Official 5th quest? Should we have one?

[Gleeok]

No problem.

So, possible ideas thus far include:

contest-wise: 5th quest, or, a more modern version with all new features of 2.5 with updated graphics.
community quest-wise: Basically resurrect neo-first, or possibly something else.

With option 1-B: Possible overworld sub-contest. The winner of which, will be the archetypal overworld for the main contest. (Did I get this right?)

[Glenn the Great]

Contest or no, I think we should be including quality controlled quests with the ZC download package so that new players aren't left to fend for themselves in the Quest Database so much.
The reason why ZC only comes packaged with 4 quests (including the obligatory 1st and 2nd quests) is a relic of a bygone age.
Zelda Classic was released during a time when 99% of Internet users were on dial-up, and efforts were made to keep the download package small.
The download package is 8.5 MB now: that would have been a 1 hour download for me 10 years ago, more like 10 seconds now.

I am definitely a fan of holding more quest contests where the prize is having your quest packaged with all future versions of ZC.

I don't think that the quest needs to be specifically a 5th, 6th, 7th quest, as I agree with Nightmare and some others that that concept has been played-out.
I DO however think that entries need to be novel creations (nothing already submitted to one of the big quest databases), because the reason for these contests should be to spur activity from quest creators and encourage new people to get involved.
A lot of work happened when we held these contests in the past, because quest creators have a deadline to beat so they don't just meander in development hell. I know the only time I ever completed a ZC quest was during the 3rd Quest Contest when I had a deadline in front of me.

I don't think that community quests would be practical for entry in a contest setting as it's too hard to balance everyone's real-life schedules and varying levels of commitment when faced with a deadline.
I do however think that if a high profile community quest like NeoFirst were to be completed, it could be honored with inclusion in the download package on a case-by-case basis.

[Nightmare]

I'd still like to get some other quests packaged in with Zelda Classic that are not of the 5th Quest contest.

Before this gets derailed, created a new topic: http://armageddongames.net/showthrea...cial-quests%29

-James

[SUCCESSOR]

No problem.

So, possible ideas thus far include:

contest-wise: 5th quest, or, a more modern version with all new features of 2.5 with updated graphics.
community quest-wise: Basically resurrect neo-first, or possibly something else.

With option 1-B: Possible overworld sub-contest. The winner of which, will be the archetypal overworld for the main contest. (Did I get this right?)

Three great starts for just starting to brain storm. I wonder if we should set aside the idea of a community built quest as it would be the most work and isn't really a contest. I'd love to see all ideas. Not at once. We should focus on getting one idea going.

5th quest would obviously be the easiest. I think 3rd quest increased difficulty over 2nd. Did 4th continue this? Would 5th? Should we change the name to avoid implications? Also I would like to see more leniency on editing the overworld. I don't know how strict this was in the past. Could you change what screen link started on? Palettes?

A new modern zc contest obviously poses more chalenges. Overworlds are hard, number one. graphical direction and limitations another.

I don't think that community quests would be practical for entry in a contest setting as it's too hard to balance everyone's real-life schedules and varying levels of commitment when faced with a deadline.
I do however think that if a high profile community quest like NeoFirst were to be completed, it could be honored with inclusion in the download package on a case-by-case basis.

Impractical maybe but I wouldn't want to exclude groups from entering contests. I thinks its the persons own responsibily yo weigh the benefits and drawbacks.

Edit: as always posting more than a couple lines from my phone is a nightmare. Half my post pretty much disappeared. I tried to fix it I hope it makes some sense. I need to get internet at my new place soon.

[Glenn the Great]

Also I would like to see more leniency on editing the overworld. I don't know how strict this was in the past. Could you change what screen link started on? Palettes?

I can tell you that during the 3rd Quest Contest the rules of design were extremely strict.
The liberties allowed to be taken with the design had to dovetail very tightly with those taken by Nintendo for the 2nd quest.

Some specific examples include:

- Starting screen, palettes, and sounds had to stay the same.
- No new graphics or mechanics could be introduced. This was controversial at the time, considering that the 2nd quest introduced the walk-through-walls mechanic as well as a few others.
- Changes to screens on the overworld were very limited. Perhaps to 2 screens, and the new design had to be a clone of some other screen.
- Secrets were limited to one per screen (caves, burnable bushes, whistle triggers, etc)
- In the dungeons, every screen's design had to be a re-use of a design found in either the 1st or 2nd quest.

It had the effect of focusing peoples' designs and creating a predictable experience, but I found it to be unnecessarily stifling.
I remember struggling hard to find a way to work some small measure of novelty into my quest, and thus needing to explain every idea to a judge for approval lest my entry be disqualified, which resulted in every single idea of mine being shot down save for my Level 9 being allowed to have two entrances.

I don't know what the rules were for the 4th quest contest. I do feel that a "5th Quest" should be generally consistent with quests 1 through 4, but I think that new mechanics should not be ruled out entirely the way they were in the 3rd quest contest. In other words I think each successive quest should feel like an evolution of the one that came before it.

[Nightmare]

I can tell you that during the 3rd Quest Contest the rules of design were extremely strict.
The liberties allowed to be taken with the design had to dovetail very tightly with those taken by Nintendo for the 2nd quest.

Some specific examples include:

- Starting screen, palettes, and sounds had to stay the same.
- No new graphics or mechanics could be introduced. This was controversial at the time, considering that the 2nd quest introduced the walk-through-walls mechanic as well as a few others.
- Changes to screens on the overworld were very limited. Perhaps to 2 screens, and the new design had to be a clone of some other screen.
- Secrets were limited to one per screen (caves, burnable bushes, whistle triggers, etc)
- In the dungeons, every screen's design had to be a re-use of a design found in either the 1st or 2nd quest.

It had the effect of focusing peoples' designs and creating a predictable experience, but I found it to be unnecessarily stifling.
I remember struggling hard to find a way to work some small measure of novelty into my quest, and thus needing to explain every idea to a judge for approval lest my entry be disqualified, which resulted in every single idea of mine being shot down save for my Level 9 being allowed to have two entrances.

I don't know what the rules were for the 4th quest contest. I do feel that a "5th Quest" should be generally consistent with quests 1 through 4, but I think that new mechanics should not be ruled out entirely the way they were in the 3rd quest contest. In other words I think each successive quest should feel like an evolution of the one that came before it.

I disagree Glenn. Honestly, what made the 3rd Quest contest is when we were all like hardcore Zelda fans. The fanbase of Zelda Classic in today's world doesn't exactly cater for that, and there's only so much blood you can draw from a rock. I don't even think it should be a "5th" Quest, it should be a custom quest contest, using all the new features.

I wasn't around for the 4th Quest, so I don't know much about this, but I think a full custom quest contest should be the big thing, and something other than the classic tileset please.

-James

[Glenn the Great]

I disagree Glenn. Honestly, what made the 3rd Quest contest is when we were all like hardcore Zelda fans. The fanbase of Zelda Classic in today's world doesn't exactly cater for that, and there's only so much blood you can draw from a rock. I don't even think it should be a "5th" Quest, it should be a custom quest contest, using all the new features.

I wasn't around for the 4th Quest, so I don't know much about this, but I think a full custom quest contest should be the big thing, and something other than the classic tileset please.

-James

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, as I already said before that I thought the idea of an "Xth Quest" was played-out.
I would rather see people be allowed to make full creative use of the features offered by version 2.5 or whatever the latest version happens to be at the time.

Maybe what you're disagreeing with is my critique of how the 3rd Quest Contest was handled, in which case I'll add some context to that by reminding that you were the judge who set forth most of those rules and you were also the one who overruled on my design ideas.

[Nightmare]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, as I already said before that I thought the idea of an "Xth Quest" was played-out.
I would rather see people be allowed to make full creative use of the features offered by version 2.5 or whatever the latest version happens to be at the time.

Maybe what you're disagreeing with is my critique of how the 3rd Quest Contest was handled, in which case I'll add some context to that by reminding that you were the judge who set forth most of those rules and you were also the one who overruled on my design ideas.

I was disagreeing with the strict rules for this time around. Back in the day everyone had their dream of making the 3rd Quest: Now it's kinda played out. That's all I'm saying.

I wasn't around for the 4th Quest and still haven't played it, so I don't know much about it, and I still have Titan's Quest and Hidden Duality: Director's Cut to finish as promises, and game dev school is still eating a ton of time to the point I can't participate in something of that magnitude. And what do I have, six projects? New, New 2, JQ, JQ-2, and Demo 1st and 2nd (not to mention updates)? I have six quests in the DB are going to be, I think I've done more than my share of quests for this project.

I personally like the Classic Tileset and especially the Demo Tileset and classic style quests, I'm a classic NES head, I competed on Twin Galaxies for a while before their morals went south last year. But after talking to a few people here at the school about it, they say someone should go "all out" with all the tools necessary. I'm also not much of an artist and have poor artistic skills as well by far.

-James

[Glenn the Great]

I was disagreeing with the strict rules for this time around. Back in the day everyone had their dream of making the 3rd Quest: Now it's kinda played out. That's all I'm saying.

Okay.


Changing gears here a bit, one thing I would NOT want to see is a rule *requiring* quest entries to make use of every feature available.

While use of the new features should definitely be allowed and encouraged, forcing people to shoe-horn a checklist of features into their quest would run the risk of making the quests feel unnecessarily gimmicky.
The quests should be judged on how they stand up as a whole... someone could hypothetically make a quest that is light on new features but plays as a better overall experience than the other entries, and I think that would be OK.

[Gleeok]

For those who didn't play the 3rd/4th quest:

The 3rd quest was "spiritually" similar to the NES while increasing the various challenge/layout elements about as proportional as the 2cd quest did for the first. Apparently there were a strict set of rules that had to be obeyed while designing a 3rd quest entry also.

For the 4th quest, the rules were much more lenient. The 4th introduced Boss keys, more liberal dungeon design, item/shop placement, and use of the enemy editor.


Personally, I don't think the 4th should be the last one. Difficulty-wise it's about the equivalent of the 2cd quest, and there's just too many cool ways to push it to the next level. It would be a little anti-climactic to leave it there. There's tons of new "gimmicks" that 2.5 would be able to add, even without scripting, such as how the Stalfos in the 2cd quest now shot swords and the bubbles were a completely new type by being split into red/blue, and so forth.

I say, it should go out with a bang. You can use whatever features you want as long as it fits in a cohesive manner.