Problem with the 3rd quest

I have the question: How many 3rd quests does exist?

In my ZC folder I have a file named 3rd

Filesize 426 KB (436.684 Bytes)

Is this THE 3rd quest? And if YES: The final version?

If YES: There is a problem in Level 9. If you go from the entrance up, up, you can't go back, because there is a 1-way shutter. They only way is again up, up, up, up (2x door, 1x bombable wall, 1x walk trough.) The problem begins in the room with the walk trough. If you haven't a key (and after the walk trough no bomb), you must quit the game. If you have bombs, you can go up to the stairs. There is a passageway to another room. There you can go down and there is again a locked door (no problem), but again a walk trough too. Then left to the patra, up to the next room (there is the level map). Here is the other side of the room with the locked door few rooms before. Here you can again bomb the upper wall (again a problem without bombs). But if you have bombs: Bomb, go up, there is again a stair (passageway), so we go this way. Then: You can go down. There is a room with a nice red and long moldorm (and AGAIN a 1-way shutter). The only way is down. There is AGAIN a locked door and finally the final destination, if you have no key. :(

This is not the 3rd quest. It is the 4th quest? :surprised:

https://abload.de/img/4thquestwdjye.png

This is the game, that started after the 2nd quest. Why the 4th and not the 3rd quest? :surprised: :surprised:

And: In BOTH quests there are 1-way-shutters which locks you in rooms without a change to escape, if you have no key.

If you finish the 2nd quest with all 16 hearts, it goes to the 4th instead of the 3rd. And if you beat the 3rd without dying, you jump to the 5th. The idea was to select quests more appropriate to how you play. Do a lot of exploration, you go to the exploration-heavy quest; beat the hard one easily, you skip the easier one.

I don't think any places where you can get stuck would have been fixed. There are one or two places in the NES quests where it's possible, so it probably would be considered acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Joeiiii

This is not the 3rd quest. It is the 4th quest? :surprised:

https://abload.de/img/4thquestwdjye.png

This is the game, that started after the 2nd quest. Why the 4th and not the 3rd quest? :surprised: :surprised:

And: In BOTH quests there are 1-way-shutters which locks you in rooms without a change to escape, if you have no key.

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If you want to try 3rd, use the filename ALPHA

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Originally Posted by ZoriaRPG

If you want to try 3rd, use the filename ALPHA

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I've done this... and cause of this I found a room of no return (in Level 6). I've never thought about it before, but 1-way-shutter could be dangerous and bad. It should not be, that the player must save or retry a game, because of rooms without an entrance. I like Alphadawg's 3rd quest, but the 1-way-shutter problem should be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Saffith

If you finish the 2nd quest with all 16 hearts, it goes to the 4th instead of the 3rd. And if you beat the 3rd without dying, you jump to the 5th. The idea was to select quests more appropriate to how you play. Do a lot of exploration, you go to the exploration-heavy quest; beat the hard one easily, you skip the easier one.

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That is a little bit curious. Who will watch Rambo 1, Rambo 2 and then Rambo 4 instead of Rambo 3? :friendly_wink:

The only exception: Star Wars! Of course 4,5 and 6 and THEN 1, 2 and 3. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Joeiiii

That is a little bit curious. Who will watch Rambo 1, Rambo 2 and then Rambo 4 instead of Rambo 3? :friendly_wink:

The only exception: Star Wars! Of course 4,5 and 6 and THEN 1, 2 and 3. :thumbsup:

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In 2.55, you can disable this behaviour by setting quest_flow = 0 in classic.zmod. THat will cause the quests to run in linear order.

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Originally Posted by ZoriaRPG

In 2.55, you can disable this behaviour by setting quest_flow = 0 in classic.zmod. THat will cause the quests to run in linear order.

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Thats good. :)

But it doesn't solve the real problems in the quests. I found a new one in Level 9 (3rd quest). :(

No bombs = reset! :(


Is Alphadawg's 3rd quest holy? Or would you change something, if I tell you, where the problems are? It isn't necessary to make sensible changes. For example: The last problem I found could be repaired by changing "bombable wall" to "walktrough".

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Originally Posted by Joeiiii

Thats good. :)

But it doesn't solve the real problems in the quests. I found a new one in Level 9 (3rd quest). :(

No bombs = reset! :(


Is Alphadawg's 3rd quest holy? Or would you change something, if I tell you, where the problems are? It isn't necessary to make sensible changes. For example: The last problem I found could be repaired by changing "bombable wall" to "walktrough".

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3rd.qst is the most brutal of the internal quests. That's why it's unlocked after 4th.qst if you do not have mastery of 2nd. Comparing them to films, where chronology affects the plot is silly: The second quest is not a sequel to the first quest, but Zelda II is a sequel to both.

All of the quests have the same story and plot. The first four differ primarily in difficulty, and 5th adds new features from 2.50.

Running out of bombs can be a problem in the normal 1st/2nd NES quests. I recall once, years ago, playing on the FDS, that I ran out of bombs in a dungeon, and being unable to get any drops, I had to do an Up+A save and continue.

Anyway, we don't have unlimited rights to edit the old contest quests. They have a number of issues that we simpl aren't going to correct, because they're still the property of their creators, and distributed with ZC due to winning the contests for their time.

OK. I just wanted to help to make the quest playable without the absolute necessity to reset the game, also referring to the above text from Saffith.

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Originally Posted by Saffith

If you finish the 2nd quest with all 16 hearts, it goes to the 4th instead of the 3rd. And if you beat the 3rd without dying, you jump to the 5th.

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If you WOULD stuck on the NES, because a 1-way-shutter shut down behind you and there isn't a further door and you have no bombs, you must reset the game (if you don't know with the second controller). Dying or reset is almost the same, because you can save thousand times, if you still have only a half heartpeace

A dialog:

people 1: I'm the best zelda player!

people 2: You also beat the 3rd and 4th quest?

people 1: Of course!

people 2: Really?

people 1: YES!!!

people 2: Without dying?

people 1: YEAH! I'm the best!!

people 2: And how many resets?

people 1: ...oh...mhmmhm....

people 2: HOW MANY RESETS?

people 1: Bloody hell! There were 7 resets!

people 2: 7 resets???? Why? You entered a room and there was no way out?

people 1: 3 rooms with no way out and 4 times I saved before they killed me. :(

people 2: HAHAHA!!! LOSER!!

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Originally Posted by Joeiiii

OK. I just wanted to help to make the quest playable without the absolute necessity to reset the game, also referring to the above text from Saffith.

If you WOULD stuck on the NES, because a 1-way-shutter shut down behind you and there isn't a further door and you have no bombs, you must reset the game (if you don't know with the second controller). Dying or reset is almost the same, because you can save thousand times, if you still have only a half heartpeace

A dialog:

people 1: I'm the best zelda player!

people 2: You also beat the 3rd and 4th quest?

people 1: Of course!

people 2: Really?

people 1: YES!!!

people 2: Without dying?

people 1: YEAH! I'm the best!!

people 2: And how many resets?

people 1: ...oh...mhmmhm....

people 2: HOW MANY RESETS?

people 1: Bloody hell! There were 7 resets!

people 2: 7 resets???? Why? You entered a room and there was no way out?

people 1: 3 rooms with no way out and 4 times I saved before they killed me. :(

people 2: HAHAHA!!! LOSER!!

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I don't disagree with fixing this kind of softlock. The problem, is that I do not have the authority to do it, and I don't believe that Alphadawg is around to ask about it. It's completely possible that his design decision to create that sort of situation, was intentional.

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

I would say to definitely fix softlock situations Zoria. Those are unacceptable.

The bug provider should provide video evidence to show it's a real bug and not user error/lack of skill though.

-James

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

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Originally Posted by James24

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

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This is why I've asked for the half-tile trick to be implementable in all versions. I personally want the Zelda mechanics in my quests, but no clue if AlplhaDawg did or not, there's no way to ask him or tell what he wants. This is why I feel it should be a universal emulation feature.

Good point James24.

-James

Well, we should be able to work with the assumption that the version he made the 3rd quest with was the way he intended the game to be played. Clearly ZC changed from the time he made the quest till now, so therefore its only right that ZC revert that change so that people can play the quest as he originally meant it to be played. There's a NES fix rule in 2.53 right now the "correct enemy weapon offset" rule which does this, but it would have to be retrospectively applied to all quests made from the 1.92 era.

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Originally Posted by James24

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

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Ah, this is because the uest was last saved in a 2.50 build. The old build of the quest, from 1.92, should not have this issue. I could also easily make a build of 3rd with that bit enabled, and make it available as a 'more pure' version as extra DLC.

You can toggle the halftile collision for quests made in some specific versions of ZC, from a menu now, because the behaviour was in flux during the development phase of the engine in those versions. This is a user-set patch, but you cannot apply it to 2.50 quests, or any version in which the questmaker could set that as a rule.

Same thing for some other old behaviour, such as windrobe spawning.

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Originally Posted by Gleeok

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

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I could add that as a secondary objective, with one line of code. Not a bad idea, and it seems better than having max hearts, as needing max hearts punishes speedrunners. The entire quest order thing is optional as of 2.55 alpha 2 or so, but in 2.53, this wouldn't be out of line.

Back OT: @Joeiiii Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked?

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Originally Posted by James24

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

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I fixed all those bugs in 2.53. I actually fixed them back in 2.50 as well, but due to another bug added later those fixes stopped working.

Very annoying but at least they've been working for a while now.

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

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Originally Posted by James24

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

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Respect to the original game. Alpha knew as many of the mechanics and things as I did at the time, and the half tile trick adds strategy and keeps Blue Wizzrobes and Windrobes from being OP, if you're smart. I added it to Demo EX 2.50 also (Version 3.0 of Demo) and James Quest as well. This is a Zelda 1 mechanic, and a critical one: it belongs in the game.

-James

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Originally Posted by Gleeok

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

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Sorry for let you wait. :(

One of the problems, to find in Level 6, is in the lower left corner:

https://abload.de/img/level6-1-way-problem0ekgg.png

In the sandy room (from the start of the level up, right, right, up) you can go up or left. If you go left, you have to defeat same Goriya and Keese to get a key. But if you go up, you are in big troubles. Behind you shuts the 1-way-shutter and there is no bombable wall or a walktrough in this and in the further rooms. If you have no key, you have to reset/save.

And almost worse than this 1-way-shutter problem: If you try it again, of course with the key from the left room, you will find in the locked room a stair who brings you to a room one room up from the start screen. :P

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Originally Posted by Gleeok

and what would the proposed fix be?

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I think that a change from 1-way-shutter to a normal shutter would be the best and minimal invasive intervention. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ZoriaRPG

Back OT: @Joeiiii Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked?

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In the example above it wouldn't not help if it is so.

In Level 9 (4th quest) I'm almost sure, that there could be some bomb dropping enemies. But what does bombs help, if you have no key? There is a stair, in the room below is a 1-way-shutter and in the next room you need a key. Even a million bombs doesn't help if you have no key. Without bombs you have the problem a little bit earlier.

But I love the 4th and Level 9 anyway. A sword, two bombs and one fucking key are enough to get the magic key. I bought 4 keys, because I haven't found the right way. :D Now i know, that the magic key is "very easy" to find (because NOW I know the way). :P


Now I'm playing the 5th quest. Quest 3rd.qst and 4th.qst I have played through. My self-made cards of each level are (hopefully) complete. My problem is now: If you ask me something, for example Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked? and I don't know the answer, I must run Zelda Classic, go to the level and have to look, because I haven't a cheat code or the password for the file. And I don't think that you'll give it to me. :P

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Originally Posted by James24

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

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I'm afraid that I do not know the answer here. I opened it to fo a bug with Dodongo sfx introduced by the enginem, but it had already been dsaved in 2.50.1 before that.

My edit fixed that one issue, and it did not affect the original password.

There are a number of changes to 3rd.qst in the SVn history, but there's virtually no information about any of them. The logs suggest there were some design changes, but there's no specific information. And it looks like all that's left of the old repo is the logs, so there's no way to investigate anything we didn't write down.

Why don't you just release the original 1.92 version with all the ZC builds? If there are bugs with it then you can just check the quest rule about correct enemy weapon offset?

Something like that can be done in the Quest DB. Just "Request an Old Quest" in my Discord, I have a copy.

@James24 , your quest request has been fulfilled.

-James