Religion, or the lack thereof

[Darth Marsden]

I've had a busy weekend. First we headed up to Leicester for the renewal of wedding vows of some family friends, then by a return journey back home to see my niece's first communion. Two different but important events, and at both of them, I very much felt out of place. I know exactly why as well - religion.

I'm a Christian. Church of England, to be prisice. But the thing is, I'm not a very GOOD Christian. I believe in God, I believe in Jesus and I believe in science. This leads to a few conflicts which I've been thinking about over the past few weeks - what happens when we die, etc. To be honest, I want to believe I'll go to Heaven, but I know that there's nothing. No life after death, no eternal paradise, nothing. That's it. End game.

So I'm having a very minor crisis of faith here, and we go to some very moving renewal of vows. Very touching - we've know the family ever since we were young and we do still visit back and forth a couple of times a year - but there was a fair mention of God. And I felt totally out of place singing hyms about His/Her love for us, and how the third person in a relationship is God. It feels wrong, because I don't know if I believe that.

The next day we're at the first communion of my niece. Very sweet, very touching, la de da. Same problem though - we're singing songs about how the Lord God loves us all, praying for His/Her forgiveness, giving thanks to Him/Her. And I feel horrible singing along to this because I don't believe this at all. A part of me accepts that there could well be a great being watching over us, but that for the most part, what people do in the name of their faith is way too much.

Then the kicker. The Act of Faith. It reads, and I quote from the booklets they gave us - 'We believe God made us. We believe Jesus died and rose to save us. We believe the Spirit gives us life. This is our faith. This is the faith of the church. We are proud to profess it, in Christ Jesus our lord. Amen.'

And I don't believe this at all. God made us? We were made by a sperm and an egg. Our very existence at all is due to evolution, not because some cosmic being rolled up his sleeves and said 'Right, I want someone to worship me. Let's call them... Human Beings.' It's rubbish.

I accept that other people may believe this. I'm not denying them that - it's their right to believe whatever they want to. But hearing things like this constantly for over an hour makes you wonder who came up with stuff like this. Why did they do it? What was the point?

...so don't mind me. Just a little worried that I won't go to Heaven - if indeed it exists - because I don't pray to Jesus every night before bed, or want to be blessed in Church. Eep.

[ShadowTiger]

To be honest, I want to believe I'll go to Heaven, but I know that there's nothing. No life after death, no eternal paradise, nothing. That's it. End game.

(Key Word bolded and underlined.) Do we? How do we know? I don't really want to get all religious-zealot here, nor do I want to assume, or really get in deep down with the topic of faith. It's just that we don't know if God exists or not. We don't even know if God will ever be within our technological capabilities to be unearthed. Whereas the ancient people of the past thought that the stars were fixed in their positions in the sky, these days we know better. Much, much better, and about much, much more. Maybe we'll happen to find God one day. Or, maybe God is just a made up story to keep people in line that descended from the cavemans' beliefs in the world based on having nothing else. (Read Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean M. Auel for an example.)

Then there's the theory that God is just testing us all, and won't come out to any given person even if they want proof that he exists so people can actually worship him rather than wonder if he exists. Even with such a virtuous act in their hearts, it's still not worthy of being shown to. I'm in that boat, really.

[AtmaWeapon]

Actually the conflict and its resolution are much more simplified than your post implies.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus and I believe in science. [...]

This paragraph is fine and in my opinion normal; I think many Christians today struggle between science and faith and, without derailing into a ridiculously detailed discussion of my beliefs I further believe the only accurate resolution is to rely on Biblical principles for matters of ethics and morality and leave science to creation, origin of man, etc. where it has solid evidence.

Now here is where your conflict really lies:

I felt totally out of place singing hyms about His/Her love for us, and how the third person in a relationship is God. It feels wrong, because I don't know if I believe that.

A part of me accepts that there could well be a great being watching over us, but that for the most part, what people do in the name of their faith is way too much.

These two statements contradict the first. Fundamental to being a Christian (even a BAD Christian) is the basic belief in God and Jesus. God's position and purpose in life to the believer is well defined in Biblical texts, and failure to accept this notion means your system of belief is something that is not technically Christian.

It's not bad that you struggle with your faith; in my opinion the only way to know you believe the right thing is to struggle with it and attack your own beliefs to see if you can come up with a valid defense. It seems to me, though, that the source of your discomfort is revealed in this statement:

Just a little worried that I won't go to Heaven - if indeed it exists - because I don't pray to Jesus every night before bed, or want to be blessed in Church. Eep.

Which, at least by my doctrine, shows a failure to understand Jesus' message. Belief that He atoned for your sins and the desires to live a sinless life and have repentance for the sins you do commit are all that are required. Prayer is good, church attendance promotes spiritual growth, but Jesus warned against placing more emphasis on the ritual than the worship.

So really the solution is to do some inner searching. Granted, how you go about it can influence the outcome as if you consult evangelical atheists they will be sure to help weaken your Christian position but an evangelical Christian would be more likely to help strengthen your Christian position.

Decide for yourself if you truly believe there is nothing after death. If so, then ask yourself if the conflict between this belief and Christian principles is so great that you cannot continue to call yourself a believer. If so, then you must make yourself comfortable with becoming more of a secular person. I could provide several personal opinions on this struggle, but my personal advice would be quite biased so I feel it would be more appropriate to give it if specifically asked rather than starting this thread down the path we all know it will tread.

[Beldaran]

You are correct in your doubt. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the notion that a magical being controls everything. It is impossible to know what happens after death, but the most plausible scenario is that we simply cease to exist.

People who believe in god are no different than tribal mystics who believe in voodoo, or medieval serfs who believe in wizards and witches, or the Greeks who believed in Apollo or Zues. It's just different flavors of the same delusional fantasy.

[Mitsukara]

Well, I've been rambling on this subject quite a bit lately, but what the hay.

My parents are, of course, Christian, and right up until the age of 12 I believed everything they told me. But then, of course, I experienced some changes, and realized some things about who I am and who I want to be, that came into direct conflict with it. Christianity != Transsexuality being okay (although to get technical the bible says nothing about it). At first, I just hoped that maybe if I was good and kind, God would love me for who I was- although that already contradicted what my parents had been telling me (they don't think good acts and behavior are enough, see).

But the more I saw of the world, the less I was satisfied with that compromise. It culminated in the death of someone I loved, which reminded me all too bluntly how unsure I was (and am) about not only those beliefs, but whether any afterlife exists.

I've come to the conclusion that, to be perfectly honest: I don't know. I don't know if god exists, I don't know if some other religion is correct, I don't know if the afterlife exists, I don't even know if "magic" exists. I don't know if ghosts exist, I don't know if souls exist. I don't know what consciousness really is or what makes me me. Technically I don't know if anyone else has a sense of perspective like I do, though I feel fairly confident that at least that's the case.

So I just try to go with what's in my heart and mind to live life. I try to look at everything hypothetically, because if you want to get really elaborate, I don't know that anything I perceive is being seen correctly. But to function rationally I just have to guess based on what I think I see. I use logic as well as I can and go with what my feelings say, except for one "moral" I try to hold myself to. I could try to word it myself, but it was worded ingeniously for me many centuries ago: "And ye harm none, do what ye will". If I think anything I do or see might hurt somebody, I'm very, very careful about it, and try to find the least hurtful way, or at least the best compromise. Going on this same reasoning I try not to let my anger lose on anybody TOO strongly unless I think it will accomplish something, so typically I just wind up venting and ranting to myself or an empty/mostly empty chatroom or somesuch.

However, if I think I can help someone in some way, without screwing things up, and that such help is wanted or needed, I try to do my best with that, also.

I am an agnostic. I do not know anything for absolute certain one way or another, so I just try to live my life as myself in the most harmless way I can. I try to enjoy life, experience what it has to offer; I love certain people and enjoy certain things, and I have an identity which is very important to me. I also try to add something to it for other people, when I can. I hope that there is an afterlife, because I think it would be pretty awful for everyone to ultimately lose their lives and everything they ever did and were to just be gone forever eventually, but I don't really know if there is one or not. I hope so.

[rock_nog]

Why Belderan, you speak as if those things aren't real. You know, I've always wondered why you hate religion so much. I mean, granted, it can be twisted to cause horrible things, but it can also help people get through life. I just don't see why it matters whether what people believe in is real. I mean, if it's real to you, does it matter?

I mean, I used to believe in UFOs, and now I don't. However, I don't see what the harm was in my believing. I mean, in the end, it really didn't make a difference. It's not like I would've been a better person or anything for never having believed in UFOs. I just figure, as long as you're not using your beliefs to justify actions, then there isn't a problem, right? And I'm sorry, this whole darn post is off-topic.

[AtmaWeapon]

You are correct in your doubt. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the notion that a magical being controls everything. It is impossible to know what happens after death, but the most plausible scenario is that we simply cease to exist.

People who believe in god are no different than tribal mystics who believe in voodoo, or medieval serfs who believe in wizards and witches, or the Greeks who believed in Apollo or Zues. It's just different flavors of the same delusional fantasy.

This is what I had in mind when I mentioned "don't ask an evangelical athiest". I was waiting on this cutie pie to post and what do you know his troll was clockwork.

You can be open-minded and decide for yourself what you think is right in this universe or you can be "open-minded" and "rational" and continuously attack points of view that challenge your own by dismissing them because they have no proof, when one of the first things I learned in logic classes was that issues of faith are not debatable as faith is placed on things in situations where logic provides no explanation. Those pesky Christians are always bothering the open-minded and forcing their beliefs upon people who weren't really interested in hearing them in the first place, Beldaran is a good example of one of those evangelical Christ-- oh wait.

Also a point of curiosity Beldaran: you made sure to not capitalize the word "god" but took great care to capitalize other mystical beings such as "Apollo" and "Zues" [sic] though you couldn't be bothered enough to spell Zeus properly. One should take care when expressing one's angst towards all things not athiest to provide equal disrespect to all belief systems, or possibly face unfair lack of discrimination lawsuits in courts eternal. Also I might suggest the cute substitute "g-d" that people seem fond of using that really sticks it to the big man up in the clouds! He gets so mad when people leave that letter out he has something like 12 more hurricane Katrinas planed over the next decade.

[Beldaran]

I don't hate people who believe in god, just like I don't hate people who have AIDS. However, I do dislike AIDS and believe it is destructive and terrifying, just like I think irrational beliefs are destructive and terrifying (terryfing that people could be so stupid).

I purposely don't capitalize "god" to show my utter disdain for the concept of god. I don't have any disdain for the fictional character of Zeus because his followers are not currently destroying the world I live in.

If you want to be irrational and mentally backwards, that's your perogative. It's my perogative to speak out against things that are unsupported by scientific evidence that cause real harm to societies.

I hope people that believe in magic will come to see that humans can move past the need for that mental crutch and move on to bigger and better ways of seeing the universe.

As an example of the utter mental depravity of belief, consider that it took the Church until 1832 to remove Galileo's work from its list of books which Catholics were forbidden to read at the risk of dire punishment of their immortal souls.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe. " - Carl Sagan

[Pineconn]

Too many rhetorical questions alert!!

Religion is just... difficult to interpret and understand, IMO. No one will ever be able to comprehend it 100%, not even myself. But I particularly detest how people mandate the belief in God. For instance, the Boy Scout Law is...

A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Reverent? What if I don't believe in God? I, too, am agnostic, for the record. What makes me a worse Scout if I don't believe in God than the other guy that does? Sometimes, religion is much more troublesome than it is worth. The Crusades? The Nazis? The Israeli-Pakistani conflict? All due to the hatred of another's religion. Additionally, the Church rejected the idea of a heliocentric solar system because it somehow defied Him. And who was right?

Which brings me to the point. If religion did not exist, would the world be in better shape?

[EDIT: Agh, Beldaran beat me to the church thing. A lousy two minutes.]

[Aegix Drakan]

>_> Questioning and finding answers is pretty standard, actually. I consider myself a Christian (I can say the apostle's creed without any second thoughts/doubts) but...I don't really go by the book. In fact, some of the beliefs I have are a bit odd.

I know that there's nothing. No life after death, no eternal paradise, nothing. That's it. End game.

As ST so boldly pointed out (no pun intended), we DON'T know. We probably never will, because those who DO know are in no condition to tell us.

Our very existence at all is due to evolution, not because some cosmic being rolled up his sleeves and said 'Right, I want someone to worship me. Let's call them... Human Beings.' It's rubbish.

>_> I think you're taking it a little too literally. I don't think the Adam and Eve interpretation "works". Two humans CANNOT create an entire species. Plus, we'd all be related to each other and having kids with each...(actually...that explains a lot of stuf...)
*AHEM* In any case, Yeah, evolution is the only really good explanation. so how does God come in? A few little nudges here and there along the evolutionary process and voila. Here we are. Why? to create an intelligent race to...to do what, I have no idea.

Just a little worried that I won't go to Heaven

>_> Name me a contemporary (rational) Christian who ISN'T worried about that. Worries me too (for other reasons). It sccres us because we have no bloddy idea aobut the next life. how do we know it's there? how do we know what it's like? how do we know we won't just end up in the underworld?

WE DON'T. Hence why we must find our own answers.

And plus, I don't think that you have to be a Catholic, or even religious at all to move on. I velieve it just depends on how you live your life. I think that anyone (even, let's say...people who believe the aliens made us) can find the next life, as long as they lived their lives well.


@ beldaran: Cease to exist? Meh, I don't think that. When a person dies, all the energy leaves their body.
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.
Ergo, we continue to exist, but in a different state altogether.
*shurg* that's my take on it.

So I just try to go with what's in my heart and mind to live life....

If I think anything I do or see might hurt somebody, I'm very, very careful about it, and try to find the least hurtful way, or at least the best compromise.

I am an agnostic. I do not know anything for absolute certain one way or another, so I just try to live my life as myself in the most harmless way I can. I try to enjoy life, experience what it has to offer; I love certain people and enjoy certain things, and I have an identity which is very important to me. I also try to add something to it for other people, when I can.

...

>_> Uhh...does that make me an agnostican christian, or what? A lot of what you just said reminds me of how I function.