles against Ganon in history. (of course, IRL that's due to the game being the first in the series, and the easiness is debatable- and I'm not commenting on the difficulty of the whole game, as it's definitely not one of the easiest, just the battle with Ganon himself-, but compare that to say, how many hits Ganon takes in LTTP, and how much more complex the dodging is, and so on).

    Anyway, that's just my theory- that the 'decline' in question was somewhat minor, more of a hiccup in a golden age than the direst period in history or somesuch (which for that timeline probably came earlier, after the defeat of the would-be Hero of Time). But what do you think? I'm not the biggest expert on all this.
    Last edited by Mitsukara; 08-31-2013 at 11:41 PM. Reason: typos and things I wanted to say more clearly

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    Gibdo Aliem's Avatar
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    Well, simply put, I think the Era of Decline is more a post-Pax Romana type situation for Hyrule. The Royal family no longer held the entire Triforce and there were again hordes of monsters roaming the world almost unchecked. While there were more cities in the Hyrule of Adventure of Link, I always got the feeling they were more real-world dark ages; they lacked the, and I can't believe I'm using this word, whimsy of the other zelda towns.

    Hyrule itself was in decline I think because the King referenced in AoL split the Triforce; this ensured that successing generations wouldn't be ruling with the full power they once had. Eventually, I think, the Triforce and even the gods themselves fell into legend, then myth, then fairy tale, then forgotten. The world of Zelda 1 and Adventure of Link always struck me as a world without the gods- which I guess makes sense becuase that story element hadn't yet been concieved (which I'm certain is why Z1 and Z2 are put on a part of the timeline where the retcons that have occured don't effect them in the least).

    What interests me the most about the Era of Decline is Ganon. The Ganon of A Link to the Past is without doubt the Ganon that killed Link in Ocarina of Time's Downfall timeline. But when LttP's Link kills him, he's said to be "completely destroyed". That incarnation is no more. However, thanks to that little curse Demise concocted in Skyward Sword, LttP's Link is the first Link to really destroy an incarnation of Ganon completely. (Though I think it's a safe bet that Wind Waker and Twilight Princess's Ganon deaths are both pretty cut and dry, since in both games he no longer held the Triforce of Power... So I guess the "first" Ganon has been defeated in all three timelines). The Ganon of Zelda 1, I think, is unrelated to Ganondorf. I think he's just another incarnation of Demise; maybe like a giant Moblin or something. The Ganon from the Oracle games was an imperfect resurrection of Ocarina's Ganon, of course, but I do think Zelda 1's Ganon was something else.

    It's interesting that the Downfall Timeline is the most developed, yet remains, to me, the most mysterious. I'd love to see a game set post AoL; let's see how the oldest-yet-newest Hyrule is doing? The whole "New Hyrule" thing from the adult timeline is neat, and all, but eeeehhh... Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks didn't feel right to me. It's a neat world in which developers can experiemnt with the Zelda formula though

    Another thing- this always bothered me. The Zelda from AoL was refered to as the "first" Zelda. I had thought this off as maybe a mistranslation, or a poorly retconned concept, but then I thought about it. A Link between Worlds might mess this up, but so far, Link's Awakening is the last game before Zelda 1 in that timeline. Who knows how long has passed between those two games though? If Zelda 1 is sufficiently far in the future, and there haven't been any major cataclysms in the last, say, three thousand years or so, Hylia need not reincarnate into a Zelda, thus there'd not be a Zelda post-Oracle. Then the Zelda from AoL is born, and the prince has her cocnked out for god knows how long. If she was the first Zelda in a couple thousand years, and was afterward the namesake for all other Hyrulean princesses thereafter, it stands to reason that she'd be regarded as the "first" Zelda even when she wasn't.

    And digging deeper in to that, if the AoL Zelda retains the whole Hylia ressurected theme from Skyward Sword, for what crisis was she reborn? Was she put to sleep before her purpose was fulfilled?

    Zelda games might not always be perfect, but the mythos is some of the best, for my money, in gaming history.

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    The Artist Once Known As Old-Skool QDB Manager
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    Hyrule Historia claims Hyrule lost land after the Imprisoning War, though I'm not entirely sure what that means. Alttp's map seems similar enough to that of OoT for them to be the same, accounting for having compressed the land into a square and a few centuries passing. perhaps the haunted wasteland was lost? I'm honestly intrigued by how Hyrule's geography shifts between games now.


    Here is what I can tell you as fact regarding overworld geography between Alttp and OoT in particular. Check it out!!


    1): The downfall timeline begins with Link losing to Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time. This means that even if his castle is still standing and he hadn't fought Link as Ganon yet, Hyrule Castle has already been destroyed. Now yes, early on in the development of Ocarina of Time, Hyrule Castle was going to be at the center of the overworld, but it got scrapped. Instead, study the Alttp map with the understanding that the Hyrule Castle of Ocarina of Time no longer exists. *Assume* Ganondorf's castle was probably destroyed as well.

    2): Hyrule Historia makes a point of stating that the resting place of the Master Sword in the lost woods was once the location of the Temple of Time. If you study the OoT map, there is woodland directly behind Hyrule Castle. Presumably after everyone fled, woodland took the place over again. (notice also that in alternate timeline game Twilight Princess, the connection between the lost woods and the temple of time is much more blatant.)

    3): The site of the Master Sword is not far at all from the corner of Death Mountain. I'm talking about both games, here, but it also applies once again to Twilight Princess: In this game, Hyrule is not located beneath Death Mountain, but to the west of it, much further north than in Ocarina of Time. Interesting, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Aquamentus View Post
    Hyrule Historia claims Hyrule lost land after the Imprisoning War, though I'm not entirely sure what that means. Alttp's map seems similar enough to that of OoT for them to be the same, accounting for having compressed the land into a square and a few centuries passing. perhaps the haunted wasteland was lost? I'm honestly intrigued by how Hyrule's geography shifts between games now.


    Here is what I can tell you as fact regarding overworld geography between Alttp and OoT in particular. Check it out!!


    1): The downfall timeline begins with Link losing to Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time. This means that even if his castle is still standing and he hadn't fought Link as Ganon yet, Hyrule Castle has already been destroyed. Now yes, early on in the development of Ocarina of Time, Hyrule Castle was going to be at the center of the overworld, but it got scrapped. Instead, study the Alttp map with the understanding that the Hyrule Castle of Ocarina of Time no longer exists. *Assume* Ganondorf's castle was probably destroyed as well.

    2): Hyrule Historia makes a point of stating that the resting place of the Master Sword in the lost woods was once the location of the Temple of Time. If you study the OoT map, there is woodland directly behind Hyrule Castle. Presumably after everyone fled, woodland took the place over again. (notice also that in alternate timeline game Twilight Princess, the connection between the lost woods and the temple of time is much more blatant.)

    3): The site of the Master Sword is not far at all from the corner of Death Mountain. I'm talking about both games, here, but it also applies once again to Twilight Princess: In this game, Hyrule is not located beneath Death Mountain, but to the west of it, much further north than in Ocarina of Time. Interesting, huh?
    Look at OoT's Map. Cut off the Lost Woods and much of Zora Domain. Where Hyrule castle used to be is now overgrown and refered to as the Lost Woods(a name passed down that people forgot refered to a place outside of Hyrule that has been lost). Put Hyrule Castle in the middle of Hyrule Field and southern Hyrule Field is now swampland directly below the castle. East Hyrule field at the edge of where OoT's Lost Woods used to be accessible is now where the Eatern Palace resides. A Sanctuary and Graveyard mark where Kakariko Village once stood (until it was destroyed). There, you now have the world of aLttP.

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    The Artist Once Known As Old-Skool QDB Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    Look at OoT's Map. Cut off the Lost Woods and much of Zora Domain. Where Hyrule castle used to be is now overgrown and refered to as the Lost Woods(a name passed down that people forgot refered to a place outside of Hyrule that has been lost). Put Hyrule Castle in the middle of Hyrule Field and southern Hyrule Field is now swampland directly below the castle. East Hyrule field at the edge of where OoT's Lost Woods used to be accessible is now where the Eatern Palace resides. A Sanctuary and Graveyard mark where Kakariko Village once stood (until it was destroyed). There, you now have the world of aLttP.
    ^
    This covers a lot, though the resemblance between the two overworlds cannot be dismissed. Also, I'm fairly certain that the river leading to Zora's Domain is in Alttp. It might even actually be called Zora's Domain in some translations.

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    Gibdo Aliem's Avatar
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    Would those interpretations make the Desert of Mystery a dried Lake Hylia?

    I've personally never thought it very important at all to try comparing overworlds since it never works (for example, OoT's temple of time is in the northern central part of the map. This temple of time was supposed to be built over the Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword, but it's at the southern part of the map. Skyward Sword's Temple of Time location fits much better with Twilight Princess's take on Hyurle, but none of them mesh well with A Link to the Past's Master Sword location, which is in the northwestern part of the map. If overworlds are supposed to connct in some day, my only thought would be that in both downfall and child timelines, Oot's hyrule is abandoned.

    This map isn't perfect, since it seems to forget OoT's Death Mountain, but it makes more sense to me than each game takes place in the exact same area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliem View Post
    Would those interpretations make the Desert of Mystery a dried Lake Hylia?

    No, Lake Hylia would be in the same place. Obviously a little off because of the "squished" aLttP map. Desert of Mystery is located nicely with OoT's desert or (with centuries of erosion) a nearer portion of that same desert is accessible.

    I have never cared for TP's Overworld and SS didn't have a true overworld so it doesn't count.

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    The Artist Once Known As Old-Skool QDB Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    No, Lake Hylia would be in the same place. Obviously a little off because of the "squished" aLttP map. Desert of Mystery is located nicely with OoT's desert or (with centuries of erosion) a nearer portion of that same desert is accessible.

    I have never cared for TP's Overworld and SS didn't have a true overworld so it doesn't count.
    ^I'm with this. And again, in Ocarina of Time, Death Mountain does not cover the whole northern portion of the map. Same goes for A Link to the past. If you continue further west from these points in both games, you come across the Master Sword (plus, HH again says "yep same spot." With that in mind, you can't completely answer the question of Hyrule's Geography by saying "It's a game", because there are clues thrown in.
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    Last edited by King Aquamentus; 09-03-2013 at 09:29 AM.

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    Ara? Mitsukara's Avatar
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    When games in a series seem to involve the same locations, but arranged differently, I like to take into account the idea that maybe some very dramatic land shifting went on in the possible centuries (did Hyrule Historia actually display ant numbers for how long these things took? I don't personally own a copy, so I might've missed that). Tectonic plates, flooding, hills shifting, and that kind of stuff. It doesn't really cover everything, and in real life geography doesn't change in THAT much of a hurry (it changes plenty- it just takes a very, very long time), but it can excuse a few discrepancies.

    One thing I'm not clear on at all, in theories regarding how the land developed, where do Zelda 1 and Zelda II's larger Hyrule fit into the scheme of what used to be LTTP?

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    The Artist Once Known As Old-Skool QDB Manager
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    Zelda II largely occurs on the other side of Death Mountain (the east side) while Twilight Princess shows us a little of the west side. What isn't totally clear is just how much of Hyrule is actually *south* of it. Just because Zelda II's map ends abruptly with a cemetary to the far southwest of Death Mountain doesn't mean there wasn't actually more. :/ Keep in mind, there should be a desert further west. In terms of land shifting though, that seems most common with woodland and bodies of water. Even between OoT and Alttp, small streams carved deep gouges into the land, and new paths sprung up. forests creep all over Hyrule if left unchecked.

    Also, in regards to your original question, Skyward Sword sort of gives a big clue why it was an era of decline, in regards to Zelda herself, though without revealing spoilers, I can say this:

    The Zelda from the original NES game was not a true Zelda. She bore the name by law only, and kept the Triforce of Wisdom but could not wield it. Even she could see the danger in letting Ganon get it though, as he *could* wield it (and Link too presumably - Spells,anyone?) So she broke it apart. There couldn't be a new "true" Zelda because technically, she's still alive up in the North Palace. That's why Impa flips her shit when Link shows her his crest.
    Last edited by King Aquamentus; 09-04-2013 at 10:29 PM.

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