A proposal for the last level (because it's never too early to plan)

I understand that the content of the last dungeon hasn't been decided. I also know that part of NeoFirst quest's plot involves the creation of a dark world by the extraplanar entity, Lord Menace*. So, here's my proposal: The last dungeon will in fact be an entire "dark overworld".

Now, this'll be quite different to Zelda 3's dark overworld. Its colour scheme won't be dim golden-brown. The music will still be "Ophidian". There won't be any accessible buildings, dungeon entrances and such. There will be the standard dungeon tropes - treasure chests, locked gates, minibosses, the compass and such. It will simply be a "dungeon" that's outdoors and whose design mimics the overworld map.

And, it will have a gimmick - a full-fledged** NPC helper character, in the vein of Wind Waker's sages.

Let me explain further. I mentioned in a previous topic that I'd like Zelda to serve as the quest leader for NeoFirst. Now, the reason Zelda knows about the corrupted Triforce in the beginning is because the taint is displayed on the Triforce of Wisdom, which she has in her castle (or sanctuary or villa). After you get the Triforce of Power from the place where stone flows like water, both Zelda and Wisdom are conspicuously absent. (Yeah, I know, but if NeoFirst was afraid of cliché we wouldn't have either of the first two dungeons.) After some overworld busywork involving the Temple of Light's ruins, you meet Zelda at the start of the last dungeon and together proceed to get the Triforce of Wisdom back.

There won't be any Command Melody to seize play control of her, and you won't be able to give orders ("c'mon" etc.) but she'll have a minor degree of autonomy - moving onto vital switches, opening "secret" doors and possibly using magical attacks on enemies (Nayru's Love SSBM?). It's definitely possible (albeit laborious), and I think it'd be something that many quest makers would like to see an example of.

* What better name for the Enemy of NeoFirst's world than a combination of the screen names of the two authors of First Quest?
** "having the feathers, fit to fly." - Etymonline.com

Hmmm, this sounds interesting. This is for the level that's AFTER the Temple of Light, correct? Good job thinking about that, since we really gotta speed production up here. :p Guess I wasn't the only one thinking ahead when I started asking ST about Level 3. ^_^; Although, you know YOU'RE the one doing this if it's what we're gonna do, right? XD

1) This'll give us a chance to make the actual L3 smaller. Thankyeh Raptor Jesus. ([/4chan])
2) Mock-Poll: Should we make this a "Continue Here Only" area, without being able to go back?
3) Theoretically, it should be a very easy area to make, in terms of overworlds. A small 8x8 area, MAXIMUM. It could even be a 3x6 area.
4) Maybe there can be a few houses, but they'd all be destroyed? Totalled, I mean. Rubble. Not just "a crack here," "a boarded up house there," etc.
5) Summoner miniboss. ^.^ Heh.

Further opinions?

EDIT: ... Okay. This will also imply that there will be no "Boss" of the Shadow Temple. You'll just head straight through L3 without fighting anything worse than a high level enemy. No miniboss either. The treasures of the Temple of Light are stolen and scattered through out the Temple of Shadows seemingly randomly, since it's (Now. ;) ) so small, relative to other dungeons. It hopefully won't be larger than 6x6, or better yet, 5x5. 6x4 is probably better, just for kicks. Maybe even 6x3. Woo. Then again, It'd be nice to have a long stretch of hallway leading up to the portal to the Dark World area you're describing, so better make it an odd 5x3. ... Cool. (Or if you really have to, 7x3.) We might have to.

Besides, I don't expect that much of any new tiles should be necessary to draw. :shrug: We pretty much have everything we need in terms of graphics for the levels themselves. (Once I rip in the portal graphics that Mr. Z and I made.)

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Originally Posted by ShadowTiger

3) Theoretically, it should be a very easy area to make, in terms of overworlds. A small 8x8 area, MAXIMUM.

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I was privately thinking that the dark overworld*'s dimensions would be exactly equal to that of the "light" overworld.

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Originally Posted by ShadowTiger

EDIT: ... Okay. This will also imply that there will be no "Boss" of the Shadow Temple. You'll just head straight through L3 without fighting anything worse than a high level enemy. No miniboss either.

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There's always room for a miniboss!

Also: I think we need to clarify what we're talking about when we say "L3". F'rinstance, where's this Temple of Shadow supposed to be, anyway? I got the impression from reading this that the Temple of Light in the upper-right corner of the map is utterly obliterated.

*I should probably stop calling it an "overworld", since I'm intending it to be as much a dungeon as the other levels.

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I was privately thinking that the dark overworld*'s dimensions would be exactly equal to that of the "light" overworld.

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Okay, how about a compromise. ... A *PART* of the overworld. Considering that it's based nearly around the structures of the non-dark world, I suspect that we'd be using real landmarks. Cliffs, (dead) trees, spots of dirt where houses probably are, etc. (Or something like that.) The question is, where should it lead up to? If we're actually leaving the Temple, would we have to go from the temple in the Dark World, and ... ... where would we go? o.o' Maybe to Link's house equivalent, where there stands a dark and evil castle? .. Or maybe a huge swirling hole in the ground?

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Also: I think we need to clarify what we're talking about when we say "L3". F'rinstance, where's this Temple of Shadow supposed to be, anyway? I got the impression from reading this that the Temple of Light in the upper-right corner of the map is utterly obliterated.

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Obliterated as in, structurally, it still sort of "exists," but it's a shadow of its former glory. You can definitely still walk around a lot of it, though there will be some parts where you obviously can't go due to extraordinary amounts of rubble. The land in front of it though, isn't grass. It's not dirt, nor sand. It's nothing alien, really. It's just ... barren rock. ... I guess. A "windy" midi, with no real substance other than the wind. So L3 is the internal side of it. Here's a quote from chat:


<DarkNation-AG> So, there's no boss battle in the ToS/ToL? Or just a... provisional one?
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> Nope,
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> just hard enemies,
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> portal-jumping,
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> and a keyhunt that'll madden anyone.
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> It'll use a lot of level-specific keys,
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> only there will be quite a few Dmaps used for this.
[12:12] <DarkNation-AG> So, who's designing the temple?
[12:12] <ShadowTiger> So not only level-specific keys,
[12:13] <DarkNation-AG> temple(s)
[12:13] <ShadowTiger> but DOOR specific keys. Well, it's still under way. One temple "is" the other, so you just have to plan one copy of the temple, then make a copy for both temples' doors.
[12:13] <ShadowTiger> All the items are in the temple of Shadows. Stolen from the ToL.
[12:13] <ShadowTiger> As for who's "PLANNING it,"
[12:13] <ShadowTiger> Unless anyone volunteers beforehand, ... ...
[12:13] <ShadowTiger> I'll do it.
[12:14] <DarkNation-AG> I thought I already had volunteered for it.
[12:14] <ShadowTiger> Oh, alright. :P
[12:14] <ShadowTiger> Well there you go. ^^;' Heh, ... feel free to do anything you'd like with it.
[12:14] <ShadowTiger> It doesn't even need any new tiles, really, so it's very easily drawn.
[12:14] <ShadowTiger> It'd be nice to have that method of setting up Relational and Dungeon Carving modes for it though.

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There's always room for a miniboss!

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There's no miniboss in L3. INSTEAD, ... ...

We're fighting Zombie Zelda.

The Log.

Something that'd be nice would be updating the first post in the NeoFirst Progress Tracker topic with these ideas.

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Originally Posted by ShadowTiger

The question is, where should it lead up to? If we're actually leaving the Temple, would we have to go from the temple in the Dark World, and ... ... where would we go? o.o' Maybe to Link's house equivalent, where there stands a dark and evil castle? .. Or maybe a huge swirling hole in the ground?

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I favour two choices:
* The dark parallel of Zelda's castle (tower, cottage - whatever.)
* Dark Forest Temple (which won't necessarily be in a forest.)
Actually, why not make it both? Put the corrupted Triforce of Wisdom in Zelda's Castle, and the Lord Menace battle in Dark Forest Temple.

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Originally Posted by ShadowTiger

We're fighting Zombie Zelda.

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Nice twist! She'd be surrounded by "Dark Nayru's Love", and would use "Dark Din's Fire" and some other spells on you. You'd win the fight when you break the Dark Nayru's Love crystal, at which you or someone would revivify her in cutscene.

I think that the third Triforce piece needs to be in "L3," since you can only unlock the gate to the outside Dark World with all three pieces. Once you unlock it, Zelda rushes ahead of you, (Not sure why yet...) and gets kidnapped. When you're exploring this Darkened World, Zelda will pop up occasionally and fool you with something. Each encounter brings you closer and closer to the realization that she's been twisted and perverted into a dark puppet. I'd guess there should be two brief encounters early on in the dark world, followed by one final encounter a few sceens before the miniboss where you fight and (Hopefully.) Heal Zelda.

Then, I'd suppose, Zelda snaps back into it and follows you back to the Lord Menace's castle.

Wait; .. perhaps it's not a castle. Perhaps it IS Link's House's equivalent! Perhaps Link's house is somehow a source of power that nobody knew about except Lord Menace, so he's using it to draw strength from. This probably means that Link's house will have to be expanded in the light world to accommodate such a thing. A 1x2 Fight. Ooh. :p When you beat his first stage, you advance to the second room (There's no door; just a scrolling screen transition.) and you fight the second and final phase.

If the Triforce of Wisdom is going to be needed in the Temple of Shadows, then we don't really need it to be taken at all. Instead:
* When you get the Triforce of Power, Zelda heads to the Temple of Light of her own accord, with the Triforce of Wisdom in her possession.
* You meet her there, and she's a scripted NPC (as per my first post) throughout the entire Temple of Shadows. Then, both she and Link open the Triforce gate and enter the outside Dark World. Then, the ominous stuff you just described happens. When you defeat her, Link takes her Triforce, giving you the complete set at last (even though it doesn't really matter at that point.)

Who is Lord Menace?

If Lord Menace has the power to seal away the Triforce's power, then he must have some kind of divine essense. Thus, I say that Lord Menace is a demigod, wrought by Chaos (that is, the primal chaos from which the world of Hyrule was lifted), and whose goal is to bring about armageddon and return Hyrule to chaos's fold. He may or may not have attempted this 1024 years earlier, and he might have also made an attempt 1024 years before that. Either way, here he is.

The Sacred Realm (that is, the Golden Land) is the place where the three goddesses departed Hyrule after the creation, so it stands to reason that it would be the place that Lord Menace would enter Hyrule. The reason why the Triforce becomes corrupted/sealed is because they reflect his conquest of the Sacred Realm. The Light Temple is destroyed when he attempts to break through to Hyrule. The Orb of Chaos, Zelda and the Forest Temple boss become his dark puppets due to their prolongued exposure to their corrupted Triforce pieces. (This doesn't happen to Link because, well, he's the Hero. Or maybe he has a faerie bloodline?)

At the beginning of the game, Zelda doesn't know all of this - only that something bad has happened to the Sacred Realm, as indicated by the Triforce of Wisdom's corruption, and that the way into the Sacred Realm requires all three Triforces.

Also... Lord Menace's appearance, I imagine, would be a cross between a titan and an angel that is made of static.

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If the Triforce of Wisdom is going to be needed in the Temple of Shadows, then we don't really need it to be taken at all. Instead:
* When you get the Triforce of Power, Zelda heads to the Temple of Light of her own accord, with the Triforce of Wisdom in her possession.

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I'm not sure. Why would we be going there in the first place then? Level 3 is "Level 3" for a reason. :shrug: IMHO, I still think we should be getting one of the Corrupted (Dampened.) Triforce pieces in there, then Zelda Finds it, and L3 suddenly isn't L3 anymore. It's just a romping ground (Similar to another Overworld.) for you and Zelda to go through to unlock the entrance into the spreading Dark Realm that Lord Menace is creating.

Then Zelda rushes ahead and gets twisted, and you've got your second to last boss: Twisted Zelda. (As described above.)

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Originally Posted by ShadowTiger

I'm not sure. Why would we be going there in the first place then?

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Because between Link and her they have all of the Triforce pieces needed to open the gate! What you do in Level 3 is try to get to the gate.

Also, I said that the Dark overworld would still have locked gates and treasure chests and such, and should be considered an outdoor extension of Level 3. (Not that there'd be a map and compass for that area, though.)

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Because between Link and her they have all of the Triforce pieces needed to open the gate! What you do in Level 3 is try to get to the gate.

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Er ... right. Then we are on the same wavelength on that one then.

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Also, I said that the Dark overworld would still have locked gates and treasure chests and such, and should be considered an outdoor extension of Level 3. (Not that there'd be a map and compass for that area, though.)

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Well, perversions don't necessary add chests and such to them. :p There are chests and treasures in the Temple of Shadows because the monsters stole everything (EVERYTHING) from the temple of Light and brought it into the Temple of Shadows. That's why there's junk just lying around. (Junk, including puzzles, chests with keys, really big chests with blinding arrows in them, etc. :p )

Besides, not having it as an extension just makes it faster to build. All we need to do is copy the area structure, add little obstacles so that it's a fairly linear area, and make the occasional Zelda encounter where you see her pop back in and then she pops back out; discovering that she's been perverted on your third encounter. Then you fight her when you see her next.