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Thread: Some thoughts about overworld-making

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    Some thoughts about overworld-making

    Here's what I've done so far in the overworld-making department. Not much, but it's a start, and a directed one at that.
    None of the secret caves or houses have interiors yet. (If I can make them, on what map should I put them?)

    * I've got a problem: see screen 23. Currently there aren't enough "ladder or hookshot" typed mountain combos to allow me to make Link able to hookshot between the two raised platforms.
    * Something strange happened early on in development: rather than immediately constructing the uncharted overworld areas, I was hit with a sudden desire to add a creek and lake leading from screen 44 to screen 31. And so I did. Do you mind? (I haven't thought of where the whirlpool leads yet, but it may or may not involve ice arrows, or a connection to the river in Forest Temple.)
    * Also, while making the aforementioned river and mounds, I changed (make that corrected) the walkability of several water->grass and grass->mountain combos.
    * Also: I wanted the Mystic Woods to feel more like a forest and less like a whole lot of trees, so I added overhead foliage to some more screens. In doing that I ate a few screens on map 7.

    Some thoughts:
    * Hyrule traditionally contains at least four distinct overworld areas: a forest, a mountain, a big lake, and a desert. (TMC swapped desert for swamp, as did LttP's Dark World) Currently we have the first two at the west and east ends of the overworld, respectively.
    * Rule: the overworld should get progressively less green the further east you travel.
    * I don't know if "Tall Grass->Next", "Bush->Next" or "Flowers->Next" combo types exist in b13, but if they do, I'd very much like to convert all of the Tall Grass, Bush and Grass combos to these types, simply because of the sheer convenience of not having to deal with secret combos. As the amount of rooms in NeoFirst that use these combos is small at the moment (just L1 and the overworld), the process of converting them by hand won't be too consuming.

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    On top of the world ShadowTiger's Avatar
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    Re: Some thoughts about overworld-making

    I'm currently at school, but I'm very, very eager to see what you did with the overworld. :) Just one thing though.
    * Also, while making the aforementioned river and mounds, I changed (make that corrected) the walkability of several water->grass and grass->mountain combos.
    This is one big "Oh No..." for NeoFirst's multi-user construction. Read this thread. So basically, it's okay if you ONLY ADDED to what's there. If all that you're doing is creating screens, placing combos on the screen, and drawing tiles, (Yes, seriously, ONLY those three.) then that's absolutely wonderful. It's like trying to overlap the letter "q" onto the letter "o" ... you've only got about four pixels to add. You don't change the "o" in any way.

    The problems arise when you have to share new combos or share altered combos. Remember, when two versions of the same quest are changed in different ways, it's like trying to combine an "n" and a "q" together. They don't match up right when combined, and something gets overwritten. Know what I mean? That topic I linked to will explain a lot of it. So world construction is best left when you have a solidified version of the graphics pack to work on.

    Remember, tiles aren't the problem. Combos are.



    * I don't know if "Tall Grass->Next", "Bush->Next" or "Flowers->Next" combo types exist in b13, but if they do, I'd very much like to convert all of the Tall Grass, Bush and Grass combos to these types, simply because of the sheer convenience of not having to deal with secret combos. As the amount of rooms in NeoFirst that use these combos is small at the moment (just L1 and the overworld), the process of converting them by hand won't be too consuming.
    I can probably do that this weekend too. :) Although, to keep things "simple," IMHO, when the master tileset is being worked on, nobody else should be working on it as well. Planning and screen creation should be done when we all plan it out.


    If you have something that you want to plan that you know everyone already agreed that we're doing, such as building a cave, you can TELL PEOPLE what screens you're building caves on, what they'll be for, where they'll lead, etc, and everyone else will accept that and start working elsewhere. We just need to actually get started. So if you want to force everyones' hand, by all means, do begin, but just keep these construction guidelines in mind as you do. Otherwise we'll all overwrite each others' work. =/

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    Re: Some thoughts about overworld-making

    When I said "not much", I mean it's only, like, three town screens and two overworld screens. That and the creek in the woods. I'd like to do some more work on Pol Prarie (as I've codenamed my first new section) but the aforementioned hookshot dilemma dampens my spirit.

    I solemnly swear not to mess around with the combos while other people are working on NeoFirst as well.

    Also, not that I was keeping track at the time, but I changed these combos:
    5046
    5047
    6284
    6286
    6292
    6294

    If you have something that you want to plan that you know everyone already agreed that we're doing, such as building a cave, you can TELL PEOPLE what screens you're building caves on, what they'll be for, where they'll lead, etc, and everyone else will accept that and start working elsewhere.
    Map 14 it is! (I'll use 13 for layer 1, and 15 for layer 3. Oh yeah, let's do this thing.)

    P.S - We should write down what maps are used for what.

    1 - opening cutscene
    2 - nuthin'
    3 - nuthin'
    4 - layer 1 for map 5
    5 - *Overworld
    6 - layer 3 for map 5
    7 - layer 5 for map 5 (+ bottomless pit warps for map 9)
    8 - nuthin'
    9 - *Level 001: Forest Temple
    10 - various layers for map 9
    11 - *Caves
    12 - layers for map 11
    13 - layer 1 for map 14
    14 - *Caves 2
    15 - layer 3 for map 14
    16 - nuthin'
    17 - *Level 002: Frostburn/Stonewater Cavern/Grotto (Fire Mode)
    18 - various layers for map 17 (or maybe just nuthin')
    19 - ???

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    On top of the world ShadowTiger's Avatar
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    Re: Some thoughts about overworld-making

    _L_, you're beyond awesome. (Stop it, you're making everyone else look bad. )


    Anyway, ... ... G'haa. ...

    *Takes a look at The Latest Uploaded Version of NeoFirst - The 9/14/06 version*

    Yes, that's the latest version. I suppose I won't be doing any combo work that won't involve jman2050 and Level 2, so you're free to do whatever you want with the overworld combos, so I'll just overwrite whatever I have with whatever you do.

    Okay, here's my take on what the maps will be so far:

    ( Green maps represent maps used strictly for layers. The red number represents the map it's a layer map for, so if you see map 3 as [L3] 7, that means that the whole (Or most..) of map 3 will be used for Map 7's layer 3. Italicized items are "undecided."

    01 - Opening cutscenes, Hub Scenes, (Tutorial vs Play Quest vs Play Credits)
    02 - Tutorials
    03 - Tutorials & Credits
    04 - [L1/2] 5
    05 - Overworld
    06 - [L3/4/5/6] 5 (Whatever is necessary.)
    07 - [L1/2/3/4/5/6] 5, 9, Houses. (May need to change.)
    08 - Probably more layers. I may need to devote it to houses and move the houses from Map 7 into Map 8, and use Layer 5 for more layers.
    09 - Level 1: Forest Temple.
    10 - [L1/2/3/4/5/6] 9
    11 - Caves - Note: The following two layers are used with the IMPORTANT: section of the notes below:
    12 - [L1/2/5/6(As Necessary)] 11
    13 - [L3/4/5/6(As Necessary)] 11
    14 - Level 1: Boss - Action Areas.
    15 - [L1/2] 14
    16 - [L3/4/5/6] 14
    17 - Level 2: Stonewater Cavern - Fire & Ice (One on each 8x8 side.), [L1/2/3/4] 17 (As Necessary)
    18 - [L1/2/3/4] 17 (As Necessary)
    19 - Level 3: Temple Of Light, Temple of Shadows, and [L1/2/3/4] 19
    20 - [L1/2/3/4/5/6] 19
    21 - Cutscenes (Will probably use a lot of Dmaps, but we'll see. )
    22 - [L1/2/3/4/5/6] 21
    23 - Cutscenes (Will probably use a lot of Dmaps, but we'll see. )
    24 - [L1/2/3/4/5/6] 23
    25 - Level 3: Temple of Light ,Temple of Shadows. It's the copy without the puzzles and locked doors, where Zelda follows you everywhere. Think it should use the same layers?
    (DEVELOPER FEEDBACK would be nice! If this isn't necessary, we can skip this map.)
    26 - etc, more planned as we go.




    Notes:
    • Level 2 will be organized as follows in terms of layering: The Fire and Ice Caverns themselves will be centered within their respective 8x8 side of Map 17. Yes, entirely. The boss screens will be in there as well, considering that it's literally only four screens, apparently. :p
    • Layers 1 and 2 can go around Maps 17 and 18. Map 18 is devoted to layers for Level 2, and can be used as necessary. An autolayer can certainly be used if you want, but be warned, autolayers are sort of dangerous to use, as they apply to EVERY SCREEN on that map, so finish the screens on map 18 that matches the shape and structure of what's playable on map 17 before you build anything else on map 18 that doesn't "match" with a playable screen from map 17. Yes, that is very complicated to explain. :p
    • IMPORTANT: I just realized that if we're going to have a full map of caves, then we'll need more maps. Another Dmap, in fact, to handle the other side of the map. So probably, two cave Dmaps just for "normal caves," one for the King of Thieves' caverns, and another for the King of Thieves' himself. Thoughts? This way, we can devote the ENTIRE map #11 to caves, the ENTIRE map #12 to Layer 1/2, and the ENTIRE map #13 to Layers 3/4, and if there are layers 5 and 6 anywhere, they can go in the spare spaces that the other rooms didn't use. This, is what I need your opinions on. QUICKLY, please, because I'm giving out map space right now in another window.
    • So we need to decide on that. We also need to decide on the Houses on map 7. Right now, Map 7 is being used for BOTH houses, and "Whatever layers are needed, place them here" sort of things. Thus, I'm thinking of moving the houses to Map 8, and uses Map 7 and Map 5 for generic layers. Thoughts?

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    Re: Some thoughts about overworld-making

    First: so, what, do I start work on the Latest Uploaded Version or do I keep on with my version?

    I like to have my layers 1 and 2 on the map before layer 0, and layers 3+ on the map after it, as it currently is for the Overworld. 'Cause I can use the < and > keys to switch to one or the other in a single stroke. Then again, I could live without it.

    Also: I want the "Zelda follows you" L3 and the "insane key puzzle" L3 to be the same thing. No reason why not - in fact, Zelda's presence will provide even more potential puzzles.

    I don't have any objections to that IMPORTANT suggestion (anyone else?). Except: why does the Forest Temple boss require an entire map? I was under the assumption that the advent of scripting had relegated the necessity of mass screen-cycling in custom bosses to the annals of history.

    Finally: not to be a nag, but don't forget to check the Music/Tiles contribution topic.

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    On top of the world ShadowTiger's Avatar
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    Re: Some thoughts about overworld-making

    I like to have my layers 1 and 2 on the map before layer 0, and layers 3+ on the map after it, as it currently is for the Overworld. 'Cause I can use the < and > keys to switch to one or the other in a single stroke. Then again, I could live without it.
    I was in the same boat, before I discovered the little circles under the layer checkboxes in that bottom panel. Click the circle corresponding to the layer, and you'll be drawing on that layer instead of layer 0, on the same screen. Damn awesome. :p

    Finally: not to be a nag, but don't forget to check the Music/Tiles contribution topic.
    No, please, nag me. o.o There's a lot to handle here, and every single bit of feedback, criticism, and help is more than constructive, and ever-so useful.


    Also: I want the "Zelda follows you" L3 and the "insane key puzzle" L3 to be the same thing. No reason why not - in fact, Zelda's presence will provide even more potential puzzles.
    If someone wants to script such a thing, go right ahead. I'm just thinking in terms of old-school game mechanics.

    I don't have any objections to that IMPORTANT suggestion (anyone else?). Except: why does the Forest Temple boss require an entire map? I was under the assumption that the advent of scripting had relegated the necessity of mass screen-cycling in custom bosses to the annals of history.
    This boss is an example of "Old-school" custom bossing. It shows you what you can do without scripting. WITH Scripting, well, .... you see how Awesome L2's boss is. Without, you see that it can still be awesome, but it just needs more space and time. :p


    "Old-school."

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    Re: Some thoughts about overworld-making

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowTiger View Post
    I was in the same boat, before I discovered the little circles under the layer checkboxes in that bottom panel. Click the circle corresponding to the layer, and you'll be drawing on that layer instead of layer 0, on the same screen. Damn awesome. :p
    I agree, but I prefer the ability to isolate the entire contents of one layer in the view.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowTiger View Post
    This boss is an example of "Old-school" custom bossing.
    NeoFirst doesn't really need an example of this, does it? I mean, screen-cycling custom bosses already exist in the two highest rated quests at PureZC.

    ...Then again, I suppose there aren't any publicly viewable examples of this sort of thing, are there?

    (In truth, I disliked screen-cycling bosses as soon as I learned of their existence. They seem to me to be analogous to - please forgive me - putting claymation characters in a CG animation feature. Sure, their animation technique was and is technically impressive, but the point is that the rest of Zelda Classic's enemies and creatures are smoothly animated, capable of not-so-basic motion, have much more interaction with Link and Link's items, and emit appropriate sound effects.
    Screen-cycling bosses, in short, are sufficiently limited such that they cannot disguise the fact that they are built outside of the ZC engine - that they are built in spite of the ZC engine.

    Of course, they've potentially gotten a bit easier since 2.10: now we have freeform combos, and the projectile shooter enemies, and some other things that I trust the person who'll be making this monstrousity will be making the fullest use of. Which is sort of a consolation.)

    EDIT: When I said "check the Music/Tiles topic" it was an implied question as to when you'll evaluate the worth of the two bitmaps and one MIDI that I added since your last post there.

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