Problem with the 3rd quest

[Nightmare]

I would say to definitely fix softlock situations Zoria. Those are unacceptable.

The bug provider should provide video evidence to show it's a real bug and not user error/lack of skill though.

-James

[James24]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

[Nightmare]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

This is why I've asked for the half-tile trick to be implementable in all versions. I personally want the Zelda mechanics in my quests, but no clue if AlplhaDawg did or not, there's no way to ask him or tell what he wants. This is why I feel it should be a universal emulation feature.

Good point James24.

-James

[ZoriaRPG]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

Ah, this is because the uest was last saved in a 2.50 build. The old build of the quest, from 1.92, should not have this issue. I could also easily make a build of 3rd with that bit enabled, and make it available as a 'more pure' version as extra DLC.

You can toggle the halftile collision for quests made in some specific versions of ZC, from a menu now, because the behaviour was in flux during the development phase of the engine in those versions. This is a user-set patch, but you cannot apply it to 2.50 quests, or any version in which the questmaker could set that as a rule.

Same thing for some other old behaviour, such as windrobe spawning.

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

I could add that as a secondary objective, with one line of code. Not a bad idea, and it seems better than having max hearts, as needing max hearts punishes speedrunners. The entire quest order thing is optional as of 2.55 alpha 2 or so, but in 2.53, this wouldn't be out of line.

Back OT: @Joeiiii Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked?

[Gleeok]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

I fixed all those bugs in 2.53. I actually fixed them back in 2.50 as well, but due to another bug added later those fixes stopped working.

Very annoying but at least they've been working for a while now.

[James24]

Well, we should be able to work with the assumption that the version he made the 3rd quest with was the way he intended the game to be played. Clearly ZC changed from the time he made the quest till now, so therefore its only right that ZC revert that change so that people can play the quest as he originally meant it to be played. There's a NES fix rule in 2.53 right now the "correct enemy weapon offset" rule which does this, but it would have to be retrospectively applied to all quests made from the 1.92 era.

[James24]

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

[Nightmare]

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

Respect to the original game. Alpha knew as many of the mechanics and things as I did at the time, and the half tile trick adds strategy and keeps Blue Wizzrobes and Windrobes from being OP, if you're smart. I added it to Demo EX 2.50 also (Version 3.0 of Demo) and James Quest as well. This is a Zelda 1 mechanic, and a critical one: it belongs in the game.

-James

[ZoriaRPG]

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

I'm afraid that I do not know the answer here. I opened it to fo a bug with Dodongo sfx introduced by the enginem, but it had already been dsaved in 2.50.1 before that.

My edit fixed that one issue, and it did not affect the original password.

[Joeiiii]

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

Sorry for let you wait.

One of the problems, to find in Level 6, is in the lower left corner:



In the sandy room (from the start of the level up, right, right, up) you can go up or left. If you go left, you have to defeat same Goriya and Keese to get a key. But if you go up, you are in big troubles. Behind you shuts the 1-way-shutter and there is no bombable wall or a walktrough in this and in the further rooms. If you have no key, you have to reset/save.

And almost worse than this 1-way-shutter problem: If you try it again, of course with the key from the left room, you will find in the locked room a stair who brings you to a room one room up from the start screen.

and what would the proposed fix be?

I think that a change from 1-way-shutter to a normal shutter would be the best and minimal invasive intervention.

Back OT: @Joeiiii Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked?

In the example above it wouldn't not help if it is so.

In Level 9 (4th quest) I'm almost sure, that there could be some bomb dropping enemies. But what does bombs help, if you have no key? There is a stair, in the room below is a 1-way-shutter and in the next room you need a key. Even a million bombs doesn't help if you have no key. Without bombs you have the problem a little bit earlier.

But I love the 4th and Level 9 anyway. A sword, two bombs and one fucking key are enough to get the magic key. I bought 4 keys, because I haven't found the right way. Now i know, that the magic key is "very easy" to find (because NOW I know the way).


Now I'm playing the 5th quest. Quest 3rd.qst and 4th.qst I have played through. My self-made cards of each level are (hopefully) complete. My problem is now: If you ask me something, for example Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked? and I don't know the answer, I must run Zelda Classic, go to the level and have to look, because I haven't a cheat code or the password for the file. And I don't think that you'll give it to me.