Any chance of the new edition of Zelda Classic being made open source?
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Any chance of the new edition of Zelda Classic being made open source?
Highly unlikely.
Why is it highly unlikely?
Imagine the possibilities!
I agree. Highly unliekly for the simple fact that if someone else were to take the project and work on it, they may not do as god a job as the current programmers or other versions would probably be very proprietory about the versions of quests made for it or if a major company that has ties to Nintendo, or if Nintendo themselves got a hold of it...they could finish the program, then charge us to use it. It's simple common sense. Yes, the possibilities could be endless, but you must think of the big picture first.
Also, with it being open source, it would be a WHOLE lot easier to contract a virus onto your PC if someone placed it into the source code. That's my take on it.
djDarkX
The source would only be open for download, you couldn't replace the source on the website that everyone will be using, so your virus paranoia is kind of unfounded.
And a program being made open source does not replace the original developers, it simply lets users tweak the code. With the way copyrights work, Nintendo could not steal it and charge us to use it, since all the code would still be property of the original creators. Besides, Nintendo doesn't seem like that kind of company.
A lot of major game developers make their projects open source so fans can get the most out of the developers' work (Quake, Doom, Tribes).
The first thing I would do if Zelda Classic was open source, is combine it with this open source MMO client (http://www.runuo.com). With some work, we could have a Zelda MMORPG.
What's open source? I know it has to do with the Source Code (which I understand 0%), but nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenphobia
Open Source-"An open source program has its source code distributed allowing programmers to alter and change the original software as much as they like."
Basically, open source means you can see and edit the code that composes a program. It's unlikely that any modification will stray far from the original concept, but the community might come up with some interesting ideas.
Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenphobia
Why do you say wow?
Because of this simple reason: That's amazing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenphobia
WIll it go open source? Who knows? I can't really answer the question right now, just know that the possibility is out there.
I strong support the open source movement! :)
if its open source someone could make a version thats compatible with all previous versions and thus people would possible use that instead of the original.
I really doubt anyone would write something to replace the original, it would be more for personal customizations that aren't related to the goals of the original creators.Quote:
Originally Posted by franpa
The original will always be the best at what it's set out to do.
Alright. Now, with that, what about other people's quests? They either won't work or the custom quests made with that other programmers ZC would be incompatible anyways. So, with that in mind, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. Best thing to do is submit ideas or have other users join the dev team for ZC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenphobia
djDarkX
That's actually one of my few complaints, to play a quest one must have ZC. I know this sounds a little weird at first, but it would be easier to distribute quests to people unfamiliar with ZC.
Yeah, it's fun to show off our work to each other, but it would be nice if the quests were a stand alone product of ZC.
I agree. it'd be nice to be able to make, like, a .exe file for individual quests, that you just open and play, but that's probably a ways off
as for the whole open-source thing, DN has stated in the past that ZC will remain closed-source while he's a part of it. I can only speculate as to why, and I don't know if he's changed his mind since then, but, for the time being, it's closed source. be happy you're able to play it at all; that's where I stand
I feel two ways about the whole quest .exe thing. It'd be cool to just be able to open a quest through an .exe and then have 3 files for that quest like LoZ, and probably be able to customize the menu, and the title screen and such. Although I'd worry about .exes being able to contain viruses or whatnot, since it's been through people other than the real developer's hands. What I think would work nicely is a program made by the developers that converts .qst files into .exes that use their own title screen, etc. and have their own save files, rather than saving to Zelda.sav. That way, we'd still download .qst files, but we'd convert them to .exes ourselves, if we wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by *b*
Also, my guess as to the reason why DN wants to keep it closed-source is the same reason I'd like to keep my own projects closed-source: so nobody can STEAL it. If ZC was open source, someone could take the source code, rewrite some lines, then create a forum for it in some dark corner of the internet, and then people who didn't know any better might show up there and think that THEY created it, and then there could be a big legal dispute if AGN found out about it, and... yeah. Too much of a hassle to worry about someone claiming it as their own.
At the moment there's one official ZC and it's maintained by competent developers, to say the least. In the present form Nintendo accepts it as a fan project and allows it. Further Nintendo knows who to contact - Armageddon Games - should any issues arise.
The name Zelda and anything associated with it is copyright of Nintendo. If ZC went open source then anyone could build their own version with adware, a virus, or start to sell it. All of this could bring negative publicity and, in the worst case, Nintendo withdrawing its approval of ZC. Having it shut down because some people abuse the freedom an open-source ZC would give is the last thing we need. Incidentally I'd imagine AGN would need their approval before open-sourcing it anyway.
Then there is the issue of quests. Anyone can make a quest and password it so that people can play it but not edit it. This is, from reading through past posts, one of the main reasons for keeping ZC closed-source. There's also the large amount of work the developers put into ZC and I understand if they don't want to give it all away for free.
Then there's the issue of the 'relationship' between ZC and AGN. And quite a story it is too, with intrigues and everything. I will say no more on that point than that most of it was before my time here anyway.
I wouldn't chose to open-source it if it was my decision. As long as it is maintained at one place, there's one official ZC, that everone can make quests for and everyone play them with the same program. I doubt if making the source public would really help ZC as such, but that's just my opinion.
Whether the source code could be shown to interested individuals, perhaps under restrictions, that is another matter.
Let me preface this by saying I respect the developers of ZC, and that I certainly wouldn't hold it against them or the ZC community if they choose to keep the program closed source. It is their creation, and they have a right to do as they please. However, I can still make my case and make polite suggestions. :)
The adware or virus complaint is taking the situation a bit far, I mean come on, the people that release viruses want to target a mass audience, and compared to other web communities, ZC is tiny.
If someone takes ZC and starts selling it or abuses it, they are responsible, not the original creators. Really, whats to stop people from selling it now even if its closed source?
Password protection on quests: if someone really wanted to break into a quest and steal content, they would. Thats just how internet security works, where there's a will theres a way.
The quest angle was one I honestly didn't consider, though if the quests could be made it into independent executables, or some file variation (perhaps a ROM type format) the problem of quest compatibility would no longer matter. And honestly, it would be much easier to share our quests with friends.
I think many of you are forgetting why Zelda Classic is great: we are finally able to explore the massive potential of ZC (and Link to the Past for that matter). Look at some of the quests members of the community of created, some bearing little or no resemblance to the original Zelda. Imagine the possibilities: do away with the framed sections of the world, and have the center of the screen be attached to link so when he moves the world is seemless, rather than screen shifts every 5 seconds. We could impliment multiplayer support, imagine romping through a big dungeon with a friend and solving puzzles that are designed for 2 people. Using open source MMO servers, we could make a Zelda style MMO. How cool would that be?
Maybe I'm just a dreamer. It would be cool if the developers did all of this, but it's not fair to demand such things from them, hence me suggesting open source. If anyone is curious about the open source movement, a lot of good has come from it, this is a particular good website for it:
http://opensource.org/index.php
Unfortunately, the reason is the digital rights management built into the player and quest editor. All DRM technologies rely on a "secret handshake" and opening the source would make it easier to find.
What digital rights would be compromised, exactly?
Let's put engine-related issues aside for a moment, and talk about the most important cog in the success of Open Source ZC... The fans.
Fact: Nintendo fans are a cowardly, superstitious lot with a penchant for laziness and in many cases, a lust for power over others. ZC is currently in a position where it can avoid most of that garbage, yet still, some have tried to foist it upon the project anyway.
The community isn't ready for it. As it stands, most people are convinced that Nintendo will crush you like a bug for even having a fan project at all. Truth is, though, they don't have to: It's the hosts, hosts' lawyers, and average joes who do it for them. In reality, Nintendo officially doesn't care as long as nobody's getting paid.
What happens when you take away the controlling satellite of a closed engine under one fairly benevolent and hard-to-bully roof at AGN? Nobody's going to know what to make of it, and a few will know they only want it for themselves or to be destroyed.
A prominent example is the Gaming Universe debacle: They were full of fan projects, one of which was Open Zelda. Open Zelda *was* Open Source and on it's way to being a decent engine for other uses, too. But before it could spread out much, some joker you might recognize as Daniel Barras got it killed by pretending to be Nintendo and having GU shut down (along with several other fan projects) just to cover his own ass.
It's not so much about the technical side as it is about the community side. And if you've been paying attention for the last six years, you'd understand too.
jmho...
DN and Jman have been going great guns with Zelda Classic, I don't know why you would even want it open sourced.
What it needs worse than anything right now is dedicated beta testers.
Hi there, long-time lurker here, but this is important enough to warrent posting. I generally am more active in a community that edits the NES and SNES era originals than I am here, but what I have to say is relevant, as we face the same legal issues and the fears behind opening up a suspicious program for the first time (we've been around since the 90s and no, I've never seen an attempt at a virus).
I think all the concerns expressed in this thread are rather silly, and the advantages of open source have been barely touched upon.
I'll first describe how things would be diferent for the average user if ZC was open source, then cover (and refute) the concerns that've been expressed in this thread so far.
If ZC was open source, there'd be two types of modifications people could expect see. The first would be self-contained, designed to work with a single quest. These would be distributed in zips with quests, much like quest files are now. The only difference would be that you run the provided .exe instead of pointing your existing copy of ZC at the new quest.
The other type of modification would be a general modification, designed to help quest developers. These would work like a combination of what I just described and how resources like the tilesets some kind folk release -- someone would release a useful modified copy of the game, someone else would credit them and include that .exe with their quest.
The only downside of this is that it would be difficult to combine two code modifications without coding experience. This could be alleviated if someone were to make the code more modular (I'm assuming it isn't already, just to be safe), and, additionally, would only hamper the ability to use code modifications, not the ability to use the original ZC.
What type of modifications am I talking about? Well, the obvious starting point is in the small stuff. You could add whatever specialized enemy, boss, item, or tile combo you'd like with just a clear mind and some determination (actual coding experience works too, but you don't really need to know what you're doing -- I certainly didn't when I started). Bigger modifications would also be possible -- someone might edit the editor to be more Windows-friendly, or add a major function to the game. This type of work could even be integrated into the next true version of ZC, if the developers enjoyed it.
And now, concerns and refutations:
--People placing viruses in the source code
The developers can put the source in a license that requires all products made with it to be open source. This means whoever writes a version with a virus will be incapable of hiding said virus, as everyone can see their source code.
Additionally, as it is now, most people get their ZC quests from a few well-regulated central sites. These same sites can be trusted to ferret out versions -- the first person to download a viral quest would alert everyone else. A small chance of hitting a single random person is hardly a good payload for a virus maker -- you'd get better results emailing it to random people.
Concerns of viruses are far overblown -- if you're getting programs from a trustworthy website, there's virtually no risk of viruses from downloads. You're more likely to pick up viruses by just using Internet Explorer for normal browsing.
I'd like to re-iterate that in the community I'm a part of, we download and run eachother's programs all the time, many of them without even the assurance provided by open source, and we have never had a virus problem.
--Incompatable quests
Yes, quests will be incompatable with versions of ZC they're not designed for. Just run the quest with the vanilla ZC available on the main webpage or with the ZC that came with it, and you don't have anything to worry about.
--Theft
Yes, someone might try it. They might even fool a dozen people into thinking "Zelda Kwest" was entirely their creation. Then one of them would stumble on Zelda Quest's page, notice that it existed much longer, and start asking questions, and it'd all be over.
In that community I've mentioned, I've only seen people attempt to steal eachother's work twice, and both times were met almost immediately with the theif being caught, criticized, ostricized, and banned.
--Nintendo will eat you
Nintendo doesn't care about fan projects unless they use so much of Nintendo's content that people will use your fan project instead of Nintendo's product, or they try to make money off it.
Going open source isn't going to magically make you start trying to sell ZC, don't worry. And while going open source will accelerate the pace of development, it won't do so to such a point that people can start cloning the latest Zelda game so well that they're competing with Nintendo.
If you do somehow manage to get ZC so developed that it competes with the current Zelda game (that's Wind Waker or Twilight Princess at the moment, both far cries from ZC's late NES-era graphics), I'll buy you a pony.
--People pretending to be Nintendo will eat you
Yes, people pretending to be Nintendo will try to get you to stop, because people are jerks. Whether they do this or not has nothing to do with the project being open source, though, and it's very easy to protect yourself.
Say the developers get a threatening email from someone pretending to be Nintendo. The correct course of action is to ask for it in paper form (real word from Nintendo should come from snail-mail in the first place), as proof that this is the real Nintendo. This will deter most. If the harasser does go on to send the mail, and it's not from Nintendo of America's address, you can call Nintendo's legal department and tell them they're being impersonated. Nintendo will be quite a bit more concerned about stopping this than they will be about stopping your game. The devs are obviously smart, they probably already planned on doing soemthing this if it ever came up.
Thanks for listening. Now please, help support open source ZC!
I don't see a reason. From what I hear the code is a little unorganized and certainly difficult to add on to. It wasn't written with open-source in mind. I'd much prefer leave it in the hands of people who have earned the right to add on to it.
Also, the idea of fragmentation is very real with ZC. Different groups of people would love to take control of the source. I can only imagine a ZC-AGN, ZC-PZC. and ZC-ZCN. We have enough versions as it is. I quit using ZC when my quest from 1.90 no longer worked in the new versions. :shrug:
I do like the idea of seeing the code someday though, even if I wouldn't have an idea of what to do with it. :thumbsup:
I'm just curious.
Why is it that it seems to be people that haven't really done anything with Zelda Classic are the ones that come in and start threads wanting it to go open source.
The two in this thread, one has 1 post and the other has 11.
I just seems funny that people that really haven't shown that they even know what it can do are the ones that want to get their fingers in there and "make it better"
Maybe it's just the way I'm looking at it?
I don't know, I just like to build quests, and I trust DN and Jman will make the right choices regarding ZC and it's future, they've been doing pretty good so far.
I say it is up to the devolpers. Now me, I am a quest builder too, so I am not that excited for an open source if the program is already there for me to play. However, there are some programmers out there that would be wonders to make the program fit their games.
I say I want it to be left the way it is, only chosen programers can make ZC, however, you never know in the future. Also welcome to the site guys, and please enjoy posting. :P
Just because I haven't posted here a lot doesn't mean I haven't worked with the program and know its strengths, its weaknesses, and at least an idea of its potential. If that makes my opinion less valid, well, I suppose that's fair. But, let me re-emphasize one thing before I go on:Quote:
I'm just curious.
Why is it that it seems to be people that haven't really done anything with Zelda Classic are the ones that come in and start threads wanting it to go open source.
The two in this thread, one has 1 post and the other has 11.
I just seems funny that people that really haven't shown that they even know what it can do are the ones that want to get their fingers in there and "make it better"
I love Zelda Classic and have a great amount of respect for the developers and testers. They have created a phenominal program, which is a selfless service to the Zelda community. My respect and admiration will not diminish because they choose not to share their work.
However, I think we can all agree that ZC has only begun to tap the vast amount of potential that lies within both the Zelda games and the Zelda community. Open sourcing would just allow extra creative minds to tinker with it.
Reading back over my response, it sounds a little rude, for that I apologize.
It was really meant to be a question, which you didn't answer. ;)
Grammatically, the only question you ask is a rhetorical one. If you would like to pose a question directly to me, feel free.
Personally, I'd like to see ZC's source stay closed. It enables them to work out the kinks/bugs, and work with it without any outside trouble. If it went open source, I could forsee a disaster happening to ZC. I'm not saying that it would definitely happen, but there's always the possibility.
And I agree with Freedom that the devs are and will be making the right choices for ZC.
The question being; if you're interested in the project, why haven't you made it a point to join in on the fun earlier and become a part of it, itstead of asking for it to just be handed over at this stage.
It's Kind of like what happens in the suggestions forum, someone will come along and before they even know what the program can do they're suggesting things be added that have been being done in quests, sometimes years before.
It's none of my business anyway, one way or the other, like I said before, I just like building quests, what direction ZC takes, it will take regardless of me.
I've actually been following Zelda Classic for a few months, if you don't believe me, check out my blog (notice the October date):
http://rumorsofmydemise.blogspot.com...xpression.html
Last paragraph if you don't feel like reading it all.
I'm not saying I'm a master at using, far from it. I still have quite a bit to learn before I'm comfortable releasing a quest. Anyways, if you read back over the thread, my primary focus for open sourcing is multiplayer. Apparently, according to the website, a multiplayer feature is part of the plan anyways, my suggestion for open sourcing would merely speed that up.
Look under future plans:
Quote:
Make it easier to create group quests (quests with multiple authors)
Multiplayer/deathmatch feature
Fix swimming in BS-Style animation
I do not mean to be cynical, but how exactly would that speed it up?
More people working on a project generally means it will progress faster.
While I'm not a master programmer, I have experience with RunUO, which was originally designed to allow fan run Ultima Online servers, which I did for 6 months, working on other servers intermittently before and after. When RunUO was first released, (http://www.runuo.com), the core wasn't open source, but all the files that corresponded to skill gain, monsters, etc etc were. With somewhat limited control over the game, fans made huge changes to UO, some so drastic that it hardly resembled the original Ultima. When RunUO released the core, a little over 2 years ago, fans of the system finally had the ability to modify the guts if they so desired. For the most part, tweaks have been minor and most of them kept private. Then I saw this:
https://www.hostilespace.com/ (IE only which sucks).
If you're unfamiliar with what Ultima Online looks like, look at this:
http://www.uo.com/ageofshadows/images/guildbattle.jpg
Hostile Space is built on a heavily modified RunUO core, what was originally Ultima Online, a game focused on killing monsters and collecting loot, was morphed into a game about commanding star ships and exploring a galaxy. As soon as I saw Hostile Space, I instantly thought of Zelda Classic.
So, I ran here, well, I guess it would be an E-run, which is characterized by frantic clicking and typing, to start sharing the idea. Using my experience with open source software (mainly RunUO), I gathered that open sourcing, which allows many programmers to work at once, would probably be the fastest way for a vision like this to be realized. If the developers of ZC want to create a Zelda (or "esque" if copyright infringement is feared) MMO solo, that's fine, I will gladly wait for it and offer my written support.
Or if they choose not to release the source and not persue a multiplayer or MMO angle, that's fine too. It's their property and they're allowed to do what they want with it. But, I can still beg and make suggestions.
WOAH. Now THAT is interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenphobia
I'll just say preemptively to lay off Zenphobia. He speaks good things, even if they neccesarily won't be applied.
Thank you Jman, I am honored by your defence.
Open Source debate aside, since I think we've exhausted that angle, would anyone be interested in a Zelda style MMO?
Technically, it already exists. Graal Online is an MMORPG that looks and plays somewhat like ALttP. In fact, the original levels saved with Graal were .zelda files. :p Now I would like to see multiplayer as a possibility (for Four Swords-esque quests), but I'm not sure about a ZC MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenphobia