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Thread: The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    What people need to understand is that I wrote LoH and LoH:IE to entertain myself. If my audience is entertained by my quest then I'm happy for them and I'll gladly entertain them because it costs me nothing. But the primary motivation is my own enjoyment. If my audience's suggestions are aligned with my own tastes and enjoyment then I will implement them. But if they are conflicting then everyone should be under no illusions that I will favour myself first.
    Do what you're good at. I respect this. After all, if you don't enjoy it, there isn't much point. Words to live by.

    I know that various type B quest makers have caved in the past - OUCH! with his AQF and Gleeok once or twice. But as for me...never ever ever ever ever ever ever. I will never make my quest easier to appease everyone else above my own enjoyment. I know that the price I will pay is a very small audience but I am happy to pay that price and that is my decision to make. Please respect it no matter how you feel otherwise.
    I think it is rare to find someone who so incorporates challenge into a quest as an integral part of it. For me, the integral part I enjoy most is probably overworlds. For you, challenge. So its hard for me to see why in your case, but that doesn't invalidate you at all. :)

    King Aquamentus - did you get a hold of LoH:IE? I don't think the radio can work like that because my intention was to message the player when they touched certain flagged points in the quest and the messages must come at the point to have any meaningful impact.
    as I said, I'm more the explorative type than the challenge type. So no.

  2. #12
    Username Kaiser SUCCESSOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    What people need to understand is that I wrote LoH and LoH:IE to entertain myself. If my audience is entertained by my quest then I'm happy for them and I'll gladly entertain them because it costs me nothing. But the primary motivation is my own enjoyment. If my audience's suggestions are aligned with my own tastes and enjoyment then I will implement them. But if they are conflicting then everyone should be under no illusions that I will favour myself first. I don't expect any other quest maker to change their quest to suit my tastes over their own and I expect other people to respect my position likewise. Sorry if this sounds harsh and selfish, but its the truth and as a believer in free speech I think its far better I communicate it than hide it. The only concession I will give you is that the quest is not passworded so feel free to change it to suit yourself but it isn't my work anymore if you do that.
    That make sense. It is perfectly fine to make a quest just for your own enjoyment. However, when you share a quest you are opening the door for feedback, criticisms, and praise. Whether or not you care for any of that feedback is completely up to you. I see that it gets to you a lot. Sadly there are a good deal of people in the ZC community who are cruel and mocking with their criticism especially to those for do not agree with them or don't accept their opinions. Instead of holding back sharing your quest you should just learn to recognize valid criticisms and ignore the rude or unhelpful people. Striking back with equally rude and ignorant opinions just creates more unproductive conflict.

    You value challenge above all else. That's fine. You seem to understand that you are in a minority. Most people want more than just a great challenge in a quest. A lot of people have a different opinion on what makes a great challenge. It's fine to only want to hear from kindred spirits but this is an open community. Your wishes aren't going to stop people from sharing their ideas. No one expects you to do anything. That isn't why people share their opinions. It shows true strength to ignore those that are hostile and accept contrary opinions and tastes with grace.

  3. #13
    Octorok Goriya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    I know that various type B quest makers have caved in the past - OUCH! with his AQF and Gleeok once or twice. But as for me...never ever ever ever ever ever ever. I will never make my quest easier to appease everyone else above my own enjoyment. I know that the price I will pay is a very small audience but I am happy to pay that price and that is my decision to make. Please respect it no matter how you feel otherwise.
    So you enjoy badly designed screens then? Those imply a lack of effort, you can still make a challenge quest while making your screen design at least tolerable, OUCH did this, Nightmare did this, so you sure as hell can too.

    Stop assuming that there are "type a" and "type b" players. Why? I don't apply to either category, I'll play whatever as long as it makes for a good recording, but I still at least have a semblance of standards, if a game is too badly designed, it's going to get boring to record, if the game is too well designed, the recording is going to get predictable.

    I refuse to record Liberation of Hyrule not because it's "too hard", but because it's too badly designed. I can record things like Armageddon Quest and James Quest just fine because they're actually well designed challenge quests.

    If you want to make a challenge quest, that's fine, but the least you could do is take criticism on how to make your challenge quest better, and apply it, after all, your standards one day could be different the next day. The original Liberation of Hyrule, as it stood, was a badly designed challenge, and I have no interest playing the sequel, if you're just going to insult everyone.

  4. #14
    Keese James24's Avatar
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    Maybe I should give people a guide on how to criticize my quests and future challenge quests so that they are taken seriously and not ignored on a routine basis like I normally do. First, you must have completed the quest. It is not enough to say you completed the quest, you must prove it by quoting from specific instances in the quest or by making video walkthroughs. Critics who do not quote from specific instances in the quest firstly make their claims of completion highly dubious and do not assist in any future quest creation. If when quoting from specific instances in the quest, the critic makes some error like claiming to have 0 gamed the quest, then I will immediately think they are saying false things and ignore all of their criticism entirely.

    Second, your criticism must not be prejudiced by any perceived or actual insults that I have made. I know that it is incredibly hard for a human to train themselves to "wipe the slate clean" and treat their insulter's quest fairly. But that is what you must do if you ever hope to have me take your criticisms seriously.

    Third, your criticism must be independent and not influenced by the criticisms of anyone else.

    Forth, your criticisms must not be influenced by any external political gain including insulting me in return for insulting you first and gaining popularity amoungst type A players who also think that the quest is bad.

    Fifth, you must understand type B challenge quest culture as I have explained in my initial post. Type A players often criticise my quest solely on its graphics - completely ignoring the fact that the quest wasn't designed to please the eye. So I simply ignore such criticism.

    Sixth, it helps if you have a reputation as an expert challenge quest player like Gleeok or Nightmare has - it greatly expedites the tests that I run to ensure the things above are met. But it is not necessary. I hope everyone understands why I do not take criticisms seriously if they do not pass those tests I have outlined above - though I strongly am in favour of people being allowed to make criticism. Likewise, if I reject your criticism based on having failed one or more of the above tests then please don't be offended.

    If your criticisms pass those tests, then I test to see if the criticism aligns with my own tastes. If my tastes and the criticisms are in conflict then I will favour my own tastes every time. Then, I check to see how much time/energy I would need to spend implementing the criticism - the longer it takes the less inclined I am to take any action. Finally, any changes I make have to be doable in Zelda Classic which has its limitations even with scripting.

  5. #15
    Octorok Shane's Avatar
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    So you are limiting freedom of speech to your will? Riiight.

    I'm stepping in again.

    No review should be affected by an external source, but I don't understand why someone can't review what they've played. "Cultural misunderstandings" or not, all genuine critique tries to helps no matter how you feel. You can reject it but you cannot deny it or say that it's wrong. It's funny how you say the reviews can't be taken seriously; it's just you that needs to take them seriously. And no author should insult anyone in the first place -- you are ranting about conflict and here you are, trying to start it by admitting insults. And people were trying to merely help you in a way you merely disagree with. That makes no sense and is counter-productive. Sorry, but it's true.

    If you want reputation, this is wrong way to do it. If you can't see the truth in reviews, then you are going to keep being angry over nothing.
    Last edited by Shane; 03-03-2015 at 03:50 AM. Reason: Added a bit more.

  6. #16
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    You can't try to dictate terms on what people may say about your quest. All that will do is alienate what fanbase you've got left. And it comes off as arrogant. It doesn't matter what style you make your quest in, or how hard or easy it is. You will get negative criticism. Allowing yourself to be butthurt results in, well, threads like this. If the criticism is unconstructive, accept it and move on. If it has merit, see if you can make it work. And then move on.

    If those who play and enjoy challenge quests dislike your quest, then most likely you need to make some changes. The quest is supposed to be very very difficult. Obviously that's the point of it. But if the design turns it into a grind and forces the player to rely on luck rather than skill, then it warrants changes. Kaizo Mario, for example, is insanely hard, but if you lose, you've got no one to blame but yourself.

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  7. #17
    Octorok Goriya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    Maybe I should give people a guide on how to criticize my quests and future challenge quests so that they are taken seriously and not ignored on a routine basis like I normally do. First, you must have completed the quest. It is not enough to say you completed the quest, you must prove it by quoting from specific instances in the quest or by making video walkthroughs. Critics who do not quote from specific instances in the quest firstly make their claims of completion highly dubious and do not assist in any future quest creation. If when quoting from specific instances in the quest, the critic makes some error like claiming to have 0 gamed the quest, then I will immediately think they are saying false things and ignore all of their criticism entirely.
    With F6ing, I've heard the game is 100% possible to zero game. You can say F6ing is cheating, but what you perceive as cheating, others perceive as an exploit that can be used to help players beat LoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    Second, your criticism must not be prejudiced by any perceived or actual insults that I have made. I know that it is incredibly hard for a human to train themselves to "wipe the slate clean" and treat their insulter's quest fairly. But that is what you must do if you ever hope to have me take your criticisms seriously.
    Oh trust me, my criticisms are not prejudice and will never be prejudice. This applies to any quest that I have played. I will not rate a quest higher because a questmaker is popular, and I will not lower my rating for a quest if I hate the creator. My problems with LoH came before your bad reputation came up, so this argument is still a very bad argument, regardless. [/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    Third, your criticism must be independent and not influenced by the criticisms of anyone else.
    I agree with this, this applies to any of my reviews.

    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    Forth, your criticisms must not be influenced by any external political gain including insulting me in return for insulting you first and gaining popularity amoungst type A players who also think that the quest is bad.
    I don't care about my reputation, because I have no reputation to hold, it's simply respectful to come up with non-biased reviews, and like I've mentioned earlier, I don't apply to either type a or type b's conditions. In other words, I'm a type c player. I know this concept is hard for you to grasp, but everybody is different, there is no concept of "type a" or "type b".

    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    Fifth, you must understand type B challenge quest culture as I have explained in my initial post. Type A players often criticise my quest solely on its graphics - completely ignoring the fact that the quest wasn't designed to please the eye. So I simply ignore such criticism.
    If you're acknowledging the problems with the graphics, you know how to fix them, so do it. Nightmare and OUCH have both made tolerable looking overworlds in their quests, so there's no excuse for you not to.

    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    Sixth, it helps if you have a reputation as an expert challenge quest player like Gleeok or Nightmare has - it greatly expedites the tests that I run to ensure the things above are met. But it is not necessary. I hope everyone understands why I do not take criticisms seriously if they do not pass those tests I have outlined above - though I strongly am in favour of people being allowed to make criticism. Likewise, if I reject your criticism based on having failed one or more of the above tests then please don't be offended.
    I truly don't understand, because the criteria is far too specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by James24 View Post
    If your criticisms pass those tests, then I test to see if the criticism aligns with my own tastes. If my tastes and the criticisms are in conflict then I will favour my own tastes every time. Then, I check to see how much time/energy I would need to spend implementing the criticism - the longer it takes the less inclined I am to take any action. Finally, any changes I make have to be doable in Zelda Classic which has its limitations even with scripting.
    Most criticisms I have are doable in ZC. For example, the game is too luck based: Luck is not a challenge.

  8. #18
    birb Tim's Avatar
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    Regardless of your feelings of getting butthurt, the world is a dick. You can either take the criticism and use it on your next quest or you can sit here and cry how the world hates you.

    I see you've chosen the latter.

    Why does this reek of Sephiroth?

  9. #19
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    @James24 : I really wish you would of just posted something like "Hey guys, I finally finished the remastered DX of my quest 'Liberation of Hyrule'! It is the hardest ZC quest in the known universe so you have to be really, really, really good to even have a chance of beating it! So unless you like this kind of challenge then LoH:IE is not for you. You have been warned. It also adds many different rooms and scripts to fix issues with the first quest. Thank you, and enjoy!"

    I'm sorry that in the past some purezc members were immature and it seems to of really gotten to you in a bad way. It doesn't even matter anymore what the reasons are. I think it's time for everybody to just let it all go; forget and forgive.

    Truth is this quest is very good. Most people won't be able to understand it and even more people won't be able to beat it, but it's still very good non-the-less. James: Thank you for finishing it! :)
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  10. #20
    Keese James24's Avatar
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    Gleeok thank you for your comments. They are much appreciated. If you could, please email me in private about the quest if you wish to discuss it further. The way this topic is going it is going to be locked like in purezc sooner or later.

    I have achieved what I set out to do. My intended audience is playing the quest and the type As have stayed off and not tried to trick me into sending the quest to them. There is nothing further to be gained by this bickering so I won't be visiting the forums anymore. I will leave with one final comment though:

    It seems to me that Zelda Classic players have a culture of entitlement. They seem to expect quest makers to surrender control of their quest making talent and ability to suit their type A tastes "or else". The "or else" meaning bad comments, bad ratings, threats of not playing, rude insults, bad reputation etc... I have not caved in to their demands and I am very proud of that fact. I made LoH:IE my way instead of caving in to the masses like AQF and it is a beautiful quest - enjoyed by a select privileged few players and that is how it will remain. NEVER will I surrender control of my quest and there is nothing anyone can do to change my mind.

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