Game Over, Ganon.

<SUCCESSOR> The one thing that bugs me about OoT
<SUCCESSOR> If getting the Master Sword allowed Ganon to take over Hyrule couldn't you just go back to being a kid and never pull out the sword? Game over, nothing too bad happened.
<Charizard> the thing is
<Charizard> when traveling back as a kid
<Charizard> its taking place at the point you drew the master swrod.
* SUCCESSOR waiting for TS to shit all over this theory.
<Charizard> *sword
<SUCCESSOR> No you go back right before you drew the MS.
<Charizard> I don't think so.
<Charizard> Where else would Ganon be at this point?
<SUCCESSOR> That's kinda why Link puts it back to back in time.
<Charizard> huh
<SUCCESSOR> Chasing Zelda down.
<Charizard> at the end?
<SUCCESSOR> Who knows? All we know is that Link pulls out the sword and Ganon gets access to the Sacred Realm.
<SUCCESSOR> Without that he can't do much.
<SUCCESSOR> Sure he overthrew the castle but they could take it back.
<SUCCESSOR> He wouldn't have the Triforce of Power giving him a overwhelming edge.
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<PureZC> [Tim] Baby, your love is brains, and I'm a zombie.
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<SUCCESSOR> Tim will tell you.
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<PureZC> [Rydia] "In the end, we pounce excessively ...for an idiot!" ~Theatrhythm: Final Fantasy
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<SUCCESSOR> Either way once you win Zelda sends you back in time and none of it happens anyway.
<Charizard> well
<Charizard> according to HH Zelda and Link manage to convince Ganondorf is evil.
<Charizard> So maybe.
<Charizard> He didn't have access in the SR.
<Charizard> in the child peroid.
<Charizard> of OoT
<SUCCESSOR> Exactly
<Charizard> but regardless it seems only the master sword could take him down.
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<Charizard> and Link was powerless.
<SUCCESSOR> Basically all you are doing is fighting for a divergent timeline that shouldn't exist.
<SUCCESSOR> Basically all Adult timeline games are creations of the Master Sword.
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<SUCCESSOR> Right, Jared?
<Jared> huh?
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<SUCCESSOR> Exactly
<Charizard> I think Link needed the Master Sword to begin with.
<Charizard> Or at least some kind of legenday blade.
<Charizard> You witness Link getting owned without the Master Sword or Triforce of Courage
<SUCCESSOR> tl;dr: >Link pulls out the Master Sword allowing Ganon to enter the Sacred Realm and conquer Hyrule. >Link can go back in time to right before this happened by putting it back. >Link puts the sword back and goes home.
<Charizard> But the thing is.
<SUCCESSOR> Yes but Link is a child
<SUCCESSOR> Hyrule has armies
<Charizard> > armies
<SUCCESSOR> Ganon overthrough the castle but he doesnt have the Triforce of Power.
<Charizard> > Zant slayed all the knights in that one scene
<SUCCESSOR> Obviously Hyrule must have armies.
<SUCCESSOR> But Zant got his power from Ganon who had the Triforce of Power.
<Charizard> Ganondorf would have found Zelda eventually.
<SUCCESSOR> He didnt
<SUCCESSOR> Not until she revealed herself.
<Charizard> its not like Ganondorf didnt do endangering things in the child peroid of the game
<Charizard> i.e sturred up trouble such as killing the Gurdian of the Kokiri
<SUCCESSOR> The Deku tree was reborn.
<SUCCESSOR> He really didnt do much.
<SUCCESSOR> Except maybe kill the king.
<Charizard> 7 years later.
<Charizard> Maybe OoT was a pointless adventure.
<Charizard> But we got some epic shit going on.
<SUCCESSOR> Yes.
<SUCCESSOR> Aslo if he doesn't get the MS we lose most of the best games.
<SUCCESSOR> Because I mean what's left? MM, TP, and FSA?
<Charizard> WW. :(
<Charizard> I wonder if Zelda should have a second timeline
<Charizard> that has the same lore but not the events in the first.
<SUCCESSOR> WW is an adult timeline game
<Charizard> I know
<Charizard> I was responding to <SUCCESSOR> Aslo if he doesn't get the MS we lose most of the best games.
<SUCCESSOR> I understand now.
<SUCCESSOR> I mourn WW too.
<Charizard> LA...
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<SUCCESSOR> I am not saying it isnt a good story.
<SUCCESSOR> It's just silly that its so simple to just not do it and things are okay.
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<SUCCESSOR> Actually it doesnt make sense.
<SUCCESSOR> TP is in the child era
<SUCCESSOR> How does Ganon have the ToP?
<SUCCESSOR> Maybe they explained it in game and I forget.
<Charizard> because ganondorf invaded the sacred realm or something idk
<Charizard> link and zelda brought him down the justice or something
<SUCCESSOR> That is refering to OoT though
<SUCCESSOR> Adult timeline.
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<SUCCESSOR> Unless there is a missing story of what happens if Link doesnt get the Master Sword.
<_4matsy> Link wins anyway. Zelda 1.
<Charizard> im just going to assume when Link returns the Master Sword to go back to the Child era in OoT.
<Charizard> Ganondorf is in the Sacred Realm.
<SUCCESSOR> That doesnt make sense though
<SUCCESSOR> Ganondorf got access AFTER link drew the MS.
<Charizard> Yeah.
<_4matsy> Sure it does. Zelda 1 and 2 have no Master Sword. Neither do the Four Swords games, no that I think about it...
<Charizard> And he's retruning the Master Sword back from time to time.
<_4matsy> *now
<Charizard> Zelda 1 has the "Magical Sword" which might be a powerful sword like the Master Sword, Phantom Sword, Spirit Sword etc.
<SUCCESSOR> Those take place after Link draws the Master Sword
<Charizard> "Four Swords" same deal
<SUCCESSOR> We're talking about if Link never does.
<SUCCESSOR> Ganon cant take over hyrule without the Triforce of Power which he gets because Link drew the MS.
<_4matsy> oh.
<SUCCESSOR> So Link puts back the sword and Ganon loses.
<_4matsy> Yeah, that makes sense.
<Aevin> Zelda timeline stuff is so convoluted.
<Aevin> Even the official timeline is retconned ...
<SUCCESSOR> Sure the Deku Tree and the King are dead but shit happpens.
<SUCCESSOR> Sealing Ganon doesnt fix that anyway.
<HylianGlaceon> Yeah, the official timeline has so many problems
<SUCCESSOR> BUt I am just talking about OoT
<SUCCESSOR> THough how Ganon got the ToP in TP is beyond me if it is part of the Child timeline.
<TS> If Link didn't draw the Master Sword, we wouldn't have A Link to the Past, and that would be bad.
<TS> >.> <.<
<Aevin> You're arguing that if Link never took the Master Sword, Ganon never would have risen to power?
<HylianGlaceon> From reading about all of it, it seems once TP and the first split came, the timeline began to have a lot of issues
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<SUCCESSOR> Yep
<Aevin> The reason that seems iffy to me is because the Deku Tree and Zelda moved Link forward in order to stop Ganondorf in the first place.
<SUCCESSOR> If Link doesnt draw the master sword(something he could undo anytime in OoT and is undone by Zelda at the end anyway) Ganon doesnt get in the Sacred realm and doesnt Acquire the ToP.
<Aevin> Which is to say ... he would have made a move against Hyrule anyway.


tl;dr:

>OoT Link takes the Master Sword allowing Ganondorf into the Sacred Realm in which he acquires the Triforce of Power and takes over hyrule.
>Link can undo this at any time by putting the Master Sword back and Zelda undoes this anyway once you beat the game.
>Link just puts back the sword and goes home instead of fighting future Ganon and awakening Sages and stuff.
>Shit's okay.

Seriously? What do you guys think of that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SUCCESSOR

tl;dr:

>OoT Link takes the Master Sword allowing Ganondorf into the Sacred Realm in which he acquires the Triforce of Power and takes over hyrule.
>Link can undo this at any time by putting the Master Sword back and Zelda undoes this anyway once you beat the game.
>Link just puts back the sword and goes home instead of fighting future Ganon and awakening Sages and stuff.
>Shit's okay.

Seriously? What do you guys think of that?

---

Letting you know in advance, though I quoted the TL DR I DID read the entire conversation.

I was always under the impression that time ran concurrently in both periods, like it does in Chrono Trigger. That is, a day spent as Adult Link is a day later when you return to being Child Link. The game sort of supports this with the Nabooru childhood quest for the power gauntlets.

As for just putting the sword back, if you take into consideration what I've just proposed then that is no longer an option; Ganondorf already HAS what he was after, the trick has been played and the bets are already only the table.


Finally, the Triforce in the Zelda series seems to defy the definitions of space-time; or rather it appears to be independent from them. When a character becomes attuned to one of the pieces they simultaneously become attuned in ALL realities that play out. Hence if you take the ending where Zelda hits the reset button, she is still attuned to the Wisdom fragment (and thus Ganondorf is still attuned to the Power fragment, as though he did not acquire it in the reset he had possessed it in an alternate timeline. This is supported by Twilight Princess, where he unexpectedly possesses the 'power of the gods' due to the carry-over).



Still, I do agree it's quite a mess and it could have been much more clear.

Couldn't he just not do it? LOLZ!

That's pretty much the main theme of EVERY single RPG game there is.

The "Hero" is actually more of an antagonist than any of the other characters in the game. He usually wakes up, or is dilly dallying with family or friends, then it's up to the player to press some buttons, triggering one incident after another until things escalate to the point of some super high powered battle.

Lufia: Couldn't he just NOT go murdering slimes and get in a fight with Gades?
Chrono Trigger: Couldn't he NOT pillage the people in the town and the forest, go to the castle uninvited and not barge in everywhere he goes?
Zelda: Couldn't he just stay with his friends and also not pillage, raid, plunder, loot, vandalize things. I mean, the kid doesn't even have to eat.. What's he in such a hurry for?
Final Fantasy 1-XX: Couldn't the characters just accept tragedy, mourn for their losses, and make peace with the world they live in, instead of pick fights with every other being on the planet that isn't a walking information kiosk?
Earthbound: That kid should've just went back to bed, everything would've been back to normal by morning.

Edit: This is the exact reason why I'm a fan of the idea of multiple storyline games, the type where the "other side of the story" gets told from a different point of view, and surprise planned prequils.

Like, N person is the protagonist in a game. His family is devastated by X character, whom they eventually come to some climax in the story where there is a resolution, the N "Hero" person is victorious in the end. Everybody is sympathetic and is glad the hero won.

The next year when the prequil comes out, the player learns that the N person's parents were actually just as cruel to everyone else as the X character SEEMED to be, and that if there is any justification in the N person's life whatsoever that, being unbiased towards these characters, the X person was just as justified as N person could have ever been, and in fact, set out to do almost the exact same thing: some sort of revenge ploy to eliminate what he or she perceived as a threat to his or her self.

Having only a few minutes in the introduction cut scenes of the game, it would take an ASSUMPTION to presume N's people were in fact good nice people in the first place.


For example, what if on a whim someone made a Final Fantasy VI Part II and it was revolving around the idea of other characters not really elaborated on in VI itself, but does have connections to the places and characters of VI, Like Figaro, Edgar's parents, Cyan's parents, and Kefka.

At some point in the game the story unfolds to the effect that at some point Kefka's family was actually the royalty of the whole planet, and were nice and generous to all it's inhabitants, but then Figaro's founding fathers decide all the sudden that that's not good enough, because they suddenly want independence and their own rule, even though their belongings don't really belong to them and they were given freedom and life under the guidelines that they were supposed to do normal chores like farming and return some to the rest of the Empire. Suddenly the King of Figaro decides that he'd rather just hunt and be self sufficient and defects from the Empire.. So in turn Kefka decides that that type of rule breaking is a threat to the whole world's system of harmony (as you would notice that, just like this Link go home and everything is fine philosophy, that Edgar and Sabin both go stirring up trouble via combat).. and thus Kefka is actually still only doing what's best for everyone. Cyan's parents decide too, for no reason really other than to follow suit with what Figaro is doing and also decide to stop communications and become independent.
Alternatively it could've been something so silly as Edgar's dad accidentally running over Kefka with a chocobo and that's why he wears makeup like the Joker. So Kefka for whatever reason decides to also suddenly become completely aloof to other people's safety also. Obviously this isn't a good MO in real life, but for the sake of a story it would make sense.

Then there's other things, like mental health and well-being of the Link character himself.
He's not programmed to cook, clean, play otherwise, and all the people around him say the SAME THING, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, and would continue to do that forever, if he doesn't move on and go commit to some looting and violence. That type of redundancy would drive a real man to the brink of insanity and force them to explore other options.

Also, you guys and gals already know this, but there was an "official" press conference release article that stated that the actual timelines of the Zelda series are pretty much in absolutely no way, shape, or form related to each other.

OoT, Ganondorf gets to the ToP because of Link.. LttP, he does it anyway the day before Link wakes up from hibernating or something, it's already like that in the preface story telling, and the story doesn't necessarily indicate any involvement from Link until the point that he wakes up at Uncle's place.

You missed the point, @Zim . It's not that Link caused the overtaking of hyrule. It's that he can undo it just as easily. No other game does this.
@CJC , I don't know if that makes sense either. If Ganon has the Triforce of Power in the child timeline but he isnt sealed then where does he go? He doesnt travel through time like Link so he isn't solely a part of the adult timelines. It would be as if he had the ToP and decided, "you know what? I think I'll go home and pet this thing and do my hair." There are some missing events in the Child timeline.

I always assumed the OoT MasterSword worked as follows:

Kid Link pulls out the Master Sword *is frozen* Awakens as Adult Link 7 years later.

Adult Link puts Master Sword BACK into pedestal *un-frozen???* Kid Link awakens with the Master Sword ALREADY IN THE PEDESTAL. If there was another witness in the Temple of Time watching Kid Link, this person would watch Kid Link pull out the Master Sword, blue light for a second or two, then the light fades away - with Kid Link leaning on the sleeping Master Sword - as though it were a cheap parlor trick. Practically 0 (zero) time left open for anything to happen.

The way the story flows in the game made it seem as though Link becoming an adult was essential. So I agree with the argument of: Leave the Master Sword be; Hyrule is A-Okay for a while longer.

The Destiny Trap- you can't change history if you're a part of it. I think you're all way overthinking this. Of course there are inherent flaws, since there is backwards timetravel involved in the plot. It's not going to be 100% solid, because it can't. The only explaination possible is that Link doesn't return to the instant he pulls the sword when going back in time. Hell, maybe he just goes back seven years exactly each time, so if he is in Adult Link Hyrule for four hours, the sword's vanished for four hours in Child Link Hyrule. Take any explaination you prefer, they're all just as right as they are wrong :P The only reason Link is able to warn Hyrule about Ganon at endgame is Zelda uses her sage powers and Triforce piece to send him back to before he even met her.

As for how Ganon got the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess, it's stated that it was a "divine prank". Flimsy explanation, but that's all we've ever gotten. The best theory I've read about this is, the Triforce isn't a natural relic and exists outside of time, so Ganon obtaining the Triforce of Power in one timeline gave it to him in all other possible timelines. Whether that's what actually happened or not, I dunno, but it makes sense to me.

Canonically, Link never drew the sword in the child timeline, so you're right SUCCESSOR.

True, but the timelines are split and run concurrently. By putting the sword back he fixes the child timeline but the adult timeline of suffering still exists and he feels obligated to fix that shit too.

At the very most, you would either set Alttp back on track or create a completely different timeline.