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Thread: Fifth Quest Planning and Discussion

  1. #21
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    Whew! Okay guys, lets weed out and append to it. I've removed outdated or redundant rules, and added in new rules and requirements. They are also categorized by sections now as well.



    5th-Quest-Contest-Rules-First Draft


    Quest rules
    The following rules may be turned on or off at the quest designers discretion:
    "Fast Dungeon Scrolling", "Smooth Vertical Scrolling", "FFC Are Visible While Screen Is Scrolling", "Use Warp Return Points Only", "Invincible Link flickers", "Warps Ignore Arrival X/Y Position When Setting Continue Screen", "Can't push blocks into unwalkable combos", "Push blocks don't move when blocked", "Damage Combos Work On Layers", "Combo cycling on layers", "Scrolling warps don't set the continue point", "Use Old-style warp detection", "Rings affect damage combos", "Multi-directional traps", "Fast Heart refill".

    The following rules must be ENABLED: "Items Disappear during hold-up".
    All other quest rules must be DISABLED.



    Graphics

    The original NES Zelda graphical style must remain intact. What this means is that you must use the Classic NES tileset, and are allowed
    to create new graphics as long as the changes are minor (judges discretion) and said changes maintain the aesthetic style of the original
    game (also judge's discretion).



    Shops

    You can edit the Shop Types, but shops can't sell "+Max" items (heart containers), Triforce fragments, the big Triforce, the Dust Pile, the Rupee items (?!), Arrow Ammunition or Magic Jars (because the True Arrows / Magic rules are off), and Misc items.
    * The same restrictions apply to "Take Only One" Room Types, but they can have "+Max" items in them.
    * The same restrictions also apply to Item Drop Sets. Also, Item Drop Sets can't contain items with the "Equipment Item" flag checked.



    Enemies

    New enemies ARE allowed, and are in fact, mandatory. At least three new enemy types must be introduced. (In the same spirit as 2nd quest which introduced Sword-Stalfos, and Blue/Red Bubbles.) New enemies introduced from the 4th quest are not to be considered "new" and will not count towards this total, or otherwise detract from your own customized creations as well. (You've played the 4th quest, right?)
    However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.

    Specific Enemy Rules
    * No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid). Also, no enemies that split into bosses, and no enemies that grow into bosses.
    * Custom bosses (defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.



    Items

    New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is likely not.

    Specific Item Rules
    * No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
    * No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
    * Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.



    Overworld

    In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
    Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place. You can change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool.

    Specific Overworld Rules
    * One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
    "Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
    * One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
    * One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.



    Dungeons

    Dungeons may be made as large or small as one wants and with any room configuration one wants, but the design of any particular room must be consistent with the first four quests. This means one wall on each side, one door of any type at most situated on a wall. The contents of a particular room are left to the designs of the quest maker, but as with the graphics and added items/enemies, faithfulness to the NES design is paramount. Conveyors may be okay. Large superstructures that require the use of several items to destroy may not.

    Specific Dungeon Rules
    * One DMap per dungeon level! And all DMap Flags must be disabled for dungeon DMaps.
    * The Continue screen must be the dungeon's inner entrance screen.
    * The Compass Marker screen must be the Triforce Fragment's screen.
    * The Triforce Fragment's screen must warp Link to the dungeon's entrance in the overworld. (This is done by setting Side Warp A, by the way.)
    * The statue combos in the dungeon's inner entrance screen and the Triforce Fragment's screen cannot shoot fireballs.
    * No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.
    * All dungeon DMaps must be "NES Dungeon". So no Interiors with persistent secrets and non-functioning doors.
    * Don't use the "Treat as Interior Room" flag to bypass various limitations of the "NES Dungeon" DMap type, either.
    * There must be exactly 9 levels; no more, no less. Each level must have a map and a compass. You must use boss keys and boss doors. Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss, one triforce piece, and at least one collectable item. The ninth level must only be accessible by collecting all eight triforce pieces. The boss of level 9 must be Ganon, and the
    final goal of level 9, and the quest, is to save Zelda.
    * Levels must use one of the NES dungeon palettes, and two or more levels can't use the same palette. Level 9 must use "White/Red".
    * One Ganon per quest, and one Zelda per quest.
    * A "Level 9 Entrance" screen must appear somewhere in Level 9 between the dungeon entrance and Ganon's screen, and can only be used once.


    FFCs and Scripts
    FFCs and scripts ARE also allowed (Heck even the first quest uses a script to simulate a bug found in the NES version!) with the following exceptions:
    * Scripts may not be used to bypass or otherwise ignore any other contest rules.
    * Scripts should be used sparringly.
    What is permissible script usage you say? Well, for starters, scripting a giant man-eating plant or a wall that shoots streams of fireballs will not be acceptable. Scripting a door that spawns enemies will likely not be allowed. Adding a script to simulate a puzzle found in 2nd quest where you can only go to the nearest three of four immediate rooms without requiring to fill the room with push blocks might be okay. (honestly, I don't know!)


    Other
    Link can only use NES-style movement and cannot use any of the 2.5 specific modifications (16x16 Link, big link, etc).
    Sound Effects cannot be changed.
    The Sub-screen may be edited to accommodate new items but must retain the general structure of the original.
    New music may be used as long as long it fits in the context of an NES game.
    No string control codes, and no lowercase characters in strings. No DMap Intro strings, and no DMap-specific custom minimaps. And no DMap item disabling!


    Other misc. criteria for rejection
    * If your quest is too easy it will be rejected.
    * If your quest is too hard it wil be rejected. (Although I have to note that the hardest entry to date was AlphaDawg's entry... and that won!)

    * Note - Rejected quests are not disqualified. If your quest is rejected for one of possible various reasons (also reserved for judges discretion) that doesn't break any obvious rules stated above, you will have an opportunity to fix any problems and resubmit the quest, no questions asked.


    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Gleeok; 08-03-2013 at 02:17 AM.
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  2. #22
    Cor Blimey! CJC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleeok View Post
    However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.
    There goes my idea to use Death Knights and enemy placement flags to create deadly enemy barriers on the overworld map!

    ...Just kidding, I think this contest is a little too restrictive for me. Plus, I've never made a quest that was more difficult than eating a sandwich.

  3. #23
    OBEY GOVERNMENT GOD ZC Developer
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJC View Post
    There goes my idea to use Death Knights and enemy placement flags to create deadly enemy barriers on the overworld map!

    ...Just kidding, I think this contest is a little too restrictive for me. Plus, I've never made a quest that was more difficult than eating a sandwich.
    I'll have you know that this is the least restrictive guideline yet!

    (What is too restrictive, exactly?)
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    Bloodlines Of The Illuminati -Fritz Springmeier
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    The World Order, A Study in the Hegemony of Parasitism -Eustace Mullins
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    The WWI Conspiracy: Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3 "A New World Order"

    �The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating.� �Thomas Jefferson
    �It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system for, if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.� �Henry Ford
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  4. #24
    Cor Blimey! CJC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleeok View Post
    (What is too restrictive, exactly?)
    It's not something that can be changed, given the nature of the contest. The classic overworld and tileset are just tools that I'm not comfortable using.
    But if it makes you feel better, I WILL be actively participating in the other bundled quest project, "Brand New World"



    On an unrelated note, I think Fifth Quest's icon should be Link and Zelda doing a high-five! ...Or maybe just holding their hands in the air, like at the end of the game.

  5. #25
    AGN's resident fox. Orithan's Avatar
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    A couple of questions:
    Are you allowed to create multi-stage enemies? Say I want to recreate the Kandokyan enemy from Oracle of Ages (that candle-head enemy seen in levels 6 and 8) and I want to use three separate slots in the enemy editor to create it; A first stage where you must light it's wick up (with a Candle or something similar) where it "splits" into a second stage where it runs around madly and is invincible until it "tribbles" into a 0hp "third stage" enemy with its death effect set to "Explode", would that be allowed?
    Are you allowed to modify existing enemies or items. Say I want to nerf the Wand to put into Level 3 and make the Blue Lynel immune to the Boomerang, would you allow that?
    The Legend of Zelda: Zelda's Last Wish.
    Progress: 99% complete. (Overworld: 100%, Dungeons: 99% overall).
    ETA: Pending.
    Beta/Demo: Out now!


  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleeok
    * No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.
    This is actually the only one I disagree with. I think, properly done, this could be used as an extension to the classic feel.

    And on the topic of mazes, I once made a dungeon with a maze to solve in it, and I felt like that worked really well.

    As for scripting, would it be acceptable to make a scripted fireball shooter, to more closely match the behavior of the original LoZ statues?
    (At one time I had modified Saffith's Homing Fireball Shooter script to add parameters for their safe zone and firing angle, but I seem to have lost that file with my old computer).

  7. #27
    OBEY GOVERNMENT GOD ZC Developer
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    Just a quick note that I am only responding based on the current state of the 5th rules, which may change until the contest actually begins. (And probably will slightly change)


    Quote Originally Posted by Imzogelmo View Post
    This is actually the only one I disagree with. I think, properly done, this could be used as an extension to the classic feel.

    And on the topic of mazes, I once made a dungeon with a maze to solve in it, and I felt like that worked really well.
    The "fall from ceilings" pattern rule might be questionable. Sure, I can see how if you are in a level B1 then enemies could fall down from above, but by NES logic and limitations it does seem like a stretch.

    Mazes are fine! (Just don't overdo it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Imzogelmo View Post
    As for scripting, would it be acceptable to make a scripted fireball shooter, to more closely match the behavior of the original LoZ statues?
    (At one time I had modified Saffith's Homing Fireball Shooter script to add parameters for their safe zone and firing angle, but I seem to have lost that file with my old computer).
    I think fireballs should be consistent with the other quests. That said, I think that this bug is still around in ZC so we should probably just fix it directly instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orithan View Post
    A couple of questions:
    Are you allowed to create multi-stage enemies? Say I want to recreate the Kandokyan enemy from Oracle of Ages (that candle-head enemy seen in levels 6 and 8) and I want to use three separate slots in the enemy editor to create it; A first stage where you must light it's wick up (with a Candle or something similar) where it "splits" into a second stage where it runs around madly and is invincible until it "tribbles" into a 0hp "third stage" enemy with its death effect set to "Explode", would that be allowed?
    Why, I believe you can make that enemy type according to the current rules. So yes you can! (Just be sure to observe any later suggestions for misuse)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orithan View Post
    Are you allowed to modify existing enemies or items. Say I want to nerf the Wand to put into Level 3 and make the Blue Lynel immune to the Boomerang, would you allow that?
    Sure.
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    Bloodlines Of The Illuminati -Fritz Springmeier
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    The World Order, A Study in the Hegemony of Parasitism -Eustace Mullins
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    The WWI Conspiracy: Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3 "A New World Order"

    �The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating.� �Thomas Jefferson
    �It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system for, if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.� �Henry Ford
    �Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants.� �Benjamin Franklin

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  8. #28
    Floormaster Imzogelmo's Avatar
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    I'm all for having a 'fixed' shooter class, but since this bug has been around since the beginning of (ZC) time, my suggested fix would be to have the projectile shooter enemy class have miscellaneous attributes that will cover the needed functionality. And really, I don't expect that to be fixed anytime soon, so I have a workaround.

    Specifically:
    1. Safe zone distance. This is a distance that, if Link is inside of it, the shooter will remain idle. For compatibility purposes, this is a square around the position of the shooter (which is not aligned with the statue, you'll notice). (Also note, a square is a lot easier to figure than a circle). By default this is 32 pixels.

    2. Permissible directions. This is the number of divisions of a circle that the shooter is allowed to choose from. For instance, using 4 would allow it to pick one of the 4 cardinal directions. I believe the NES game could choose 16ths of a circle, meaning there were some spots where you were always safe even outside the safe zone, due to rounding. Yep, that's right, it's not always able to point directly at you.

    3. Angle offset. This goes along with the one above, but, imagine you want it to fire in 4 diagonals instead of cardinals. Use an angle offset of 45 to achieve that.

    And I'm sure there are countless other options that people may want, but that's what scripting is for. :)

    EDIT: I'll put the modified version up somewhere but for now just search on purezc for Saffith's HomingFireballShooter script if interested. All options but angle offset are included.
    Last edited by Imzogelmo; 08-02-2013 at 10:10 PM.

  9. #29
    OBEY GOVERNMENT GOD ZC Developer
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    Okay I see what you are saying now. Yes, that's one of the reasons scripting should be allowed. Not to add grandiose changes, but as a means to subtly change behaviors that may be otherwise difficult using the predefined mechanics of ZQuest.
    Not entirely sure if some limit should be imposed to the use of scripts though. (It's a tricky subject and some things may have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.)


    I know the rules are a bit long, but the aim is to make sure entries follow suite within the style of the first 4 quests and NES designs, but still allow a great amount of freedom and leeway for users. (The quest rule section might need a rewrite though.) We'll definitely leave this open for a few weeks in order to fine tune. All opinions and suggestions are welcome.
    Join the Gleeok Book Club - It's easy, all you have to do is read...

    "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" (British Royal Institute, 1906)
    None Dare Call It Conspiracy -Gary Allen
    Deliberate Dumbing Down of America -Charlotte Iserbyt
    Morals and Dogma -Albert Pike
    Bloodlines Of The Illuminati -Fritz Springmeier
    The Rape Of Justice -Eustace Mullins
    The World Order, A Study in the Hegemony of Parasitism -Eustace Mullins
    The Most Dangerous Superstition -Larken Rose
    "War is a Racket" �Major General Smedley Butler

    The WWI Conspiracy: Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3 "A New World Order"

    �The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating.� �Thomas Jefferson
    �It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system for, if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.� �Henry Ford
    �Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants.� �Benjamin Franklin

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  10. #30
    Username Kaiser SUCCESSOR's Avatar
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    Are you implying scripting cannot be used for scripted enemies and bosses? I mean nothing outrageous but most the built in bosses are pretty lame.

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