User Tag List

Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 115

Thread: AngelScript: The Revenge

  1. #101
    Keese
    ZC Developer

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    30
    Posts
    52
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    617
    Level
    8
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    82.89%
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamamo View Post
    I@ZoriaRPG @Grayswandir @Dimentio
    if you have nothing else to say about the implementation of angelscript. then feel free to make another thread to discussion compatibility. It's really sad when i'm forced to put my foot down here cause you kids don't know how to stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    Because the discussion on Zscript hasn't been constructive. It's been mostly whining about what *might* happen with Zscript. This isn't the thread to discuss what may or may not happen with Zscript in the future. It's not constructive.
    I'm not sure why y'all decided that we can't talk about how ZScript and AS interact in this thread. The very first post asks that question:
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDragon View Post
    2. Is it feasible to switch to AngelScript while maintaining compatibility with old quests (presumably, this would require only supporting the ZASM interpreter, and ZScript could be dropped entirely)? Or would an AngelScript-driven ZC live in its own ecosystem separate from the existing program and quests?
    Although we could limit this thread to "the parts of implementing AS that specifically don't have anything to do with ZScript," I didn't see any indication that that was the case, and I think it would be detrimental to do so. Arbitrarily viewing the "two" problems in isolation doesn't seem productive to me.

    And in my view, it's been constructive. In the last few pages, @Gleeok learned about a (major?) problem with integrating ZScript and AS (whatever it is we're doing) he was otherwise unaware of.


    I think the real problem with, er, being "constructive", is than nobody knows exactly what's going on. I've discussed various options with lots of people, but nowhere have I seen a decision. I think it'd be helpful if @Gleeok or someone briefly described the current AS work done, and what the current plan for the finished product is, even if tentative. It's hard to discuss AS if we're not all on the same page.

  2. #102
    Username Kaiser SUCCESSOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Winning.
    Age
    33
    Posts
    4,435
    Mentioned
    152 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    10,397
    Level
    30
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    31.74%
    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    I'm not sure why y'all decided that we can't talk about how ZScript and AS interact in this thread. The very first post asks that question:

    Although we could limit this thread to "the parts of implementing AS that specifically don't have anything to do with ZScript," I didn't see any indication that that was the case, and I think it would be detrimental to do so. Arbitrarily viewing the "two" problems in isolation doesn't seem productive to me.

    And in my view, it's been constructive. In the last few pages, @Gleeok learned about a (major?) problem with integrating ZScript and AS (whatever it is we're doing) he was otherwise unaware of.


    I think the real problem with, er, being "constructive", is than nobody knows exactly what's going on. I've discussed various options with lots of people, but nowhere have I seen a decision. I think it'd be helpful if @Gleeok or someone briefly described the current AS work done, and what the current plan for the finished product is, even if tentative. It's hard to discuss AS if we're not all on the same page.

    You seem to be deliberately taking what I said out of context. Anyone with relevant points or questions on the subject of this thread are not something I would(or have) take issue with. The fact that it evolved into whining and bickering about things that have already been covered is what is getting irksome. As most certainly the portion of DD's post you quoted has been covered. Not with absolute certainty, but nothing is certain right now.

    What is the MAJOR problem? The array thing? People will have to update their broken scripts that will be unsupported because of their stupid, awful code. How is that an issue? Solution: Don't code bad. (I code bad all the time but.... TRY DON'T CODE BAD!)

    Gleeok has stated what he is doing. I don't think Gleeok explains things. If you want to know exactly what he is doing you will have to just jump in and try to figure it out. As I am doing. Well, I haven't actually spent very much time doing it because of school and work.

  3. #103
    OBEY GOVERNMENT GOD ZC Developer
    Gleeok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,779
    Mentioned
    256 Post(s)
    Tagged
    10 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    12,685
    Level
    32
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    96.97%
    What I'm doing:

    AS needs bindings to ZC stuff, because the scripts need to call things like Link.HP etc.. There are about 400 functions total. AS also needs types declared like lweapon, ect with methods for those. These won't work exactly like ZScript, since I'm optimizing for performance whenever possible.

    General mechanisms for creating and calling scripts similar to ZScript so they are comparable, plus lots of messaging support.

    Lexing and preprocessing scripts so they are closer to ZScript and simpler syntactically than c++.

    I'm also putting in array specializations for all known types, again, for a performance boost.

    The part that will take the longest is bindings to legacy ZScript functions... and I'll probably release the first AS prototype before this is even done.

    ...So there you go.
    "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" (British Royal Institute, 1906)
    "The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem" �Henry Ford
    "Dope Inc. - Britain Opium War Against The U.S." (LaRouche; Konstandinos Kalimtgis; David Goldman; Jeffrey Stienberg, 1978)
    "Fundamental Laws: A Report of the 68th Convocation of the Rose Cross Order" 1916
    "War is a Racket" �Major General Smedley Butler
    "The Secret Destiny of America" �Manly P. Hall
    "A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties" Oded Yinon (English Translation)
    The WWI Conspiracy: Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3 "A New World Order"
    The War You Don't See
    Psywar

    �The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating.� �Thomas Jefferson
    �It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system for, if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.� �Henry Ford
    �Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants.� �Benjamin Franklin

    This post contains the official Gleeok� seal of approval. Look for these and other posts in an area near you.

  4. #104
    Keese
    ZC Developer

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    30
    Posts
    52
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    617
    Level
    8
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    82.89%
    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    You seem to be deliberately taking what I said out of context. Anyone with relevant points or questions on the subject of this thread are not something I would(or have) take issue with. The fact that it evolved into whining and bickering about things that have already been covered is what is getting irksome. As most certainly the portion of DD's post you quoted has been covered. Not with absolute certainty, but nothing is certain right now.
    What exactly did I take out of context? I assure you, there were no "deliberate" misunderstandings on my part. I skimmed the thread and everything seemed (reasonably) on topic to me. (At least, it was as on topic as your constant incitement to kill ZScript or whatever.)

    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    What is the MAJOR problem? The array thing? People will have to update their broken scripts that will be unsupported because of their stupid, awful code. How is that an issue? Solution: Don't code bad. (I code bad all the time but.... TRY DON'T CODE BAD!)
    Around half of all extant scripts breaking is a pretty big problem, yes. I mean, I personally don't care that much, but ZC seems to be pretty big on backward compatibility in general. And it's not "bad code". It's the best way to emulate pointers in the crappy ZScript syntax. You can work around it, yes, but for any non-trivial examples, doing so introduces so much more complexity that the "bad" syntax is more than compensated for.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    Gleeok has stated what he is doing. I don't think Gleeok explains things. If you want to know exactly what he is doing you will have to just jump in and try to figure it out. As I am doing. Well, I haven't actually spent very much time doing it because of school and work.
    Well, certainly, he doesn't have to. I just thought that some sort of update would be useful. I still don't know what the final plan is, aside from "AS is being added." Plenty of different options have been discussed, but I haven't seen anything definite, only words along the lines of "everything will work fine."


    Edit: See, that was pretty helpful. :) Thanks for the prompt response, @Gleeok .

  5. #105
    Here lies mero. Died by his own dumbassitude.
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    929
    Mentioned
    102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    5,527
    Level
    23
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    13.96%
    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Around half of all extant scripts breaking is a pretty big problem, yes. I mean, I personally don't care that much, but ZC seems to be pretty big on backward compatibility in general. And it's not "bad code". It's the best way to emulate pointers in the crappy ZScript syntax. You can work around it, yes, but for any non-trivial examples, doing so introduces so much more complexity that the "bad" syntax is more than compensated for. .
    Okay we're done it's a limitation of ZScript's syntax that we're talking about here., which someone found a way to get around. THAT is the very definition of bad programming practice. If the head developer says its bad programming practice as @Gleeok already has. Then it's bad programming practice. End of discussion.
    Now you and your zc.future posse can stop your flipping bickering at me and everyone else you are bickering at cause it's completely disrespectful.

    Cool it, both of you.
    -KA-
    Last edited by King Aquamentus; 02-12-2017 at 09:31 PM.

  6. #106
    Username Kaiser SUCCESSOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Winning.
    Age
    33
    Posts
    4,435
    Mentioned
    152 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    10,397
    Level
    30
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    31.74%
    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    What exactly did I take out of context? I assure you, there were no "deliberate" misunderstandings on my part. I skimmed the thread and everything seemed (reasonably) on topic to me. (At least, it was as on topic as your constant incitement to kill ZScript or whatever.)

    Around half of all extant scripts breaking is a pretty big problem, yes. I mean, I personally don't care that much, but ZC seems to be pretty big on backward compatibility in general. And it's not "bad code". It's the best way to emulate pointers in the crappy ZScript syntax. You can work around it, yes, but for any non-trivial examples, doing so introduces so much more complexity that the "bad" syntax is more than compensated for.

    Well, certainly, he doesn't have to. I just thought that some sort of update would be useful. I still don't know what the final plan is, aside from "AS is being added." Plenty of different options have been discussed, but I haven't seen anything definite, only words along the lines of "everything will work fine."


    Edit: See, that was pretty helpful. :) Thanks for the prompt response, @Gleeok .
    I didn't say, DON't TALK ABOUT ZS EVARRR! I said the discussion of it's hypothetical future, as in things that aren't in anyway certain yet weren't constructive or relevant. And yes, I do support AS replacing ZS. I have used ZS for over 5 years now and I would take anything over it.

    Half of all extant scripts? You got a source on that? Last I heard, Gleeok *estimated* 98% compatibility with a conversion tool and DD stated keeping the interpreter for legacy quests so, 100% compatibility. Far off from 50%. And I have never seen that array thing in a script until Moosh posted that snippet so it can't be a significant chunk of extant code. And what does it work around? What limitation is it working around that can't be done in a safer way? Moosh's example came to personal preference.

    There isnt a final plan. Gleeok is working on AS. That is the only plan on the matter. Until it becomes officially a part of the codebase then Zscript is still the official coding engine. As DD said, it makes sense if AS works out for it to replace ZS.

  7. #107
    Username Kaiser SUCCESSOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Winning.
    Age
    33
    Posts
    4,435
    Mentioned
    152 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    10,397
    Level
    30
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    31.74%
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamamo View Post
    Okay we're done it's a limitation of ZScript's syntax that we're talking about here., which someone found a way to get around. THAT is the very definition of bad programming practice. If the head developer says its bad programming practice as @Gleeok already has. Then it's bad programming practice. End of discussion.
    Now you and your zc.future posse can stop your flipping bickering at me and everyone else you are bickering at cause it's completely disrespectful.
    You are being equally disrespectful. You don't get to declare yourself right and command the discussion is terminated. This sort of post isn't helping the bickering.

    Yes, my posts aren't exactly the posterchild of deescalation, but you have to read anything i write with a hint of sarcasm and a dash of levity... Or else I just sound like an asshole.

  8. #108
    Keese
    ZC Developer

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    30
    Posts
    52
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    617
    Level
    8
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    82.89%
    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    I didn't say, DON't TALK ABOUT ZS EVARRR! I said the discussion of it's hypothetical future, as in things that aren't in anyway certain yet weren't constructive or relevant. And yes, I do support AS replacing ZS. I have used ZS for over 5 years now and I would take anything over it.
    Well, that's more reasonable, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR View Post
    Half of all extant scripts? You got a source on that? Last I heard, Gleeok *estimated* 98% compatibility with a conversion tool and DD stated keeping the interpreter for legacy quests so, 100% compatibility. Far off from 50%. And I have never seen that array thing in a script until Moosh posted that snippet so it can't be a significant chunk of extant code. And what does it work around? What limitation is it working around that can't be done in a safer way? Moosh's example came to personal preference.
    Like I said, ghost.zh uses that trick. I'd estimate that half of all scripts in use are ghost scripts. In any case, it's a big chunk of them. And I know several users who hack into their copy of the ghost library itself to fix perceived bugs, making it rather difficult for them to update to whatever new version fixes this issue. I'd estimate the workaround at around 50 lines of code.
    In any case, I'd estimate that every recent moderately script heavy quest uses it somewhere or else. (Maybe not LaZ? That was mostly developed independent of everything else. I'd have to ask about that.)

    As for what it's used for - like I said, it emulates pointers. So you can use it for whatever kinda thing you'd normally use pointers for. Ghost uses it to stuff 20 or so data values into a single npc->Misc slot. (That particular workaround is dynamically assigning an id in a dedicated global array. You're moving into psuedo-memory management at that point, though). I've used it for a malloc/free system, linked lists, hashmaps, etc. (Though I haven't really released anything...)

  9. #109
    Here lies mero. Died by his own dumbassitude.
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    929
    Mentioned
    102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    5,527
    Level
    23
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    13.96%
    I'm not being disrespectful. And I do get to declare myself right. ummm... Yeah... Because I'm a woman, and woman are always right.
    As for the second part of that equation... meh I'm done with these shenanigans the zc.future posse was the primary reason I left Development in the first place. Why i even thought about joining this warzone again is beyond me, because the posse and the official devs will never get along, that's always been apparent. And nobody seems to like a bitchy japanese woman whose pmsing so fuck it.

  10. #110
    Username Kaiser SUCCESSOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Winning.
    Age
    33
    Posts
    4,435
    Mentioned
    152 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)
    vBActivity - Stats
    Points
    10,397
    Level
    30
    vBActivity - Bars
    Lv. Percent
    31.74%
    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Well, that's more reasonable, I guess.


    Like I said, ghost.zh uses that trick. I'd estimate that half of all scripts in use are ghost scripts. In any case, it's a big chunk of them. And I know several users who hack into their copy of the ghost library itself to fix perceived bugs, making it rather difficult for them to update to whatever new version fixes this issue. I'd estimate the workaround at around 50 lines of code.
    In any case, I'd estimate that every recent moderately script heavy quest uses it somewhere or else. (Maybe not LaZ? That was mostly developed independent of everything else. I'd have to ask about that.)

    As for what it's used for - like I said, it emulates pointers. So you can use it for whatever kinda thing you'd normally use pointers for. Ghost uses it to stuff 20 or so data values into a single npc->Misc slot. (That particular workaround is dynamically assigning an id in a dedicated global array. You're moving into psuedo-memory management at that point, though). I've used it for a malloc/free system, linked lists, hashmaps, etc. (Though I haven't really released anything...)
    All I saw in your quote of ghost.zh code was the passing of an array pointer. Not the abuse of ZS's wonky data type.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Armageddon Games is a game development group founded in 1997. We are extremely passionate about our work and our inspirations are mostly drawn from games of the 8-bit and 16-bit era.
Social